Discussion
Personally I feel Honda have taken their eye away from their traditional strengths for some time now, perhaps in search of alternative markets and technologies such as their small jet, the robotics, alternative fuel technology etc.
They used to be very much led in an engineering direction, but looking at their road and racing programs, there doesn't appear to be the strength in depth there once was, and the marketing people have filled the viod.
Honda used to create engineering masterpieces, then forgot to shout about it. Now they do lots of shouting, but forget the masterpieces. This utter drivel about a 'green' F1 effort is a joke, one that's been made at their expense looking at the performances so far this season.
Come to think of it, this is the first time I've ever looked at Honda without being able to name one discipline where they're at the top of the tree, be it racing, road cars or anything else. Apart from making adverts, that is.
They used to be very much led in an engineering direction, but looking at their road and racing programs, there doesn't appear to be the strength in depth there once was, and the marketing people have filled the viod.
Honda used to create engineering masterpieces, then forgot to shout about it. Now they do lots of shouting, but forget the masterpieces. This utter drivel about a 'green' F1 effort is a joke, one that's been made at their expense looking at the performances so far this season.
Come to think of it, this is the first time I've ever looked at Honda without being able to name one discipline where they're at the top of the tree, be it racing, road cars or anything else. Apart from making adverts, that is.
Same as Toyota - there's too much of a power struggle between the Japanese and European operations. It worked with McLaren as they were two seperate entities and concentrated on their own thing whilst the rest of the F1 teams did the same thing (Ferrari were too busy with their own power struggle to master the integrated engine/chassis concept and prior to that Enzo almost had to be bullied to accept that the chassis was as important if not more so).
Honda (nee BAT, nee Tyrrell) should have kept a good proportion of the Tyrrell team on and just provided them with the investment that "Uncle Ken" had been unable to do for many years. There were some good guys there, who never really got the chance to show what they could do because of limited resources - there were some occasional flashes of what might have been (019) and Harvey Postelthwaite did a good job with Hondas own Chassis technology demonstrator for a while - but BAT & Reynard screwed up their chance and I don't think that the team has ever recovered from the poor management structure and politics that have beset the team since inception.
Totally agree with what 10 Pence Short has said.
Going back to the 80s and Honda were at the sharp end of car engineering, both road and race.
Road cars with technologies like double wishbone suspension that were costly but the engineers knew were a superiour system. VTEC engines that revved and generated power like no other. Peerless reliability.
Race engines that dominated Formula 1 for years.
Now they seem to have lost what made them special.
The road cars are technically unimaginitive, and are either dull to look at (Jazz, old Civic) or plain weird (New Civic, New CR-V).
The works race team is a complete disaster from every perspective. The car is slower than last years, neither driver seems to be a motivating force, and the stupid colour scheme and environmental message does them no favours at all.
I am changing my car this year ('97 Civic 3dr, one of the last proper Hondas) - and I'm not planning to buy something from their 2007 range.
Going back to the 80s and Honda were at the sharp end of car engineering, both road and race.
Road cars with technologies like double wishbone suspension that were costly but the engineers knew were a superiour system. VTEC engines that revved and generated power like no other. Peerless reliability.
Race engines that dominated Formula 1 for years.
Now they seem to have lost what made them special.
The road cars are technically unimaginitive, and are either dull to look at (Jazz, old Civic) or plain weird (New Civic, New CR-V).
The works race team is a complete disaster from every perspective. The car is slower than last years, neither driver seems to be a motivating force, and the stupid colour scheme and environmental message does them no favours at all.
I am changing my car this year ('97 Civic 3dr, one of the last proper Hondas) - and I'm not planning to buy something from their 2007 range.
Good thread 2priests.
OK so BAR totally underperformed, fcuked up what was left of Tyrrell causing good staff to move teams, fell for Reynard's pitch and ended up with a dog...Postlethwaite died, but probably would have left in any case....oh, and they built the team around JV, a man with a scant 2 years of F1 experience behind him and not known for his feedback and to like an unconventional driving style.
DR comes on board, disagrees with the direction/clashes with most of the board, perhaps wants a piece of the action?...but brings Honda onboard and puts the bare bones of a decent team in place.
Honda come in with no experience of running a team in F1 and piss off DR who leaves, being replaced by Nick Fry. Willis isn't really a natural leader, in the same mould as Newey (but McLaren and Williams got round this by having a strong support team). Honda think he's too insular, not a team player and contrive to ditch him in favour of someone with no previous F1 experience.
Some question marks over the facilities at Brackley - perhaps BAR didn't invest all their money in state of the art kit?....
The car visibly hasn't changed much since Willis left - a sign of an aero department bereft of original ideas and thoughts?
Can't get much worse can it?....
Oh yes, nearly forgot...the satellite team is wiping the floor with them and has a major aero update ready right now that is very likely to widen the gap...
OK so BAR totally underperformed, fcuked up what was left of Tyrrell causing good staff to move teams, fell for Reynard's pitch and ended up with a dog...Postlethwaite died, but probably would have left in any case....oh, and they built the team around JV, a man with a scant 2 years of F1 experience behind him and not known for his feedback and to like an unconventional driving style.
DR comes on board, disagrees with the direction/clashes with most of the board, perhaps wants a piece of the action?...but brings Honda onboard and puts the bare bones of a decent team in place.
Honda come in with no experience of running a team in F1 and piss off DR who leaves, being replaced by Nick Fry. Willis isn't really a natural leader, in the same mould as Newey (but McLaren and Williams got round this by having a strong support team). Honda think he's too insular, not a team player and contrive to ditch him in favour of someone with no previous F1 experience.
Some question marks over the facilities at Brackley - perhaps BAR didn't invest all their money in state of the art kit?....
The car visibly hasn't changed much since Willis left - a sign of an aero department bereft of original ideas and thoughts?
Can't get much worse can it?....
Oh yes, nearly forgot...the satellite team is wiping the floor with them and has a major aero update ready right now that is very likely to widen the gap...
Eric Mc said:
Honda ran their own GP teams from 1964 to 1968 - although I'm sure any experience gained then would have little relevance to modern F1 racing.
Accepted - but they only won one race didn't they? I could Google it I guess, but my dim memory is filled with things like "Hondola" and overweight cars....
sosidge said:
I am changing my car this year ('97 Civic 3dr, one of the last proper Hondas) - and I'm not planning to buy something from their 2007 range.
www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/225140/
They are still making good cars, but they're just not selling them here. See the 'proper' CTR above : 225bhp from 2.0 litres, producing < 210g/km CO2. Not quite sure about the 0-60 5s (??) that Litchfield quote on their site, but it's an f*g quick for a 2.0 N/A FWD hatch ...
Not sure when the marketing-driven (cynical) side of Honda came about, but if there is blame it's gotta come from the top - me thinks it's probably run by teams of think-tanks, accountants, marketing gurus etc. who have never visited a factory floor, and have more passion for making money than making machines.
It may have been in two races so far this season, but that livery just looks a mess. Looks great in promo shots where it is not moving, is clean and with perfect lighting conditions, but in race trim, the bodywork just looks a mess. I wonder how long before they change it. I bet it won't last through to the end of the season...
Their technical department is very weak, there is conflict at the top end of management, Honda do not understand how to work effectively with the British and financially its a massive moneypit. The Honda (BAR HQ) factory is not great in modern F1 terms and communication across the company is dreadful. What more can anybody say. JB should change teams and Honda should start sacking from the very top downwards and then allow the Brits free reign.
belleair302 said:
Honda do not understand how to work effectively with the British and financially its a massive moneypit. The Honda (BAR HQ) factory is not great in modern F1 terms and communication across the company is dreadful. What more can anybody say. JB should change teams and Honda should start sacking from the very top downwards and then allow the Brits free reign.
Honda can't work with the British? They seemed pretty good with Frank Williams and Ron Dennis!
The factory site is pretty good- I assume they now use a lot of the ex-Reynard space at Brackley now?
10 Pence Short said:
Honda can't work with the British? They seemed pretty good with Frank Williams and Ron Dennis!
Yes, but all they were required to do was to provide the propulsion for these teams. There's a bloody big difference between being an engine supplier and running the whole shooting match...as Honda are now discovering....but BMW are proving that it is possible, provided you put the correct people on place and keep them there.
Honda won at least two GPs in their original foray into F1 in the mid 1960s. Richie Ginther won the last F1 race of the 1.5 litre era (and also the first F1 race won on Goodyear tyres) and John Surtees won the 1967 Italian GP in the Lola designed 3 litre car.
However, Honda's insitence on perservering with that awful air cooled device demonstrated their unwillingness to listen to the experienced Broadley and Surtees - and ultimatley led to the death of Jo Schlessor.
After that, Honda lost heart and withdrew from F1 for 16 years.
However, Honda's insitence on perservering with that awful air cooled device demonstrated their unwillingness to listen to the experienced Broadley and Surtees - and ultimatley led to the death of Jo Schlessor.
After that, Honda lost heart and withdrew from F1 for 16 years.
Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 12th April 09:20
belleair302 said:
Their technical department is very weak, there is conflict at the top end of management, Honda do not understand how to work effectively with the British and financially its a massive moneypit. The Honda (BAR HQ) factory is not great in modern F1 terms and communication across the company is dreadful. What more can anybody say. JB should change teams and Honda should start sacking from the very top downwards and then allow the Brits free reign.
how many times has JB got to change teams? He's made his bed and now he has to lie in it. Schumacher wouldn't have changed teams, he would have worked (did work) night & day to ensure that things changed for the better. the best thing that JB can do now is convince Japan that bringing in Ross Brawn as Team Principal ASAP, and then backing him to the hilt with whatever he needs, is the only course of action open to them.
The big difference is Schumacher arrived at Ferrari as a double World Champion and the team was built around him by Marlboro money, not Ferrari money. jenson Button is not a World Champion, he has little engineering knowledge and does not have the business acumen to make demands from the bosses either in Europe or Asia. Honda's best hope is to get rid of Nick Fry, employ decent team builders and stop the politics. Building engines is a whole different business than building chassis and understanding aerodynamics and sporting regulations. Ross Brawn hs his eyes on McLaren or the Prodrive McLaren team not Honda.
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