The best way to remove overtightened wheel bolts?
Discussion
Hi guys,
Seems that either the tyre fitters or a Lotus main dealer have SERIOUSLY overtightened my wheel bolts. They both blame the other and it will take too long to get either to take responsibility for sorting it out - I am feking mad about this but I just want it sorted and the car back on the road as quick as possible.
The situation is that I have two normal bolts and a locking bolt on the drivers side rear of my S2 111S that won't come out. The force applied in efforts so far has for the locking bolt chewed up the locking key without moving the bolt. As for the normal bolts I have snapped the knuckle on a breaker bar and Protyre (most profesional tyre place I know in the area) actually ended up snapping the Lotus supplied adaptor/extender bar head (which is not exactly small or weak).
Does anyone know the best way to get these out? Idealy with a low risk of damaging anything except the bolts which I'm going to replace anyway.
Really appreciate any advice...
Seems that either the tyre fitters or a Lotus main dealer have SERIOUSLY overtightened my wheel bolts. They both blame the other and it will take too long to get either to take responsibility for sorting it out - I am feking mad about this but I just want it sorted and the car back on the road as quick as possible.
The situation is that I have two normal bolts and a locking bolt on the drivers side rear of my S2 111S that won't come out. The force applied in efforts so far has for the locking bolt chewed up the locking key without moving the bolt. As for the normal bolts I have snapped the knuckle on a breaker bar and Protyre (most profesional tyre place I know in the area) actually ended up snapping the Lotus supplied adaptor/extender bar head (which is not exactly small or weak).
Does anyone know the best way to get these out? Idealy with a low risk of damaging anything except the bolts which I'm going to replace anyway.
Really appreciate any advice...
Perhaps a cold chisel with a big mallet when all other extention/breaker bar attempts have been exhausted...or as a last resort drill`em out..Just laying your options on the table...I`m unsure if heat with a blowtorch would be any use here...I`m sure there might be a few tricks from the trade posted from members who have seen a similar problem....Best of luck
They are a right PITA when that happens 
Rounding off the locking wheel nut has happened to me twice and on each occassion I've given up and handed the car to Sinclaires to sort them out - been told that a more powerful air jack, some heavy duty persuasion and lots of patience and probably not inconsiderable cussing and sweating is required
Rounding off the locking wheel nut has happened to me twice and on each occassion I've given up and handed the car to Sinclaires to sort them out - been told that a more powerful air jack, some heavy duty persuasion and lots of patience and probably not inconsiderable cussing and sweating is required
Otherwise, if the set up is a standard bolt on a thread, you can, as FM says, drill the bolt off. This takes a fair amount of patience, as you must NOT drill the threads.
The best first time advice is to drill about 5mm from the thread, a hole right through the bolt. Then another on top, another....until the bolt is cut from 5mm up to its edge.
You can then get the chisel in and split the bolt.If not, you have to work carefully down and closer to the threads on the holding screw.
There are 'nutbreakers' on the market which do this, but I am not sure they can handle the bigger bolts.
The best first time advice is to drill about 5mm from the thread, a hole right through the bolt. Then another on top, another....until the bolt is cut from 5mm up to its edge.
You can then get the chisel in and split the bolt.If not, you have to work carefully down and closer to the threads on the holding screw.
There are 'nutbreakers' on the market which do this, but I am not sure they can handle the bigger bolts.
The best way to do this would be to apply some penetrating oil then use a "barstard bar". A very long extention bar with a lot of leverage, if that is unsuccessful then an impact driver is good but probably the best would be a pneumatic wrench. The pneumatic wrench will apply thausands of "taps" to the bolt untill it loosens. The weak link here is the adapter that goes into the wheel nut, this is likely to be the weakest point and most probable to chew up leaving you in an impossible and incredibly bad situation which could mean the destruction of the wheel. TBH, I would find a very capable professional to do this job.
This is all rubbish.
I understand how the dealer in question applies new tyres to the cars. They supply the tyres and then send the car to protyre to put the tyres on as they do not have tyre fitting facilities.
From what you are saying, someware in this mess some idiot has used the wrong setting on a torque wrench and stood on it untill breaking point.
IT DOESNT MATTER WHO!
You took your car to the service centre for new tyres, it came back buggered. It is thier problem to fix. Tell them to fix and then sort out responsibility as this is not your problem.
We all know the service centre in question, they have mullered my car (3 times), they have screwed up MiniD's and a few other BoLOCs, every time we see the same wiggle and shirking of responsibility, even the poor guy on Seloc who ended up with a smashed clam and a botched repair job. These guys are car butchers.
If it was me, I would give them 24 hours to fix the car to new, if this deadline was missed I would have the car trailored to Specialised paintwork, Plans or Sportmotive, I would hire a car that would make me happy - not the 1.2 punto bullshit that people seem to be palmed off with, and charge it all back to them, I would then ask my solicitor to "sort out the blame".
IT IS AN ABSOLUTE BLOODY DISGRACE THAT YOUR CAR HAS COME HOME UNDRIVEABLE FROM A SIMPLE JOB. Then you are trying to fix thier mess!!!!
At some point these guys heve to get serious and offer a premium service and stop shagging our cars and then expecting us to pay for it. They have no hesitation to leave us in the poo, it is not acceptable. Make it thier problem in no uncertain terms.
This is all rubbish.
I understand how the dealer in question applies new tyres to the cars. They supply the tyres and then send the car to protyre to put the tyres on as they do not have tyre fitting facilities.
From what you are saying, someware in this mess some idiot has used the wrong setting on a torque wrench and stood on it untill breaking point.
IT DOESNT MATTER WHO!
You took your car to the service centre for new tyres, it came back buggered. It is thier problem to fix. Tell them to fix and then sort out responsibility as this is not your problem.
We all know the service centre in question, they have mullered my car (3 times), they have screwed up MiniD's and a few other BoLOCs, every time we see the same wiggle and shirking of responsibility, even the poor guy on Seloc who ended up with a smashed clam and a botched repair job. These guys are car butchers.
If it was me, I would give them 24 hours to fix the car to new, if this deadline was missed I would have the car trailored to Specialised paintwork, Plans or Sportmotive, I would hire a car that would make me happy - not the 1.2 punto bullshit that people seem to be palmed off with, and charge it all back to them, I would then ask my solicitor to "sort out the blame".
IT IS AN ABSOLUTE BLOODY DISGRACE THAT YOUR CAR HAS COME HOME UNDRIVEABLE FROM A SIMPLE JOB. Then you are trying to fix thier mess!!!!
At some point these guys heve to get serious and offer a premium service and stop shagging our cars and then expecting us to pay for it. They have no hesitation to leave us in the poo, it is not acceptable. Make it thier problem in no uncertain terms.
Edited by Gooby on Saturday 26th May 21:09
Agree with Gooby - you shouldn't have to bust your balls over this.
If they've been torqued up enough so you can't get the nuts off easily with a 2ft breaker bar then I'd guess not only the studs, but the nuts and possibly the wheels themselves have been fooked up by these arse monkeys. I'd be after someone's blood myself and would probably visit their premises with the aforementioned breaker bar wanting full compensation.
In a perfect world a 19mm socket and 3ft torque wrench will get them off with little effort. Not a decent way to treat a torque wrench - unless you keep a cheap one specifically for such surgery.
Could you please mention both the Lotus dealer and tyre fitter for future reference. Sounds like either/both parties have fed you a right old sack o' sh*te. It should be easy enough to work out who had the wheels off last !!! Have Lotus done a service involving brake bleeding etc. since the tyres were fitted or could they not get them off - end of!
If they've been torqued up enough so you can't get the nuts off easily with a 2ft breaker bar then I'd guess not only the studs, but the nuts and possibly the wheels themselves have been fooked up by these arse monkeys. I'd be after someone's blood myself and would probably visit their premises with the aforementioned breaker bar wanting full compensation.
In a perfect world a 19mm socket and 3ft torque wrench will get them off with little effort. Not a decent way to treat a torque wrench - unless you keep a cheap one specifically for such surgery.
Could you please mention both the Lotus dealer and tyre fitter for future reference. Sounds like either/both parties have fed you a right old sack o' sh*te. It should be easy enough to work out who had the wheels off last !!! Have Lotus done a service involving brake bleeding etc. since the tyres were fitted or could they not get them off - end of!
Edited by cinqster on Sunday 27th May 01:41
Edited by cinqster on Sunday 27th May 01:52
Edited by cinqster on Sunday 27th May 01:54
cinqster said:
In a perfect world a 19mm socket and 3ft torque wrench will get them off with little effort. Not a decent way to treat a torque wrench - unless you keep a cheap one specifically for such surgery.
Torque wrenches might look like breaker bars at first glance but you want a proper breaker bar if you're applying brute force.I have a good friend of mine who was in the very same position 2 years ago.
Got all the wheels off except one.
He also had 2 ordinary wheel bolts, and two locking bolts,
We got the locking ones off eventually by hammering on an undersize socket, and we really did hammer.
But the 2 ordinarry bolts just rounded.
The last resort was to deflate the tyre, and break the alloy wheel, we just used a big lump hammer and a couple of different size cold chissels.
Sad I know, but there you have it.
he was able to get a single wheel as they were still current and not out of stock.
ps.
this was on a Ford.
Got all the wheels off except one.
He also had 2 ordinary wheel bolts, and two locking bolts,
We got the locking ones off eventually by hammering on an undersize socket, and we really did hammer.
But the 2 ordinarry bolts just rounded.
The last resort was to deflate the tyre, and break the alloy wheel, we just used a big lump hammer and a couple of different size cold chissels.
Sad I know, but there you have it.
he was able to get a single wheel as they were still current and not out of stock.
ps.
this was on a Ford.
Edited by UK_WS6 on Sunday 27th May 11:31
Moral of the story - do it yourself. On an S2 or an S1 there are specific torque settings - exceed these by even 10 ft/lb and you may have a hell of a job getting the wheels off. Tyre places never seem to bother to torque correctly - even dealers don't bother at times and pneumatic wrenches are death to wheelnuts. I swap between track wheels and road wheels around 30 times a year. That is one set off, next set on - trackday, then reverse the procedure. That means torquing the wheelnuts around 60 times a year. I bought a jack and a torque wrench. My wheelnuts still look pristine, they come off easily and never loosen under hard use.
I am cheeky enough to take my own jack and torque wrench and remove the wheels myself even when I get tyres changed.
In this case, the dealer better fix the problem, report it to lotus as well. Then get a torque wrench. It takes less than a minute to correctly torque all the wheelnuts.
I am cheeky enough to take my own jack and torque wrench and remove the wheels myself even when I get tyres changed.
In this case, the dealer better fix the problem, report it to lotus as well. Then get a torque wrench. It takes less than a minute to correctly torque all the wheelnuts.
The more I read about stories like this - and it is getting more and more frequent - the more I begin to think it makes most sense to buy a car WITHOUT a FSH or a dealer ever having touched it.
It seems ridiculous that many owners pay thousands of pounds having their cars serviced, yet get them back either damaged or in crap condition.
It seems ridiculous that many owners pay thousands of pounds having their cars serviced, yet get them back either damaged or in crap condition.
Sorry, long post but just to give a better idea of what went on...
The order of events went as follows. Got new rear tyres through an online tyre company last August, who sent round a contractor to fit as they don't have their own depo in my area in London. I watched them change the tyres and they did not do anything abnormal that I saw. The car was then serviced at a Lotus main dealer a month later. I have not touched the wheels since.
So if the dealer carried out the A service correctly, the wheels would have been last removed and replaced by them.
I come to remove the wheels last week (to change the brake pads) and find they have been wildly overtightened. I have screwed a locking key (replacement £25!), snapped a Snap-on breaker bar nuckle, and Protyre the local and un-involved in the original problem snapped the original Lotus extender bar (when helping me out to try and get them off, they have been pretty good) (replacement £6).
At this point I won't name either company or go into exactly what they have said but once it is resolved one way or another I will PM anyone who is interested the names of the companies (to avoid the PH name and shame laws). I will say that on this occasion the dealer is not the service centre who other BoLOCs have had their problems with, but one that actually has a good reputation on here and some of the BoLOCs use.
Being based in London during the week I only have a couple of weekends to be with the car and get it sorted before Le Mans (and it MUST be sorted for that)- that combined with the desire not to give the car back to someone who feked it up so wildly is why I am trying to sort it myself.
Saying all that, Gooby your right with the attitude, they fuked it - they fix it, I just feel at least I am in control of the situation if I do it myself.
Thanks to everyone for the advice. I'm going up to a mates barn/workshop this afternoon to have another go using the various ideas.
MiniDiva, thats a really kind offer. I am down in the area, I think you actually live literally round the corner from my base down here (always saw your car and a landy parked outside near Wst B). I will see where I get this afternoon and will give you a call if I have no luck.
Its the locking nut I am most concerned about at the delacacy of the design is inherantly weaker than the other bolt heads and distorts then twists off much easier.
The moralof the story so far is as Shangani said - do it yourself, or at least watch like a hawk. This is such a big
up, its not like they were 'slightly' overtightened but stupidly and ignorantly overtightened. It seems the number of places you can trust has droped to a very small number.
Wish me luck, I'll keep you posted.
Christian
The order of events went as follows. Got new rear tyres through an online tyre company last August, who sent round a contractor to fit as they don't have their own depo in my area in London. I watched them change the tyres and they did not do anything abnormal that I saw. The car was then serviced at a Lotus main dealer a month later. I have not touched the wheels since.
So if the dealer carried out the A service correctly, the wheels would have been last removed and replaced by them.
I come to remove the wheels last week (to change the brake pads) and find they have been wildly overtightened. I have screwed a locking key (replacement £25!), snapped a Snap-on breaker bar nuckle, and Protyre the local and un-involved in the original problem snapped the original Lotus extender bar (when helping me out to try and get them off, they have been pretty good) (replacement £6).
At this point I won't name either company or go into exactly what they have said but once it is resolved one way or another I will PM anyone who is interested the names of the companies (to avoid the PH name and shame laws). I will say that on this occasion the dealer is not the service centre who other BoLOCs have had their problems with, but one that actually has a good reputation on here and some of the BoLOCs use.
Being based in London during the week I only have a couple of weekends to be with the car and get it sorted before Le Mans (and it MUST be sorted for that)- that combined with the desire not to give the car back to someone who feked it up so wildly is why I am trying to sort it myself.
Saying all that, Gooby your right with the attitude, they fuked it - they fix it, I just feel at least I am in control of the situation if I do it myself.
Thanks to everyone for the advice. I'm going up to a mates barn/workshop this afternoon to have another go using the various ideas.
MiniDiva, thats a really kind offer. I am down in the area, I think you actually live literally round the corner from my base down here (always saw your car and a landy parked outside near Wst B). I will see where I get this afternoon and will give you a call if I have no luck.
Its the locking nut I am most concerned about at the delacacy of the design is inherantly weaker than the other bolt heads and distorts then twists off much easier.
The moralof the story so far is as Shangani said - do it yourself, or at least watch like a hawk. This is such a big
up, its not like they were 'slightly' overtightened but stupidly and ignorantly overtightened. It seems the number of places you can trust has droped to a very small number.Wish me luck, I'll keep you posted.
Christian
Edited by ChristianM on Sunday 27th May 14:17
Worked on the car over the last couple of days.
Tried most of the suggestions but essentially, the simultaneous use of an air gun plus a two foot long breaker bar with some one leaning on it would not losen the nuts, nor would the use of a meter long breaker bar with tapping to shock the thread so we resorted to drilling.
Drilling the centre out of the normal bolts allowed them to collapse slightly, realeaving the pressure and allowing us to get them out in one piece.
Problem now stands that the locking nut requires about twice the amount of drilling and is made of much harder metal, as in incredibly hard. The two normal bolts were dilled out in 30-60 mins but after 30-60 mins of drilling on the locking nut, we are less that 2mm in with a 4mm drill bit.
We have tried drilling with Bosh Titanium range (I believe) and B&D Prianah Bullets but getting no where.
Does any one have any reccomendations on drill bits that will tackle this extremely hard metal and where I can buy or rent them? Probably wise not to post on here to avoid it becoming general knowledge but PM through my profile.
Once again, any advice appreciated, cheers.
Tried most of the suggestions but essentially, the simultaneous use of an air gun plus a two foot long breaker bar with some one leaning on it would not losen the nuts, nor would the use of a meter long breaker bar with tapping to shock the thread so we resorted to drilling
. Drilling the centre out of the normal bolts allowed them to collapse slightly, realeaving the pressure and allowing us to get them out in one piece.
Problem now stands that the locking nut requires about twice the amount of drilling and is made of much harder metal, as in incredibly hard. The two normal bolts were dilled out in 30-60 mins but after 30-60 mins of drilling on the locking nut, we are less that 2mm in with a 4mm drill bit.
We have tried drilling with Bosh Titanium range (I believe) and B&D Prianah Bullets but getting no where.
Does any one have any reccomendations on drill bits that will tackle this extremely hard metal and where I can buy or rent them? Probably wise not to post on here to avoid it becoming general knowledge but PM through my profile.
Once again, any advice appreciated, cheers.
Edited by ChristianM on Monday 28th May 20:43
On an old golf I had no tool for the locking wheel nuts. A guy with an acetylene torch cut them off. I didn't watch but only one wheel had a slight 'singe' on one of the alloys.
I didn't watch him do it, but was well impressed with the result.
If the other option is cracking the wheel it's worth trying.
I didn't watch him do it, but was well impressed with the result.
If the other option is cracking the wheel it's worth trying.
ChristianM said:
Does any one have any recomendations on drill bits that will tackle this extremely hard metal and where I can buy or rent them?
Sounds like that is wearing rather than cutting i.e. it's blunt or not hard enough. Spark erosion would be one option, if you can get the hub to an engineering shop that does this.I am trying to think of a method which doesnt involve destroying the wheel. I would suggest applying heat but with the size and location of the nut, the wheel will probably be damaged serverley and the magnesium content of the wheel alloy would probably take the car with it.....
To drill a locking wheel nut you will need a serious drill... Not a B&Q special,
Spark erosion... not viable, would cost a fortune for such a huge job...
Can the stud be broken or drilled out?
To drill a locking wheel nut you will need a serious drill... Not a B&Q special,
Spark erosion... not viable, would cost a fortune for such a huge job...
Can the stud be broken or drilled out?
The drill bits are new and sharp, drilling slowly and with lubrication is just polishing the surface. I guess it is designed to withstand drilling being the locking bolt.
The real bitch with this is that the bolts are counter sunk quite a long way on the rear and are a very snug fit so you can't get anything round the outside. If you look at this particular lock nut design you can see how delecate it is and how hard it is to get something to grip it.
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5563023
Apparently spark eroding is expensive and the wheel would have to be verticly, ie off the car.
Someone suggested trying to weld a bar to the top of the nut but im not sure that's safe or fesable.
Apparently if I knew what the bolt is made of we could find the right dril bit, I'm going to call lotus tomorrow but can't imagine jane/jim/bob in customer service will know and if they did would they give the info out, I doubt it.
The real bitch with this is that the bolts are counter sunk quite a long way on the rear and are a very snug fit so you can't get anything round the outside. If you look at this particular lock nut design you can see how delecate it is and how hard it is to get something to grip it.
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5563023
Apparently spark eroding is expensive and the wheel would have to be verticly, ie off the car.
Someone suggested trying to weld a bar to the top of the nut but im not sure that's safe or fesable.
Apparently if I knew what the bolt is made of we could find the right dril bit, I'm going to call lotus tomorrow but can't imagine jane/jim/bob in customer service will know and if they did would they give the info out, I doubt it.
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