how crap is chilton this year
Discussion
Ahonen said:
To be fair to TC I think his performances prior to joining Vx were pretty reasonable and last year he acquitted himself fairly well against FG.
This year I'd suggest FG has learned the circuits and the team and is operating at maximum potential
Yes, I agree with this. Chilton is not a bad driver - his performances 2 years ago are the best indication of that in the black PS2 sponsored Honda, IMHO. He's just not as good as some of the others, specifically his team-mate who, now tha he has a consistent chassis and knows all the circuits, and has also beocme used to FWD, has proven just what a master he is. This year I'd suggest FG has learned the circuits and the team and is operating at maximum potential
I have to admit that I didn't see what all the fuss was with Giovanardi and as with Muller, I enjoyed seeing him get whupped by the "Brits". But I do bow down to his considerable talents!
Ahonen said:
To be fair to TC I think his performances prior to joining Vx were pretty reasonable and last year he acquitted himself fairly well against FG.
This year I'd suggest FG has learned the circuits and the team and is operating at maximum potential
I never thought much of TC as a driver (largely because touring car drivers generally aren't very impressive), but his performances in the Zytek in ALMS last year were actually pretty impressive. He wasn't disgraced at all by Shimoda, who's acknowledged to be pretty damn good.
As far as budget comments go, well that's an interesting one. VXRacing's budget is just a small part of the Vauxhall Marketing budget and if they think they'll get more sales from a series of ads in EVO than by employing a different driver then that's up to them. We, in motor racing, will naturally bemoan such things, but marketing is so tightly controlled these days that you've got to have one hell of a case to justify an extra £250k of budget. It's worth pointing out, too, that the Vauxhall purse strings are very heavily influenced by Opel, who had to can their own DTM entry a couple of years ago while Opel underwent job cuts and massive belt-tightening.
I think you're pretty much spot on with this. This year I'd suggest FG has learned the circuits and the team and is operating at maximum potential
I never thought much of TC as a driver (largely because touring car drivers generally aren't very impressive), but his performances in the Zytek in ALMS last year were actually pretty impressive. He wasn't disgraced at all by Shimoda, who's acknowledged to be pretty damn good.
As far as budget comments go, well that's an interesting one. VXRacing's budget is just a small part of the Vauxhall Marketing budget and if they think they'll get more sales from a series of ads in EVO than by employing a different driver then that's up to them. We, in motor racing, will naturally bemoan such things, but marketing is so tightly controlled these days that you've got to have one hell of a case to justify an extra £250k of budget. It's worth pointing out, too, that the Vauxhall purse strings are very heavily influenced by Opel, who had to can their own DTM entry a couple of years ago while Opel underwent job cuts and massive belt-tightening.
Edited by Ahonen on Tuesday 4th September 23:50
I don't think we did see the best of FG last year but still it is disapointing that Vauxhall would rather take cash than do the job properly. Especially when you factor in the crash damage and the negative publicity things such as this thread generate!
TC in LMES - he very rarely qualified the car and I think you are judging a Chilton driving at 110% whilst Shimoda was at 90% in the race. If their Zytec didn't finish it was TC at the wheel (remember Laguna Seca 2 years ago?!).
Out of his depth generally and I think his career and his confidence would be much more if he went away and raced within a constraint of a budget!
rubystone said:
I have to admit that I didn't see what all the fuss was with Giovanardi and as with Muller, I enjoyed seeing him get whupped by the "Brits". But I do bow down to his considerable talents!
Agree - I don't understand why 888/Vauxhall are obsessed with taking foreign drivers. I mean there are plenty of Brits who would do a job equal to FG and even if you didn't accept this point if 888/Vauxhall hadn't employed FG its sure no body in BTCC would have - given there is only Vauxhall and SEAT paying drivers anyway!rubystone said:
Dunk76 said:
Who could forget Mike Smith during the M3/RS500 era?
Crashing all by himself on a straight at Birmingham road circuit was particularly memorable.
But to be fair to him, his driving did improve hugely and by the time he set up Traksport (IIRC) with Gravett, he was doing very well. Those RS500s were not easy cars to drive!Crashing all by himself on a straight at Birmingham road circuit was particularly memorable.
I think I can recall at least two occasions where there was a coming together of Sytner and Smith, followed by Sytner predictably exploding...
Dunk76 said:
I thought that was more to do with Frank Sytner punching him the face every weekend wasn't it?
I think I can recall at least two occasions where there was a coming together of Sytner and Smith, followed by Sytner predictably exploding...
Ah Frank - whatta guy. Nicest bloke in motorsportI think I can recall at least two occasions where there was a coming together of Sytner and Smith, followed by Sytner predictably exploding...
Dunk76 said:
Indeed - almost as nice as the good Doctor 
If the "good Doctor" is the man I think you're talking about, I think that a lot of this is down to his obessional attention to detail and seemingly inability to delegate...and when he does, to leave those individuals alone to do their job.Of course, if you're talking about Josef Goebbels, scratch the above
Ok , lets see if I can answer the number of issues on here:
Yes, he's been shown up by Giovanardi. But I'd put money on all of the car development being done by, and for the benefit of, Giovanardi.
Nope , with the new car both drivers started from scratch to develop their own set up, and both had the same ‘toolbox’. We encouraged both Tom and Fabrizio to try each others set ups but they’ve ended up with slight differences.
Won't happen. He brings too much £££ to the team. The irony being that Chilton's (or rather, his Dad's) money probably pays Giovanardi's wages!
No he doesn’t . We pay him , he used to pay/drive , not anymore.
Vauxhall have got what they deserve in that they will not win the manufacturer title this year because they decided to take Chilton's money and not take a driver on his ability - come on with so many people out of work it should have been easy. Rickard Rydell is one kicking his heels in 07!
Thanks thats nice to know.However we did not take his money. Tom was taken on as an up and coming young british driver , he has btw won 7 BTC races , we all agreed the Astra Sporthatch was built up around Yvan and proved very difficult to set up , so the introduction of the Vectra meant a clean slate.
Its funny because follow another thread Stuart Harris (who a big cheese at Vauxhall) goes very quiet when pressed about Chilton.
Hi. I know its hard to believe but we don’t spend all day looking for threads on the net.
So come on Stuart how did 888/yourself and Mike Nicolson come to the conclusion that TC was the "best available driver" for 2007??
As above , the Astra SportHatch was a difficult one and we wiped that year out. For Tom it was a chance to start with a fresh car and to build the direction of the set up around his requirements.
This is the same GM that's in financial dire straights because it's spent all of its pension funds and now has no surplus cash...
Er…not true
drivers that could be v.good are... Adam(i raced against him in clios)
Fildes(raced against him also. having a shit year.. all the same he is quick..hodgets who is making all the clio drivers look adverage this year in fairness..byford also is quick.. would like to see them out in btcc...!!
Is that the same hodgets that spun out on the warm up lap at Brands Hatch last time out and then had the race cancelled…seriously we do keep an eye on all the potential drivers and given that it’s a paid factory drive we don’t look for the deepest pocket.
When Opel did DTM the Germans would rather poke themselves in the eye with sharp objects than take average drivers for their factory effort.
How well did Opel do in DTM ?
Faced with such an onslaught of talent, I'd wager TC has just lost belief and is getting increasingly angry with himself.
Very true, I’m sure he can speak for himself if he ever gets on here but as Fabrizio moved the game on he started to overdrive the car , add in some mechanical issues ( just as Darren Turner has had at Seat) and he’s not happy.
I don't think we did see the best of FG last year but still it is disapointing that Vauxhall would rather take cash than do the job properly.
Still on this. No we didn’t.
Agree - I don't understand why 888/Vauxhall are obsessed with taking foreign drivers. I mean there are plenty of Brits who would do a job equal to FG and even if you didn't accept this point if 888/Vauxhall hadn't employed FG its sure no body in BTCC would have - given there is only Vauxhall and SEAT paying drivers anyway!
We’re not, and will always have a Brit in the team. In Tom we saw a young ambitious Brit who had the benefit of good racing experience and good PR. We also had a brand new car to develop , again , and no experienced drivers with Yvan and Thommo off to WTC. The obvious culprits were taken already , we had a new guy so we needed experience.
However I bow to the superior knowledge of the internet and would like you to list them out for us all. Saves us the trouble in the future.
Stu
Yes, he's been shown up by Giovanardi. But I'd put money on all of the car development being done by, and for the benefit of, Giovanardi.
Nope , with the new car both drivers started from scratch to develop their own set up, and both had the same ‘toolbox’. We encouraged both Tom and Fabrizio to try each others set ups but they’ve ended up with slight differences.
Won't happen. He brings too much £££ to the team. The irony being that Chilton's (or rather, his Dad's) money probably pays Giovanardi's wages!
No he doesn’t . We pay him , he used to pay/drive , not anymore.
Vauxhall have got what they deserve in that they will not win the manufacturer title this year because they decided to take Chilton's money and not take a driver on his ability - come on with so many people out of work it should have been easy. Rickard Rydell is one kicking his heels in 07!
Thanks thats nice to know.However we did not take his money. Tom was taken on as an up and coming young british driver , he has btw won 7 BTC races , we all agreed the Astra Sporthatch was built up around Yvan and proved very difficult to set up , so the introduction of the Vectra meant a clean slate.
Its funny because follow another thread Stuart Harris (who a big cheese at Vauxhall) goes very quiet when pressed about Chilton.
Hi. I know its hard to believe but we don’t spend all day looking for threads on the net.
So come on Stuart how did 888/yourself and Mike Nicolson come to the conclusion that TC was the "best available driver" for 2007??
As above , the Astra SportHatch was a difficult one and we wiped that year out. For Tom it was a chance to start with a fresh car and to build the direction of the set up around his requirements.
This is the same GM that's in financial dire straights because it's spent all of its pension funds and now has no surplus cash...
Er…not true
drivers that could be v.good are... Adam(i raced against him in clios)
Fildes(raced against him also. having a shit year.. all the same he is quick..hodgets who is making all the clio drivers look adverage this year in fairness..byford also is quick.. would like to see them out in btcc...!!
Is that the same hodgets that spun out on the warm up lap at Brands Hatch last time out and then had the race cancelled…seriously we do keep an eye on all the potential drivers and given that it’s a paid factory drive we don’t look for the deepest pocket.
When Opel did DTM the Germans would rather poke themselves in the eye with sharp objects than take average drivers for their factory effort.
How well did Opel do in DTM ?
Faced with such an onslaught of talent, I'd wager TC has just lost belief and is getting increasingly angry with himself.
Very true, I’m sure he can speak for himself if he ever gets on here but as Fabrizio moved the game on he started to overdrive the car , add in some mechanical issues ( just as Darren Turner has had at Seat) and he’s not happy.
I don't think we did see the best of FG last year but still it is disapointing that Vauxhall would rather take cash than do the job properly.
Still on this. No we didn’t.
Agree - I don't understand why 888/Vauxhall are obsessed with taking foreign drivers. I mean there are plenty of Brits who would do a job equal to FG and even if you didn't accept this point if 888/Vauxhall hadn't employed FG its sure no body in BTCC would have - given there is only Vauxhall and SEAT paying drivers anyway!
We’re not, and will always have a Brit in the team. In Tom we saw a young ambitious Brit who had the benefit of good racing experience and good PR. We also had a brand new car to develop , again , and no experienced drivers with Yvan and Thommo off to WTC. The obvious culprits were taken already , we had a new guy so we needed experience.
However I bow to the superior knowledge of the internet and would like you to list them out for us all. Saves us the trouble in the future.
Stu
Stuart - fair pay for the comments but come on you can't say that Tom Chilton was the best available driver...
What is even more puzzling is the fact you are so quick to defend TC (and to some extent FG) and explain that the Astra in previous seasons was hard work, etc, etc - so where was that spirt when it came to Colin Turkington, who you sacked after one year?
We both know at some point Chiltons gold made the bed and in 2007 you're being made to lie in it.
What is even more puzzling is the fact you are so quick to defend TC (and to some extent FG) and explain that the Astra in previous seasons was hard work, etc, etc - so where was that spirt when it came to Colin Turkington, who you sacked after one year?
We both know at some point Chiltons gold made the bed and in 2007 you're being made to lie in it.
stu harris said:
How well did Opel do in DTM ?
In Tom we saw a young ambitious Brit who had the benefit of good racing experience and good PR. We also had a brand new car to develop , again , and no experienced drivers with Yvan and Thommo off to WTC. The obvious culprits were taken already , we had a new guy so we needed experience.
Stu
Re: DTM - I think we can all agree the issue was with the car not the drivers.In Tom we saw a young ambitious Brit who had the benefit of good racing experience and good PR. We also had a brand new car to develop , again , and no experienced drivers with Yvan and Thommo off to WTC. The obvious culprits were taken already , we had a new guy so we needed experience.
Stu
Obvious culptits already taken - Hang on Thommo was axed from SEAT at the end of 2006 so he was available, Anthony Reid has done nothing all year, so have race winners like Dan Eaves, Phil Bennett, Alan Morrison, Rydell and even old hands like David Leslie, Kelvin Burt...and Tom Chilton was reckoned to be faster than any of the above? Please.
Lets be fair to the Vauxhall man...
You are naming drivers who have passed their peak in touring cars. Yes, those people were fast... ten years ago. Fabrizio Giovanardi has been fast in touring cars for 10 years, no need to have two veterans on the team.
And I don't think the Vauxhall man ever said Tom Chilton was chosen because he was the fastest available driver.
He was chosen because he was young, a race winner with the potential to improve further, and good for marketing. The cruisers who dream of Corsa VXR's probably dream of being a teenage BTCC driver too.
Obviously this year he has been totally obscured in the shadow of his teammate, if he is not in the team for his financial contribution then obviously he will be sweating on his seat right now.
You are naming drivers who have passed their peak in touring cars. Yes, those people were fast... ten years ago. Fabrizio Giovanardi has been fast in touring cars for 10 years, no need to have two veterans on the team.
And I don't think the Vauxhall man ever said Tom Chilton was chosen because he was the fastest available driver.
He was chosen because he was young, a race winner with the potential to improve further, and good for marketing. The cruisers who dream of Corsa VXR's probably dream of being a teenage BTCC driver too.
Obviously this year he has been totally obscured in the shadow of his teammate, if he is not in the team for his financial contribution then obviously he will be sweating on his seat right now.
I think once the navel gazing had been done I'd be the first to stand up and say Colin T's performance was far better than we realised. As for defending my drivers....well its called being a team.
The DTM comment was a bit unfair as the background behind the Opel performance was as much car as driver.
However on the usual culprits ;
Obvious culptits already taken - Hang on Thommo was axed from SEAT at the end of 2006 so he was available, Anthony Reid has done nothing all year, so have race winners like Dan Eaves, Phil Bennett, Alan Morrison, Rydell and even old hands like David Leslie, Kelvin Burt...and Tom Chilton was reckoned to be faster than any of the above? Please.
Well Thommo won't be coming to the UK for some time and wanted to stay in WTC. Reid - we can't afford the bills , Dan Eaves was on a short list , Phil I've not forgiven for blowing up 2 possibly 3 road cars - and Phil I know you're on here
, Rydell was a possible and the others were not considered. So yes Tom was considered to be a potential young champ in the making.
Stu
The DTM comment was a bit unfair as the background behind the Opel performance was as much car as driver.
However on the usual culprits ;
Obvious culptits already taken - Hang on Thommo was axed from SEAT at the end of 2006 so he was available, Anthony Reid has done nothing all year, so have race winners like Dan Eaves, Phil Bennett, Alan Morrison, Rydell and even old hands like David Leslie, Kelvin Burt...and Tom Chilton was reckoned to be faster than any of the above? Please.
Well Thommo won't be coming to the UK for some time and wanted to stay in WTC. Reid - we can't afford the bills , Dan Eaves was on a short list , Phil I've not forgiven for blowing up 2 possibly 3 road cars - and Phil I know you're on here
, Rydell was a possible and the others were not considered. So yes Tom was considered to be a potential young champ in the making.Stu
stu harris said:
I think once the navel gazing had been done I'd be the first to stand up and say Colin T's performance was far better than we realised. As for defending my drivers....well its called being a team.
The DTM comment was a bit unfair as the background behind the Opel performance was as much car as driver.
However on the usual culprits ;
Obvious culptits already taken - Hang on Thommo was axed from SEAT at the end of 2006 so he was available, Anthony Reid has done nothing all year, so have race winners like Dan Eaves, Phil Bennett, Alan Morrison, Rydell and even old hands like David Leslie, Kelvin Burt...and Tom Chilton was reckoned to be faster than any of the above? Please.
Well Thommo won't be coming to the UK for some time and wanted to stay in WTC. Reid - we can't afford the bills , Dan Eaves was on a short list , Phil I've not forgiven for blowing up 2 possibly 3 road cars - and Phil I know you're on here , Rydell was a possible and the others were not considered. So yes Tom was considered to be a potential young champ in the making.
Stu
You want suggestions, Paul O'Niell for starters, ....... he was giving passenger rides, alongside Tom Chilton on all the VXR days earlier this year, ... he was quicker, smoother & kept the car on the circuit, whereas TC had a problem keeping it on, .... a complete embarrassment!!! He threw itt off at least four times!!! PO has been up at the sharp end for Vauxhall before, so he can do it again. The DTM comment was a bit unfair as the background behind the Opel performance was as much car as driver.
However on the usual culprits ;
Obvious culptits already taken - Hang on Thommo was axed from SEAT at the end of 2006 so he was available, Anthony Reid has done nothing all year, so have race winners like Dan Eaves, Phil Bennett, Alan Morrison, Rydell and even old hands like David Leslie, Kelvin Burt...and Tom Chilton was reckoned to be faster than any of the above? Please.
Well Thommo won't be coming to the UK for some time and wanted to stay in WTC. Reid - we can't afford the bills , Dan Eaves was on a short list , Phil I've not forgiven for blowing up 2 possibly 3 road cars - and Phil I know you're on here
, Rydell was a possible and the others were not considered. So yes Tom was considered to be a potential young champ in the making.Stu
Then you have Danny Buxton, Who could outdrive Dan Eaves at any circuit, but due to "team orders", never had the opportunity in BTCC, to show his true talent, .... but just look back to 2003/4 Clios and who put Team Boulevard on the map!! He won the championship in 2003, and would have won again in 2004, had he not made the mistake of moving to BTCC.
So there are two for starters, .... I know that Danny Buxton would make TC look like the beginner he is!!!
Without wishing to get into an argument, O'Neil is not at the Giovanardi level. A very useful driver, yes, but would also have been blown away by FG.
TC looked a decent prospect going into this season, but has been battered by the talent and consistency of his team mate. It's a downward spiral.
TC looked a decent prospect going into this season, but has been battered by the talent and consistency of his team mate. It's a downward spiral.
Ahonen said:
Without wishing to get into an argument, O'Neil is not at the Giovanardi level. A very useful driver, yes, but would also have been blown away by FG.
TC looked a decent prospect going into this season, but has been battered by the talent and consistency of his team mate. It's a downward spiral.
I would have to disagree, I know doth PO & TC personally, and Paul is a far more "useful" driver than Tom, and the differential between PO & FG would be far less than the existing differential betweenFG and TC!TC looked a decent prospect going into this season, but has been battered by the talent and consistency of his team mate. It's a downward spiral.
rubystone said:
Racefan_uk said:
This is the same GM that's in financial dire straights because it's spent all of its pension funds and now has no surplus cash...
Vauxhall is a very small part of the GM jigsaw and they're not likely to spend an extra 100K when they can get it coming in from a pay driver, who's not that slow anyway.
That doesn't stop Ford putting money into WRC though does it? Or GM spending fortunes in NASCAR truck racing in the US. £100k or more likely £200k is a drip in the ocean compared with the costs of running the team, but I'm betting that Chilton pays far more than that for his seat. Vauxhall is a very small part of the GM jigsaw and they're not likely to spend an extra 100K when they can get it coming in from a pay driver, who's not that slow anyway.
GM is spending $$$ on NASCAR as the biggest selling vehicle in the US is the Ford Truck which they obviously want to change!
US is such a huge market and NASCAR is the biggest single market of car interested prospects.
UK is very small market in world terms and Vauxhall is a small part of GM - BTCC is just a pimple in real terms.
Rydell etc want a lot more than £100K btw!
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