Light weight Chevy small block
Discussion
I would like to start a constructive discussion on the weight of the Chevy small block engine. It seems that everybody talks about power,this should be one of the places where one should be able to save some Kg. of the Ultima, and we all know; the less weight we have to move, the less Power do we need.
The Caterham boys have done a lot in this department, with their R500, and have achieved some very fine results.
If I look at the engines American Speed builds for the Ultima, there is an option of an Aluminium Block ($ 4,195.-). Likewise can you get different parts in Carbon fibre (rocker covers etc.)
What does the different Small Blocks weigh in you cars, (stig you must know from the transport)?
How many Kg. can be saved of the engine by using the Aluminium block and other parts.
The Caterham boys have done a lot in this department, with their R500, and have achieved some very fine results.
If I look at the engines American Speed builds for the Ultima, there is an option of an Aluminium Block ($ 4,195.-). Likewise can you get different parts in Carbon fibre (rocker covers etc.)
What does the different Small Blocks weigh in you cars, (stig you must know from the transport)?
How many Kg. can be saved of the engine by using the Aluminium block and other parts.
Mine AS small block weighed 215kgs (complete less headers) from my shipping slips.
I beleive the alloy block saves 40kgs (90lbs), getting carbon bits for the engine will save about as much as a pi**.
Other area's for serious weight loss are single petrol tank and smaller (thus lighter) wheels & tyres, but you will lose more than you will gain and IMHO its definatelly not worth it.
In the end its cheaper to go up in horsepower than to go down in weight, after all the car can handle it and some.
For information though my perfect Ultima would:
Have 550Bhp.
Rev to 8000rpm.
5 speed sequential gearbox 65mph 1st, 105mph 2nd, and 250mph top.
Weigh under 800kgs wet.
Red.
I recon I could acheive it too, but it would cost just for parts way more than I could ever afford.
I beleive the alloy block saves 40kgs (90lbs), getting carbon bits for the engine will save about as much as a pi**.
Other area's for serious weight loss are single petrol tank and smaller (thus lighter) wheels & tyres, but you will lose more than you will gain and IMHO its definatelly not worth it.
In the end its cheaper to go up in horsepower than to go down in weight, after all the car can handle it and some.
For information though my perfect Ultima would:
Have 550Bhp.
Rev to 8000rpm.
5 speed sequential gearbox 65mph 1st, 105mph 2nd, and 250mph top.
Weigh under 800kgs wet.
Red.
I recon I could acheive it too, but it would cost just for parts way more than I could ever afford.
I have to agree with Andy on this one. What the Caterham team did with the R500 is remarkable, but, consider where their starting point was compared with an Ultima.
1.8 litres and a go-cart with mud flaps. Every 10 bhp they could ring out from the engine would be noticable, also, every 10 kilos they could loose of the car would also have a measurable effect.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no knocker of that type of car but, the weight saving from having an alloy rather than steel block would male very little difference. The extra cost would buy far more bhp and this would help the power-to-weight more effectivly.
Now, given an unlimited budget, of course the alloy block would be first on the shopping list and then have an engine built up from there. If the engine was orininal fit in a new car you would also need things like cats etc for sva. An engine block of the correct age negates all that hassle and still give 'adequate' performance.
Paul
1.8 litres and a go-cart with mud flaps. Every 10 bhp they could ring out from the engine would be noticable, also, every 10 kilos they could loose of the car would also have a measurable effect.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no knocker of that type of car but, the weight saving from having an alloy rather than steel block would male very little difference. The extra cost would buy far more bhp and this would help the power-to-weight more effectivly.
Now, given an unlimited budget, of course the alloy block would be first on the shopping list and then have an engine built up from there. If the engine was orininal fit in a new car you would also need things like cats etc for sva. An engine block of the correct age negates all that hassle and still give 'adequate' performance.
Paul
If anyone options the aluminum block make sure that you don't get one made by Dart. The luxury of having a standard oil pan is not afforded by this block and there is no block mount for the oil filter.
This is especially relevant if you have a Porsche transaxle and center shift car.
ken
This is especially relevant if you have a Porsche transaxle and center shift car.
ken
Yep,
I found out though that the only place in the chassis of a large enough size for the dry sump tank is occupied by....the gear shift linkage (I have a center shift G50/52).
I didn't want to go with a dry sump anyway. Plenty of road cars with an alloy block and wet sump.
The only reason that I can think of to use a Dart block is if you need the space for a large displacement motor, like over 400 inches.
Simon, whats going on with the car. Looking at your site frequently just to stare at it, stunning car.
ken
I found out though that the only place in the chassis of a large enough size for the dry sump tank is occupied by....the gear shift linkage (I have a center shift G50/52).
I didn't want to go with a dry sump anyway. Plenty of road cars with an alloy block and wet sump.
The only reason that I can think of to use a Dart block is if you need the space for a large displacement motor, like over 400 inches.
Simon, whats going on with the car. Looking at your site frequently just to stare at it, stunning car.
ken
Thanks Ken. After a long wait I finally collected my new engine on Monday this week. Yahoo! As you were the first to ask here goes:-
Chevrolet 4-bolt main 350 block, bored, honed and decked.
.040 bored, 3.75" crank, displacement 385cu.in.
JE/SRP forged pistons with moly rings.
Eagle 'H' beam steel rods.
Scat 3.75" forged steel billet crank.
Competition cams solid roller cam.
Competition cams street roller lifters.
Harland Sharp 1.6:1 roller rockers.
Dart Pro-1 alluminium heads with work.
Edelbrock victor junior intake.
Holley 750.
MSD Billet Dizzy.
MSD Ignition - standard.
Milodon oil pan.
Stock Car Products dry sump pump.
Dyno sheet from PETER KNIGHT RACING SERVICES...
RPM TORQUE BHP
4000 441 336
4100 445 347
4200 457 366
4300 463 379
4400 470 394
4500 475 407
4600 473 414
4700 474 423
4800 475 434
4900 479 447
5000 477 455
5100 489 468
5200 477 472
5300 474 478
5400 475 488
5500 470 493
5600 465 496
5700 459 498
5800 453 501
5900 449 505
6000 444 507
6100 438 509
6200 430 507
6300 420 504
6400 412 502
6500 404 500
6600 399 502
6700 387 493
6800 381 493
I specifically asked for the addition of N20, and I anticipate another 125 shot of funny stuff as as when required
thereby not having an extremely 'racy' engine, but having the extra available when required. Anyway, 510 English hp without the different 14% barometric adjustment is plenty enough for high street use 
I am having some problems, however, with the dry sump arrangement. Does anyone else have a dry sump system installed, and if so could you shed any light on tank size, pipe bore size (#12!) placement etc. Also fuelling as I need to change the #6 for #8's to properly fuel this. I also wish to use both tanks with a #8 balance pipe, get rid of the Facet red top pump on the left side and replace it with a higher capacity one (don't know what yet), and use the other one to supply the nitrous system. Anyone done this before?
Sorry guys not done yet!!
Now I have a dry sump pump in place of my alternator and an air-con unit the other side...where do I mount the alternator and with what??
Clive mentioned a serpentine belt - which sounds good to me, but as to placement of all the parts; God knows!
Edited! Sorry GD1 for crashing your thread. I too looked at the ally option, and would have gone for it. I changed my mind after the unsurmountable evidence against the weight saving over any possible power output - basically I was talked out of it, and for £X pounds why bother. Let's not forget the Ultima only weighs on average 950'ish kg's, dependent on spec. IMHO forget the shiny stuff and go for the iron jobby. I would be very suprised if you noticed any difference in the finished items. Of course if you are seriously looking at weight conservation, then why not look at a different all ally mill; there are many options etc.
>> Edited by ultimasimon on Saturday 7th June 01:11
Chevrolet 4-bolt main 350 block, bored, honed and decked.
.040 bored, 3.75" crank, displacement 385cu.in.
JE/SRP forged pistons with moly rings.
Eagle 'H' beam steel rods.
Scat 3.75" forged steel billet crank.
Competition cams solid roller cam.
Competition cams street roller lifters.
Harland Sharp 1.6:1 roller rockers.
Dart Pro-1 alluminium heads with work.
Edelbrock victor junior intake.
Holley 750.
MSD Billet Dizzy.
MSD Ignition - standard.
Milodon oil pan.
Stock Car Products dry sump pump.
Dyno sheet from PETER KNIGHT RACING SERVICES...
RPM TORQUE BHP
4000 441 336
4100 445 347
4200 457 366
4300 463 379
4400 470 394
4500 475 407
4600 473 414
4700 474 423
4800 475 434
4900 479 447
5000 477 455
5100 489 468
5200 477 472
5300 474 478
5400 475 488
5500 470 493
5600 465 496
5700 459 498
5800 453 501
5900 449 505
6000 444 507
6100 438 509
6200 430 507
6300 420 504
6400 412 502
6500 404 500
6600 399 502
6700 387 493
6800 381 493
I specifically asked for the addition of N20, and I anticipate another 125 shot of funny stuff as as when required
thereby not having an extremely 'racy' engine, but having the extra available when required. Anyway, 510 English hp without the different 14% barometric adjustment is plenty enough for high street use I am having some problems, however, with the dry sump arrangement. Does anyone else have a dry sump system installed, and if so could you shed any light on tank size, pipe bore size (#12!) placement etc. Also fuelling as I need to change the #6 for #8's to properly fuel this. I also wish to use both tanks with a #8 balance pipe, get rid of the Facet red top pump on the left side and replace it with a higher capacity one (don't know what yet), and use the other one to supply the nitrous system. Anyone done this before?
Sorry guys not done yet!!
Now I have a dry sump pump in place of my alternator and an air-con unit the other side...where do I mount the alternator and with what??
Clive mentioned a serpentine belt - which sounds good to me, but as to placement of all the parts; God knows!
Edited! Sorry GD1 for crashing your thread. I too looked at the ally option, and would have gone for it. I changed my mind after the unsurmountable evidence against the weight saving over any possible power output - basically I was talked out of it, and for £X pounds why bother. Let's not forget the Ultima only weighs on average 950'ish kg's, dependent on spec. IMHO forget the shiny stuff and go for the iron jobby. I would be very suprised if you noticed any difference in the finished items. Of course if you are seriously looking at weight conservation, then why not look at a different all ally mill; there are many options etc.
>> Edited by ultimasimon on Saturday 7th June 01:11
Cool motor.
The most recent factory CD has the dry sump tank located to the left to the transaxle, the location of the Accusump in wet sump cars. With a Chevy block you have loads of options for the pan, the one that has the most clearance is made by Milodon and has two -12 pickups on the left side of the pan (there is one hanging on my wall right now, let me know if you want it).
The dry sump pump can be bought with a mount that does not require a spacer plate to move is up away from the oil pan rail. Weaver brothers sells a pump that has mounts that place it up and away from the motor. The mount is called saturday night special. They sell pumps with mounts in multiple positions. Call them and get a catalog, it has full size templates of the mounting plates that they sell.
Now that you have the new motor we'll look for more pictures.
ken
The most recent factory CD has the dry sump tank located to the left to the transaxle, the location of the Accusump in wet sump cars. With a Chevy block you have loads of options for the pan, the one that has the most clearance is made by Milodon and has two -12 pickups on the left side of the pan (there is one hanging on my wall right now, let me know if you want it).
The dry sump pump can be bought with a mount that does not require a spacer plate to move is up away from the oil pan rail. Weaver brothers sells a pump that has mounts that place it up and away from the motor. The mount is called saturday night special. They sell pumps with mounts in multiple positions. Call them and get a catalog, it has full size templates of the mounting plates that they sell.
Now that you have the new motor we'll look for more pictures.
ken
ultimaandy said: Simon
Stop stalling and get that car on the road, after all now that I've blown clive into the weeds I need a new challenge............no laughing/cheating though.
will you be ready for pistonfest?
Ahem - I would if Clive would hurry up and get the flywheel, adapter plate and starter back to me
CLIVE !!...bless him though cos I thinks he's found a buyer for his pride and joy - that must be a tough one. As it goes, i have plenty of work left to do, as most of the fuel system needs to be upgraded, and I also have a dry sump tank and various piping to fit along with the N20 system which needs to be installed
Then add a Tracker, a CAT1 alarm and a paging system and were getting there... Will defo make it to PF though, if it's the last thing I do!
Edited to add:- Cheers Ken, I already have the Milodon pan with the two -12 pickups. All my oil pipes will be #12 from now on, and I am just waiting on a #12 oil cooler.I am going to run with #8 for all the fuel lines except the n20 fuel feed which wil be a spurred off #6 from one of the the existing tanks. Then I am going to try to ballance both #6 from right to left, and 'T' piece off in a home made #8 to feed the filter, pressure reg and bucket - sorry carb. I have a shed load to do and only a small space of time left
I am particularly interested in the Sat night special though, as its going to get a bit busy with all these belts and pulleys. Will look into that.
As for the web, I have started to revamp it slowly, but my mate has my digi-cam and is in France till after Le Mans, so I won't be able to show any new shots till then but the 'new-look' has started - Clive will like it.
>> Edited by ultimasimon on Saturday 7th June 19:52
Bring it on Hairdresser boy....
Check out Keith Craft Motors www.keithcraft.com
I'm having them build my aluminum SBC. The block is a Brodix and custom machined to lower weight by 135#.
Motor will be NA and put out about 700HP. Going to see it dyno'd first week in July. This motor is going in one of my Cobras, but will be duplicate to what I order for my Can Am. Aluminum block adder was only $2700.
Keith
I'm having them build my aluminum SBC. The block is a Brodix and custom machined to lower weight by 135#.
Motor will be NA and put out about 700HP. Going to see it dyno'd first week in July. This motor is going in one of my Cobras, but will be duplicate to what I order for my Can Am. Aluminum block adder was only $2700.
Keith
keithw said: Check out Keith Craft Motors www.keithcraft.com
I'm having them build my aluminum SBC. The block is a Brodix and custom machined to lower weight by 135#.
Motor will be NA and put out about 700HP. Going to see it dyno'd first week in July. This motor is going in one of my Cobras, but will be duplicate to what I order for my Can Am. Aluminum block adder was only $2700.
Keith
That sound very interesting Keith.
I would like to here more about you motor (engine over here) when you get it. Could you perhaps show us the dyno test etc.
Have you done any other thing to the motor to make it light, or just the block ?
Do you have any pics on the Net where we caould see your Cobra ?
GD1
GD1,
Going to see the Dyno run 1st week of July. I'll try and post the Dyno curves.
Other than the Brodix block, I've got AFR 210 Aluminum
heads(but not for weight loss). The motor will have 13:1 compression and be used almost exclusively to race.
No pics yet as car has been being re-done. I was in Kit Car magazine a couple issues ago at Run and Gun.
Came in 3rd in the drags. Not bad with a B&M shifting from 1st to third.
I'll get some picks when all is done.
Keith
Going to see the Dyno run 1st week of July. I'll try and post the Dyno curves.
Other than the Brodix block, I've got AFR 210 Aluminum
heads(but not for weight loss). The motor will have 13:1 compression and be used almost exclusively to race.
No pics yet as car has been being re-done. I was in Kit Car magazine a couple issues ago at Run and Gun.
Came in 3rd in the drags. Not bad with a B&M shifting from 1st to third.
I'll get some picks when all is done.
Keith
Brits, Aluminum is the way to go. There are many options for blocks and most are about one-half the weight of their cast iron equivalents. You would save about 90 lbs. with the alloy block. As for configuration, look at the 377 cu.in. ( 3.48 stroke and 4.155 bore ). The bore to stroke ratio is over-square, it has a higher RPM potential than a 383 cu. in. ( 3.75 stoke and 4.030 bore). The GTR should not be a torque dependent car and with top speed the end game, you need the RPM and optimum gearing to push beyond the 200 mph barrier.
Just a thought....Weight may not be truly a concern. In fact, with the engine mounted so low in the chassis the center of gravity will be negatively effected by reducing the weight of the engine. Remeber, weight properly placed is not all bad.
Just a thought....Weight may not be truly a concern. In fact, with the engine mounted so low in the chassis the center of gravity will be negatively effected by reducing the weight of the engine. Remeber, weight properly placed is not all bad.
TexasGTR said: Brits, Aluminum is the way to go. There are many options for blocks and most are about one-half the weight of their cast iron equivalents. You would save about 90 lbs. with the alloy block. As for configuration, look at the 377 cu.in. ( 3.48 stroke and 4.155 bore ). The bore to stroke ratio is over-square, it has a higher RPM potential than a 383 cu. in. ( 3.75 stoke and 4.030 bore). The GTR should not be a torque dependent car and with top speed the end game, you need the RPM and optimum gearing to push beyond the 200 mph barrier.
Just a thought....Weight may not be truly a concern. In fact, with the engine mounted so low in the chassis the center of gravity will be negatively effected by reducing the weight of the engine. Remeber, weight properly placed is not all bad.
Hiya Tex. We have ONE big issue with the aluminum route over here. We would need to over complicate the car by needing to fit Cats etc. There is a quirk to our registration proceedure that allows us to run very dirty engines, (cheap), because the age of the block determines what emmissions limit the engine has meet.
I hope this makes sense. Old is dirty, cheap and allowed. New is clean, expensive and also allowed. A no brainer?
Paul
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