A FEW THINGS TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION
Discussion
Hello Chaps,
I have`nt posted for a while because i have basically been up to my eyes in car/trader trouble.....This is how the story begins
January 2007
After a few months of trying to sell my Red 997C2S privatley, with no luck, trying to juggle things betwwen work commitments and such i basically got in touch with a local car dealer/buyer/trader. He told me he would sought everything out and could sell it within days.
Ok so he took all my docs off me and got in touch with porsche finance and got a settlement figure for me. I basically had about 1,500 quid negative equity in the car.
I gave him a cheque for the money..he was to pay this to porsche finance directly. This would leave 46,000 on the car. Which in the worst case, was what the car booked in at.
So i end up handing over all my docs, a cheque for 1,500 quid and the car a few days later.
The car went and he didnt mention anything to me about me cancelling my monthly direct debit to porsche or my insurance..at the time it was costing me a small fortune for the insurance & finance payment.
Any way, I went back to work for a month and kept in touch over the phone and via email (i dont work in the uk, i work in Kazakhstan on, a month on and then a month off 28X28 rotation). So what happened was, the car was sold and he told me to cancel insurance and direct debit payment..this was about 1st or 2nd week in February. I thought the finance would be payed off instantly - well i trusted him/them.
The story continues..i arrived home in February to find the car was sold but i still had the full amount owing on my car. He assured me payment had been sent via cheque, i thought nothing of it. Any way my month at home passed and i went back to work. Same situation again he had sent cheque to porsche and was waiting on them getting it.. As i trusted this bloke i again thought nothing of it.
Then porsche wanted their monthly d.debit payment..i told him he must at least pay the payment on the finance agreement. He paid 5 grand off car. But the rest he was sending another cheque as porsche had lost it/hadnt received it !
So again he sent cheque and in all this i was in the hunt for a 996tt, i found one and actually spoke to a guy off here that was selling his, but i told him i was waiting on the dealer settling account before i could buy his car.
So another month passed and another cheque was lost - this was about the first week in april... I then said to the trader he needed to pay ASAP as i had found another x50 and needed my porsche agreement to be settled before i could take on another car. He again assured me that porsche were goats and it was there fault... In all this me and my partner have been also in the process of trying to buy a barn conv`n. The mortgage company would give us the cash untill this finance was settled. So i got on his back big style....this time porsche got the cheque, money went into account to settle and then bounced !!!!!!!
I rang the trader straight away, he said he had cancelled cheque - as he was going to pay by tt transfer/chaps !!!!!!!!!! ............
This was about middle of april, i am back at work by then.
Any way ... i had found another 996 tt..the perfect one for me IMHO, had spoken to the chap in months previous and he was a great bloke - a true gent. I told him my problem and he said if i paid him a deposit on his car he would hold it for me. So i did and we had a gentlemans agreement.
So last week the dealer/trader sends another cheque and it bounces again..i insist now thats its out of hand and my patience and sanity is being tested. And worst of all my partner was ready to pack he bags - as she made he mind up on me and the house, not me her and the car!
Thought all these days i kept the Bloke i had paid deposit to up to date and also told him i was a in great gratitude of his manner..he assured me we had a deal and hoped i could get my problem sorted.
So i rang my local OPC and asked them there advice..the told me their was TWO finance agreements on the car and the car now had a private plate on it. I rang the dealer/trader and told him if it wasnt sorted by the end of the week i would take serious action.
I informed OPC newcatle of my problem and they offered to help..i told them i would just have to get on his back even more..i did/cause our lass was on mine.
Finally he sent a chaps payment/tt transfer on the thursday 10th May 2007. It cleared and i was finance free on Friday 11th May !!!!!
He told me to ring him and said all the mess was partly his fault and partly porsche`s.. i was just happy to have it sorted after i had been waiting since February for the account to be settled.
UPDATE.. i am now in the middle of purchasing a 996tt black, manual and of course X50. its got low miles, just been serviced, new tyres and 111 point checked and most off all 12 months porsche warranty... so my luck has changed. I cant believe the bloke thats selling it has basically stood by me for 3 weeks waiting on a sale.
I WILL have my new toy for when i get home, hopefully pick it up about 25th may 2007. And i know i`ll be grinning for weeks.
I didnt post this topic to try and get sympathy i just wanted to let people know what had happened and the buy that did this to me was local..cant believe it. The thing is i am just a young lad and i am car mad. Just think if the business and future business he has lost. Its his loss and not mine !!
AND IF ANYONE KNOW`S A GUY CALLED `GUY SIMPSON` ,THATS THE BLOKE I AM BUYING THE 996TT CAR FROM, HE HOLDS HIS OWN AMONG GENTLEMAN, BY ONLY SPEAKING TO THIS BLOKE OVER THE PHONE I AM HUMBLED BY HIS HONESTY AND CONDUCT...NOT LIKE THE LOCAL TRADER- STEALER
The next time i post it`ll be to tell you about my dream..a 911 turbo
Thanks lads & lasses
I have`nt posted for a while because i have basically been up to my eyes in car/trader trouble.....This is how the story begins
January 2007
After a few months of trying to sell my Red 997C2S privatley, with no luck, trying to juggle things betwwen work commitments and such i basically got in touch with a local car dealer/buyer/trader. He told me he would sought everything out and could sell it within days.
Ok so he took all my docs off me and got in touch with porsche finance and got a settlement figure for me. I basically had about 1,500 quid negative equity in the car.
I gave him a cheque for the money..he was to pay this to porsche finance directly. This would leave 46,000 on the car. Which in the worst case, was what the car booked in at.
So i end up handing over all my docs, a cheque for 1,500 quid and the car a few days later.
The car went and he didnt mention anything to me about me cancelling my monthly direct debit to porsche or my insurance..at the time it was costing me a small fortune for the insurance & finance payment.
Any way, I went back to work for a month and kept in touch over the phone and via email (i dont work in the uk, i work in Kazakhstan on, a month on and then a month off 28X28 rotation). So what happened was, the car was sold and he told me to cancel insurance and direct debit payment..this was about 1st or 2nd week in February. I thought the finance would be payed off instantly - well i trusted him/them.
The story continues..i arrived home in February to find the car was sold but i still had the full amount owing on my car. He assured me payment had been sent via cheque, i thought nothing of it. Any way my month at home passed and i went back to work. Same situation again he had sent cheque to porsche and was waiting on them getting it.. As i trusted this bloke i again thought nothing of it.
Then porsche wanted their monthly d.debit payment..i told him he must at least pay the payment on the finance agreement. He paid 5 grand off car. But the rest he was sending another cheque as porsche had lost it/hadnt received it !
So again he sent cheque and in all this i was in the hunt for a 996tt, i found one and actually spoke to a guy off here that was selling his, but i told him i was waiting on the dealer settling account before i could buy his car.
So another month passed and another cheque was lost - this was about the first week in april... I then said to the trader he needed to pay ASAP as i had found another x50 and needed my porsche agreement to be settled before i could take on another car. He again assured me that porsche were goats and it was there fault... In all this me and my partner have been also in the process of trying to buy a barn conv`n. The mortgage company would give us the cash untill this finance was settled. So i got on his back big style....this time porsche got the cheque, money went into account to settle and then bounced !!!!!!!
I rang the trader straight away, he said he had cancelled cheque - as he was going to pay by tt transfer/chaps !!!!!!!!!! ............
This was about middle of april, i am back at work by then.
Any way ... i had found another 996 tt..the perfect one for me IMHO, had spoken to the chap in months previous and he was a great bloke - a true gent. I told him my problem and he said if i paid him a deposit on his car he would hold it for me. So i did and we had a gentlemans agreement.
So last week the dealer/trader sends another cheque and it bounces again..i insist now thats its out of hand and my patience and sanity is being tested. And worst of all my partner was ready to pack he bags - as she made he mind up on me and the house, not me her and the car!
Thought all these days i kept the Bloke i had paid deposit to up to date and also told him i was a in great gratitude of his manner..he assured me we had a deal and hoped i could get my problem sorted.
So i rang my local OPC and asked them there advice..the told me their was TWO finance agreements on the car and the car now had a private plate on it. I rang the dealer/trader and told him if it wasnt sorted by the end of the week i would take serious action.
I informed OPC newcatle of my problem and they offered to help..i told them i would just have to get on his back even more..i did/cause our lass was on mine.
Finally he sent a chaps payment/tt transfer on the thursday 10th May 2007. It cleared and i was finance free on Friday 11th May !!!!!
He told me to ring him and said all the mess was partly his fault and partly porsche`s.. i was just happy to have it sorted after i had been waiting since February for the account to be settled.
UPDATE.. i am now in the middle of purchasing a 996tt black, manual and of course X50. its got low miles, just been serviced, new tyres and 111 point checked and most off all 12 months porsche warranty... so my luck has changed. I cant believe the bloke thats selling it has basically stood by me for 3 weeks waiting on a sale.
I WILL have my new toy for when i get home, hopefully pick it up about 25th may 2007. And i know i`ll be grinning for weeks.
I didnt post this topic to try and get sympathy i just wanted to let people know what had happened and the buy that did this to me was local..cant believe it. The thing is i am just a young lad and i am car mad. Just think if the business and future business he has lost. Its his loss and not mine !!
AND IF ANYONE KNOW`S A GUY CALLED `GUY SIMPSON` ,THATS THE BLOKE I AM BUYING THE 996TT CAR FROM, HE HOLDS HIS OWN AMONG GENTLEMAN, BY ONLY SPEAKING TO THIS BLOKE OVER THE PHONE I AM HUMBLED BY HIS HONESTY AND CONDUCT...NOT LIKE THE LOCAL TRADER- STEALER
The next time i post it`ll be to tell you about my dream..a 911 turbo
Thanks lads & lasses
Hello there,
He told me he would settle finance when car was sold..but when he did sell it i found out there was TWO finance agreements again the car...so did he break any rules/law...and to do with me handing over car..he buys and sells cars for people, so i trusted him to do the business for me....but it took some time. Finally i am out of it and waiting on the end of the month to get into my 996tt x50 !!! cant wait and i plan to keep it for a while
He told me he would settle finance when car was sold..but when he did sell it i found out there was TWO finance agreements again the car...so did he break any rules/law...and to do with me handing over car..he buys and sells cars for people, so i trusted him to do the business for me....but it took some time. Finally i am out of it and waiting on the end of the month to get into my 996tt x50 !!! cant wait and i plan to keep it for a while
Good to hear things came good in the end. 
Find out if the dealer has a consumer credit licence, if he has report him to the OFT, who I would imagine would suspend his licence or take it off him if he has found to be at fault.......if he hasnt he shouldnt be agreeing to settle finance agreements as its against the law to do so without a CCL.
30121980 said:
Hello there,
He told me he would settle finance when car was sold..but when he did sell it i found out there was TWO finance agreements again the car...so did he break any rules/law...and to do with me handing over car..he buys and sells cars for people, so i trusted him to do the business for me....but it took some time. Finally i am out of it and waiting on the end of the month to get into my 996tt x50 !!! cant wait and i plan to keep it for a while
He told me he would settle finance when car was sold..but when he did sell it i found out there was TWO finance agreements again the car...so did he break any rules/law...and to do with me handing over car..he buys and sells cars for people, so i trusted him to do the business for me....but it took some time. Finally i am out of it and waiting on the end of the month to get into my 996tt x50 !!! cant wait and i plan to keep it for a while
Glad this worked out for you in the end. If you don't mind me saying you took a financial risk there since it seems likely that you became an unsecured creditor of his business for a period of time. Had the dealer gone into administration / insolvency after selling your car on but before paying you there is a strong possibility that you would not have recovered any / some part of your money despite the new owner of the car having acquired good title to the car (ie you may also have been unable to claim the car back).
Sounds as though you financed his business for a couple of months.
If it was the other way round do you think he would have let you have a car he was selling on a promise that you would pay him when you got paid. I think not.
You have been lucky this has all worked out in the end.
PL
If it was the other way round do you think he would have let you have a car he was selling on a promise that you would pay him when you got paid. I think not.
You have been lucky this has all worked out in the end.
PL
This is the big problem with sale or return (commision) sales. They can work and several people have & no doubt will again posted glowing reports of how they used dealers to sell cars on an S.O.R basis. The big problem is that with these types of sale the dealer is trying to return more than the car is worth in the trade, (otherwise any dealer worth their salt would simply strike out a cheque for the car). This means that either the car is going to look expensive or the dealer is going to have to work for a very slender margin, his expenses however will be the same as any other garage.
For a dealer the temptation is great, you get a load of lovely cars on your forcourt for nothing & you don`t have to be that good a business because you are getting big cheques in for cars you didn`t have to pay anything for. What can happen is that you get a car out of sync, ie you need to sell another car before you can afford to pay the car that`s just sold. Then two cars out of sync & so on. Most of the garages that go out of business specialise, or do a high proportion of sale or return. Banks & finance companies who provide stocking facilities do so allowing a safety margin (ie they won`t lend 100% of trade or retail prices - a bit like the mortgage on your house). With S.O.R you are, in effect, lending the dealer 100% value of the car. They don`t need to show any financial commitment at all.
When we buy a negative equity car we require cleared funds for the difference from the customer before we settle the finance. This is standard practice as we can not part settle finance in case the customer doesn`t settle the outstanding balance, the finance company won`t release title and we have the car (which we`ve paid for) re-posessed from us. With S.O.R. it becomes very messy. You have a stand off between the dealer who is unwilling (or financially unable) to settle the finance before they are paid for the car (which might be funded by another loan secured on the car !), and the original owner of the car who is unable financially to settle the loan before they are paid for the car by the dealer (which in practice should never happen because the dealer needs to be assured the finance is cleared before they sell the car).
The reality of comission sales is that the only thing the dealer saves is the cost of stocking the car. In crude terms that`s going to be around £125 per £10,000. When the method works is in the case of extremely expensive cars where the cost of stocking the car is significant. Even then there are many dealers who would have no problem buying in a car at £200,000 and the proceeds of the trade price purchase, when invested by the car owner will usually cover much of the difference between the outright purchase trade figure and the estimated sale or return figure. The other time S.O.R works is in the case of extremely hard to value cars where owner & dealer can work together to try & establish a value by "trial and error" marketing.
I hope that helps.
Henry
For a dealer the temptation is great, you get a load of lovely cars on your forcourt for nothing & you don`t have to be that good a business because you are getting big cheques in for cars you didn`t have to pay anything for. What can happen is that you get a car out of sync, ie you need to sell another car before you can afford to pay the car that`s just sold. Then two cars out of sync & so on. Most of the garages that go out of business specialise, or do a high proportion of sale or return. Banks & finance companies who provide stocking facilities do so allowing a safety margin (ie they won`t lend 100% of trade or retail prices - a bit like the mortgage on your house). With S.O.R you are, in effect, lending the dealer 100% value of the car. They don`t need to show any financial commitment at all.
When we buy a negative equity car we require cleared funds for the difference from the customer before we settle the finance. This is standard practice as we can not part settle finance in case the customer doesn`t settle the outstanding balance, the finance company won`t release title and we have the car (which we`ve paid for) re-posessed from us. With S.O.R. it becomes very messy. You have a stand off between the dealer who is unwilling (or financially unable) to settle the finance before they are paid for the car (which might be funded by another loan secured on the car !), and the original owner of the car who is unable financially to settle the loan before they are paid for the car by the dealer (which in practice should never happen because the dealer needs to be assured the finance is cleared before they sell the car).
The reality of comission sales is that the only thing the dealer saves is the cost of stocking the car. In crude terms that`s going to be around £125 per £10,000. When the method works is in the case of extremely expensive cars where the cost of stocking the car is significant. Even then there are many dealers who would have no problem buying in a car at £200,000 and the proceeds of the trade price purchase, when invested by the car owner will usually cover much of the difference between the outright purchase trade figure and the estimated sale or return figure. The other time S.O.R works is in the case of extremely hard to value cars where owner & dealer can work together to try & establish a value by "trial and error" marketing.
I hope that helps.
Henry
ballcock said:
wanta996 said:
So the moral of the story is - be wary of "Small" BoysToys.
.. His patter of 'Morning ladies , now here's a little stunner for you...' always p1ssed me off , and left the impression of 'local wideboy makes good' rather than genuine dealer.
Ah yes it is the guy I'm thinking of. I think he's a former OPC manager.
Hello Chaps,
Just a few things...i trusted this bloke...just too much.
I cant believe the lies and crap he told me. i aint bothered if he had the money or not, it done now and the balance is settled. He has screwed himself out of alot of future business, as i am just a young lad with a genuine love for cars.
Has this happen to anyone else, or has anyone had dealings with this trader/dealer.
Just a few things...i trusted this bloke...just too much.
I cant believe the lies and crap he told me. i aint bothered if he had the money or not, it done now and the balance is settled. He has screwed himself out of alot of future business, as i am just a young lad with a genuine love for cars.
Has this happen to anyone else, or has anyone had dealings with this trader/dealer.
30121980 said:
Hello Chaps,
Just a few things...i trusted this bloke...just too much.
I cant believe the lies and crap he told me. i aint bothered if he had the money or not, it done now and the balance is settled. He has screwed himself out of alot of future business, as i am just a young lad with a genuine love for cars.
Has this happen to anyone else, or has anyone had dealings with this trader/dealer.
Just a few things...i trusted this bloke...just too much.
I cant believe the lies and crap he told me. i aint bothered if he had the money or not, it done now and the balance is settled. He has screwed himself out of alot of future business, as i am just a young lad with a genuine love for cars.
Has this happen to anyone else, or has anyone had dealings with this trader/dealer.
I have dealt with him when looking for my current 911 C4S. He was ok and helped me to source a good car at a decent price.
Like I said gald it worked out ok for you however I would suggest caution with this type of deal in the future - had the dealer in question gone bust mid transaction you could have ended up with no car and no cash.
I have often taken cars on Sale or Return for various reasons and it's never been a problem, but I realise the seller has to trust me to pay them, or pay the finance off, promptly. This has never been a problem of course.
Sale or Return gentlemen's agreements apply equally to cars owned outright or those financed, whether with positive or negative equity. The reason I do it is when a customer wants to realise more for their car than selling to a dealer but doesn't want the hassle of a private sale (further complicated if the prospective buyer requires finance or to part exchange their current car). I never hide the fact that a car is SOR from a prospective customer either. I don't have any bank loan or overdraft facilities and don't want any (so I would defer to Henry's quantification of what it costs to stock a car by this method) so if we're stocked up, SOR is a good solution to us increasing profits and the seller realising more than in the trade. There should be little risk either way for taking a car on SOR. If it doesn't sell quickly this is usually due to the owner wanting too much, but at least we have established the real value by testing the market. We can then re-assess what to do next, be it reduce the price or look for a trade bid. We cover all advertising costs and we insure the car, and don't allocate these to the deal (we have fixed annual costs for both). When it sells, we will be returning the seller an agreed amount or will put any offers forward, usually being very clear how much we are making from the deal (if I return, say, £2000 more than a trade sale then then the seller is happy and would use us again, so why be shy about our cut?). If there's a part exchange we work on the basis of its trade value (based on actual trade bids) and can either share the profit upon retailing the PX car (effectively its another SOR car on behalf of the same seller), or we can sell it in the trade and pass the money along or we can buy it ourselves.
I won't do it for everyone but the ones we do work well. For example, I sold an SOR 2003 GT3 18 months ago (to a PHer) that became a chain of PX cars: 993 C2 coupe, Lotus Elise, Integra Type-R, Volvo V40 estate. We were both much better off for it. Except that I was seen at a Point to Point in a bright Orange Volvo estate with bling alloys. All in the course of testing the car out, you understand (nothing to do with it arriving with lots of petrol!).
I have never been asked to provide a written agreement regarding SOR cars but would happily do so. I guess the main issue here is trust and honour. A good reputation is easily lost as demonstrated in this case. You can successfully realise more for your car by letting a dealer sell it for you, just be careful who you choose.
Sale or Return gentlemen's agreements apply equally to cars owned outright or those financed, whether with positive or negative equity. The reason I do it is when a customer wants to realise more for their car than selling to a dealer but doesn't want the hassle of a private sale (further complicated if the prospective buyer requires finance or to part exchange their current car). I never hide the fact that a car is SOR from a prospective customer either. I don't have any bank loan or overdraft facilities and don't want any (so I would defer to Henry's quantification of what it costs to stock a car by this method) so if we're stocked up, SOR is a good solution to us increasing profits and the seller realising more than in the trade. There should be little risk either way for taking a car on SOR. If it doesn't sell quickly this is usually due to the owner wanting too much, but at least we have established the real value by testing the market. We can then re-assess what to do next, be it reduce the price or look for a trade bid. We cover all advertising costs and we insure the car, and don't allocate these to the deal (we have fixed annual costs for both). When it sells, we will be returning the seller an agreed amount or will put any offers forward, usually being very clear how much we are making from the deal (if I return, say, £2000 more than a trade sale then then the seller is happy and would use us again, so why be shy about our cut?). If there's a part exchange we work on the basis of its trade value (based on actual trade bids) and can either share the profit upon retailing the PX car (effectively its another SOR car on behalf of the same seller), or we can sell it in the trade and pass the money along or we can buy it ourselves.
I won't do it for everyone but the ones we do work well. For example, I sold an SOR 2003 GT3 18 months ago (to a PHer) that became a chain of PX cars: 993 C2 coupe, Lotus Elise, Integra Type-R, Volvo V40 estate. We were both much better off for it. Except that I was seen at a Point to Point in a bright Orange Volvo estate with bling alloys. All in the course of testing the car out, you understand (nothing to do with it arriving with lots of petrol!).
I have never been asked to provide a written agreement regarding SOR cars but would happily do so. I guess the main issue here is trust and honour. A good reputation is easily lost as demonstrated in this case. You can successfully realise more for your car by letting a dealer sell it for you, just be careful who you choose.
thegoose said:
There should be little risk either way for taking a car on SOR.
I have never been asked to provide a written agreement regarding SOR cars but would happily do so.
I have never been asked to provide a written agreement regarding SOR cars but would happily do so.
There is always a risk for the ultimate vendor in doing a SOR transaction - especially in instances when there is no supporting paperwork. Suppose that I give my car to your company to sell on my behalf and then (heaven forbid) your company goes into administration before my car is sold. Absent detailed and very clear paper work to the contrary (including retention of title clauses etc etc) the administrator of your company will claim that the car is an asset of the business in administration, that I am not entitled to recover the car and that I am in fact an unsecured creditor and must take my chances along with all the other unsecured creditors. In this circumstance I could incur legal costs (which I might not recover) to try and prove that the substance of the arrangement is such that I and not your company is the current legal owner of the car. Clearly I may fail to prove this. Alternatively I can wait and see what I might recover from the business in terms of monies due to me as an unsecured creditor. This may not be the full value of the car and after the preferential creditors and secured creditors have been settled there may be nothing left at all. Equally in the event my car is sold however your company has not paid me prior to administration I am likely to be an unsecured creditor will all the risks above.
No disrespect intended I’m sure your business is sound. However anyone who does do a SOR deal on a car is well advised to get their ducks in a row in terms of pretecting themselves with an appropriate contract prior to doing so otherwise the above can and does happen.
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