What cars should Honda make?
Discussion
it seems there are only ever two cars talked about in here .. the S2000 and NSX (R.I.P.) .. a sad reflection of the rather dismal line-up from Honda.
i doubt any Honda suits are going to read this thread - well because they are so far up their marketing ars3s or busy w8nking over the latest sales figures to care, or even know, what their loyal (or used to be) customers actually want to buy - but on the off-chance that someone from Honda actually still enjoy driving cars and wants to share that passion with his fellow Ph'ers, maybe some ideas from us would be of use to him (or her).
anyway, i'll start the ball rolling ...
a compact executive hatchback:
I want an exec hatchback, something like the 1-series, but with a proper boot that you can erm put stuff into. Radical idea eh? The Civic 'boneshaker' hatchback looks like something from a budget-remake of Back To The Future, and before you mention Accord Estate (which has the right blend of performance, ride quality, loading capacity etc.) - it's too damn big for most day-to-day driving. So a shorter-wheelbase version of the Accord with a nice square backside is what i'm after; in fact just like the original Accord but without the flimsy glass hatch.
something to take on the Boxster:
rather than faffing around with the 2.0 engine (F20C) in the S2000 to get a few extra ponies, and combined with the fact that it's about as good in the 'emissions' criteria as a smoker in a pub, how about designing a new 6-cylinder inline (lesson: I-5s are inherently unbalanced, hence balancer-shafts required) with the i-VTEC gubbins from the existing powerplants. ok, the chassis will need to be enlarged a bit (ala MX-5) and the weight distribution (fore and aft) will need some honing - perhaps BMW can provide some lessons?
i doubt any Honda suits are going to read this thread - well because they are so far up their marketing ars3s or busy w8nking over the latest sales figures to care, or even know, what their loyal (or used to be) customers actually want to buy - but on the off-chance that someone from Honda actually still enjoy driving cars and wants to share that passion with his fellow Ph'ers, maybe some ideas from us would be of use to him (or her).
anyway, i'll start the ball rolling ...
a compact executive hatchback:
I want an exec hatchback, something like the 1-series, but with a proper boot that you can erm put stuff into. Radical idea eh? The Civic 'boneshaker' hatchback looks like something from a budget-remake of Back To The Future, and before you mention Accord Estate (which has the right blend of performance, ride quality, loading capacity etc.) - it's too damn big for most day-to-day driving. So a shorter-wheelbase version of the Accord with a nice square backside is what i'm after; in fact just like the original Accord but without the flimsy glass hatch.
something to take on the Boxster:
rather than faffing around with the 2.0 engine (F20C) in the S2000 to get a few extra ponies, and combined with the fact that it's about as good in the 'emissions' criteria as a smoker in a pub, how about designing a new 6-cylinder inline (lesson: I-5s are inherently unbalanced, hence balancer-shafts required) with the i-VTEC gubbins from the existing powerplants. ok, the chassis will need to be enlarged a bit (ala MX-5) and the weight distribution (fore and aft) will need some honing - perhaps BMW can provide some lessons?
pedants - feel free to correct my nasty grammar
Edited by fido on Wednesday 25th July 19:52
An I6 would fit in the current S2000 chassis.
Working on the current 125hp per litre of the JDM F20C, a 3.0 lump should put out enough to be good.
The yanks have put the Supra 2JZ in without too many issues.
But they wont. A Honda badge isn't going to compete.
Then they should bring out the NSX replacement, but they are waiting for Acura to me released in Japan .. so that's 2010.
Working on the current 125hp per litre of the JDM F20C, a 3.0 lump should put out enough to be good.
The yanks have put the Supra 2JZ in without too many issues.
But they wont. A Honda badge isn't going to compete.
Then they should bring out the NSX replacement, but they are waiting for Acura to me released in Japan .. so that's 2010.
I think Honda are doing just fine, but they need to make the NSX - either continue with the old one or make a new one. It's so terribly sad that such an amazing car existed, but is no longer produced. I feel the same way about the NSX as I do Concorde to be quite honest!
I get very disheartened to read about the NSX's replacement. In short, we want a two seater mid engined sports car that handles like a dream, sounds incredible, is built better than any Porsche, Ferrari etc and has an adequate boot. We don't want four seats, excess weight, lurid styling etc etc.
I think they should also improve the S2000. It's a great car, but I'm sure that Honda could make it better in terms of its feedback through chassis and steering and it's handling.
Honda's sports car divisions are going to have to get over this badge/image thing. Yes, 80% of people that buy sports cars do so to show off, but that doesn't mean that one of the best car companies in the world should not make sports cars for the remaining 20%, as they have such an obvious talent for it. Yes, it means they won't sell in numbers to rival other manufacturers, but I don't think it should put Honda off making the cars, if not just as flagships to inject prestige into the brand and lead their engineering forwards.
I get very disheartened to read about the NSX's replacement. In short, we want a two seater mid engined sports car that handles like a dream, sounds incredible, is built better than any Porsche, Ferrari etc and has an adequate boot. We don't want four seats, excess weight, lurid styling etc etc.
I think they should also improve the S2000. It's a great car, but I'm sure that Honda could make it better in terms of its feedback through chassis and steering and it's handling.
Honda's sports car divisions are going to have to get over this badge/image thing. Yes, 80% of people that buy sports cars do so to show off, but that doesn't mean that one of the best car companies in the world should not make sports cars for the remaining 20%, as they have such an obvious talent for it. Yes, it means they won't sell in numbers to rival other manufacturers, but I don't think it should put Honda off making the cars, if not just as flagships to inject prestige into the brand and lead their engineering forwards.
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 30th July 16:17
RobM77 said:
Honda's sports car divisions are going to have to get over this badge/image thing. Yes, 80% of people that buy sports cars do so to show off, but that doesn't mean that one of the best car companies in the world should not make sports cars for the remaining 20%, as they have such an obvious talent for it. Yes, it means they won't sell in numbers to rival other manufacturers, but I don't think it should put Honda off making the cars, if not just as flagships to inject prestige into the brand and lead their engineering forwards.
Look at Toyota .. were fine when they had the GT4, MR2 Turbo, Supra on a non-premium badge.Edited by RobM77 on Monday 30th July 16:17
I think there is a definate gap in the market for a few more mid range Japanese sports cars.
The Celica/MR2/Supra is dead, we didn't get the S15/FTO over here, the 350/MX5 seem to sell well.
Bibbs said:
RobM77 said:
Honda's sports car divisions are going to have to get over this badge/image thing. Yes, 80% of people that buy sports cars do so to show off, but that doesn't mean that one of the best car companies in the world should not make sports cars for the remaining 20%, as they have such an obvious talent for it. Yes, it means they won't sell in numbers to rival other manufacturers, but I don't think it should put Honda off making the cars, if not just as flagships to inject prestige into the brand and lead their engineering forwards.
Look at Toyota .. were fine when they had the GT4, MR2 Turbo, Supra on a non-premium badge.Edited by RobM77 on Monday 30th July 16:17
I think there is a definate gap in the market for a few more mid range Japanese sports cars.
The Celica/MR2/Supra is dead, we didn't get the S15/FTO over here, the 350/MX5 seem to sell well.
Nissan 350Z
Mazda RX8
Mazda MX5
Honda S2000
Toyota MR2
(I'm not including the Toyota Celica because it's FWD with no plans for a GT4 version).
Out of that lot, there's three open top sports cars and two coupes. There's defintely room for more. How about a Honda coupe to rival the 350Z? How about a mid engined MR2 based coupe from Toyota?
What I'd really like to see though is another NSX. I know I'm going to bore people by keeping on about it, but it has to happen! Up until a few years ago Porsche and Ferrari were at it on there own for sub £150k mid engined sports cars, and always had been. The fact that Honda gave it a go with the NSX and actually produced such an amazing car is something incredible, but why does it have to be history? With the Porsche being based on an outdated rear engined design and the Ferrari commanding well over £100k now, the market isn't exactly flooded with choice. Audi have now joined up, so isn't it time for Honda to enter the scene again?
I think half the problem was Honda's marketing. Their brochures for the NSX seem to be marketing it as a sleek executive express, rather than a pure-bred sports car. They need to change their marketing totally (they could lever themselves off F1 for a start!), and ditch the automatic gearbox option.
Yup, if you want a quick Jap car, it's either
Old (Supra, Skyline, GTO)
Import only (MR2 Turbo, FTO, S15)
WRX wannabes (Evo, Scooby)
Or something that isn't *that* quick that you need to mod (S2k, 350Z, MX5)
Can't wait for the new GTR, the LFA and the NSX-replacement to get here. But I've a feeling they will all be circa £100k (and probably about $90k).
Where are the affordable sports cars?
Old (Supra, Skyline, GTO)
Import only (MR2 Turbo, FTO, S15)
WRX wannabes (Evo, Scooby)
Or something that isn't *that* quick that you need to mod (S2k, 350Z, MX5)
Can't wait for the new GTR, the LFA and the NSX-replacement to get here. But I've a feeling they will all be circa £100k (and probably about $90k).
Where are the affordable sports cars?
Maybe part of the problem is that no-one is taking on European manufacturers head on. The Boxster S is the perfect comfort/sports car; with the 350Z being a coupe and too heavy and with leaden controls, and the S2000 having no steering feel and not being gutsy enough. The Elise is the perfect pure and raw sports car, and no-one seems to bother trying to attack it, and I suppose the Porsche Cayman appears to be the perfect coupe. As for sub £100k super/sports cars, we have the 911 and that new Audi thing. This sort of competition is good, but it's not unbeatable.
The last time that Japan took on this sort of established European might head-on we got the NSX, which is one of the finest cars ever made. Gordon Murray used it as a benchmark for the Mclaren F1, and I think he still owns his one!
Japan is capable of this sort of measured attack again. I'm certain they could better the Boxster for instance, if they created a similar car with less weight, more power (no 911 for the marketing people to worry about!), more obvious driver involvement and cheaper running costs. Similarly, the Cayman could also be attacked in the same manner. As for the sub £100k sports car, this is substantially easier territory, with the dynamically flawed 911 and the 4WD Audi number but quick thing as the only competition. I'm certain that Honda could build a new NSX with 400bhp for £55k which would destroy the opposition in this sector.
The last time that Japan took on this sort of established European might head-on we got the NSX, which is one of the finest cars ever made. Gordon Murray used it as a benchmark for the Mclaren F1, and I think he still owns his one!
Japan is capable of this sort of measured attack again. I'm certain they could better the Boxster for instance, if they created a similar car with less weight, more power (no 911 for the marketing people to worry about!), more obvious driver involvement and cheaper running costs. Similarly, the Cayman could also be attacked in the same manner. As for the sub £100k sports car, this is substantially easier territory, with the dynamically flawed 911 and the 4WD Audi number but quick thing as the only competition. I'm certain that Honda could build a new NSX with 400bhp for £55k which would destroy the opposition in this sector.
I commented about this on another thread recently...Honda made their rep from outstanding engineering integrity and build quality. Sadly, both seem to be in decline a little...and I'm of the opinion that the S2000 was probably their engineering swansong.
That said, their business model now is a lot more profitable, at least partially because of their design and because of the new diesel engines. That said, I'm worried they've thrown the baby out with the bathwater as the engineering rep is starting to suffer...which could put them back in with all the other mainstream Jap mfrs.
What SHOULD they make?
A hot Accord. V6 n/a, 4wd if possible, good lsd if not...a junior exec 'halo' car, available in two versions - luxury exec Type-S and stripped out Type-R.
A Prelude / Integra replacement. Either as a 2-seater rwd coupe off the S2000 platform, or a 2+2 fwd off the JDM Civic platform. Could probably get away with both...
A proper small car - Jazz is good but there's room for a smaller car. Not sure on the margins in that segment though...
A proper S2000 replacement. I-6 or V6 of between 2 and 3 litre capacity putting out close-on 300bhp (possibly two engines...F20C and new one) through the rear wheels. Soft top and maybe a hard-top or CC version (see above).
A new NSX. 911-class with 350-400bhp, but priced to compete with the GT-R and the imminent Supra (like we don't think 'yota have it in the pipeline!).
That said, their business model now is a lot more profitable, at least partially because of their design and because of the new diesel engines. That said, I'm worried they've thrown the baby out with the bathwater as the engineering rep is starting to suffer...which could put them back in with all the other mainstream Jap mfrs.
What SHOULD they make?
A hot Accord. V6 n/a, 4wd if possible, good lsd if not...a junior exec 'halo' car, available in two versions - luxury exec Type-S and stripped out Type-R.
A Prelude / Integra replacement. Either as a 2-seater rwd coupe off the S2000 platform, or a 2+2 fwd off the JDM Civic platform. Could probably get away with both...
A proper small car - Jazz is good but there's room for a smaller car. Not sure on the margins in that segment though...
A proper S2000 replacement. I-6 or V6 of between 2 and 3 litre capacity putting out close-on 300bhp (possibly two engines...F20C and new one) through the rear wheels. Soft top and maybe a hard-top or CC version (see above).
A new NSX. 911-class with 350-400bhp, but priced to compete with the GT-R and the imminent Supra (like we don't think 'yota have it in the pipeline!).
Cathar said:
What should Honda make?
A S2000 "CSL" with 150kg less and an engine on individual throttle bodis that revs to 10.5k, of course.
As said before .. emissions, costs (and warranties) involved in producing such an engine .. plus everyone else is going the 'turbo' route. Whereas a straight-six would in theory be capable of 360bhp, larger but without the need for balancer shafts.A S2000 "CSL" with 150kg less and an engine on individual throttle bodis that revs to 10.5k, of course.
Edited by fido on Wednesday 8th August 13:14
fido said:
Cathar said:
What should Honda make?
A S2000 "CSL" with 150kg less and an engine on individual throttle bodis that revs to 10.5k, of course.
As said before .. emissions, costs (and warranties) involved in producing such an engine .. plus everyone else is going the 'turbo' route. Whereas a straight-six would in theory be capable of 360bhp, larger but without the need for balancer shafts.A S2000 "CSL" with 150kg less and an engine on individual throttle bodis that revs to 10.5k, of course.
Edited by fido on Wednesday 8th August 13:14
havoc said:
A hot Accord. V6 n/a, 4wd if possible, good lsd if not...a junior exec 'halo' car, available in two versions - luxury exec Type-S and stripped out Type-R.
Good idea. Shame it couldn't be RWD, but that would probably be too costly to develop. Mind you, the RWD platform could be used for what you suggest next..havoc said:
A Prelude / Integra replacement. Either as a 2-seater rwd coupe off the S2000 platform, or a 2+2 fwd off the JDM Civic platform. Could probably get away with both...
That's true, Honda currently don't have a Celica rival. In this sector, as with the saloon, I don't think not being a big name Euro brand (sorry, German brand) really matters that much, so it'd be safe to go head to head with the 3 series and the 3 series coupe.havoc said:
A proper small car - Jazz is good but there's room for a smaller car. Not sure on the margins in that segment though...
Fiat 500 competitor.. great idea but I think you're right about the margins.havoc said:
A proper S2000 replacement. I-6 or V6 of between 2 and 3 litre capacity putting out close-on 300bhp (possibly two engines...F20C and new one) through the rear wheels. Soft top and maybe a hard-top or CC version (see above).
That'd put it head to head with the Boxster in price.. in this sector image is everything sadly 
havoc said:
A new NSX. 911-class with 350-400bhp, but priced to compete with the GT-R and the imminent Supra (like we don't think 'yota have it in the pipeline!).
I fear image would be the issue, as with the NSX, but Honda have to build such a car just to prove that they can!!Gassing Station | Honda | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff