Discussion
Driving home tonight I had the following situation; but was I right to feel angry about the other drivers reaction, or was I in the wrong?
Three cars in a line with me following, 2-3 car lengths in between each of the 3 vehicles travelling at ~ 50mph on an NSL A road.
I decide to overtake along a straight stretch with good visibility and where I can see ~ 1/4 mile ahead 2 vehicles turning onto the road intending to head in the same direction as me, the first of which was a lorry.
I planned my overtake such that I would pull in in front of the three vehicles, slow down behind the two recently joined, thus being in the right position to overtake them, assuming clear road, in a few corners time.
I got past the first car and realised that the second vehicle turning onto the road had swung a wide arc, changed their mind and was heading towards me.
I decided to abort the manoeuvre earlier rather than push on and potentially cause a problem with the oncoming car, so I indicated and started to move into the 2-3 car length space, at which point the driver behind speeded up and tried to force me back onto the wrong carriageway into the path of the oncoming car.
A split second decision saw me 'fake' a movement of pulling in again to give him notice that I was indeed pulling in and then I did pull in after he had dropped back slightly, still with a few hundred metres between me and the oncoming car.
Que lots of gesticulating etc from the driver concerned, who then proceeded to take huge risks in order to keep on my rear bumper over the next 10 miles back to my home town, and then proceeded to follow me whilst still driving aggresively.
I managed to lose him with a few back streets and got home, but it left me questioning myself as to whether I was in the wrong or not. It is not the first time I have had an adverse reaction to perfectly safe overtaking, and I seem to remember a thread on here recently along the same lines.
Your thoughts please. I have just signed up to RoSPA and am awaiting contact from a Tutor, possible one to run pas him as well.
Three cars in a line with me following, 2-3 car lengths in between each of the 3 vehicles travelling at ~ 50mph on an NSL A road.
I decide to overtake along a straight stretch with good visibility and where I can see ~ 1/4 mile ahead 2 vehicles turning onto the road intending to head in the same direction as me, the first of which was a lorry.
I planned my overtake such that I would pull in in front of the three vehicles, slow down behind the two recently joined, thus being in the right position to overtake them, assuming clear road, in a few corners time.
I got past the first car and realised that the second vehicle turning onto the road had swung a wide arc, changed their mind and was heading towards me.
I decided to abort the manoeuvre earlier rather than push on and potentially cause a problem with the oncoming car, so I indicated and started to move into the 2-3 car length space, at which point the driver behind speeded up and tried to force me back onto the wrong carriageway into the path of the oncoming car.
A split second decision saw me 'fake' a movement of pulling in again to give him notice that I was indeed pulling in and then I did pull in after he had dropped back slightly, still with a few hundred metres between me and the oncoming car.
Que lots of gesticulating etc from the driver concerned, who then proceeded to take huge risks in order to keep on my rear bumper over the next 10 miles back to my home town, and then proceeded to follow me whilst still driving aggresively.
I managed to lose him with a few back streets and got home, but it left me questioning myself as to whether I was in the wrong or not. It is not the first time I have had an adverse reaction to perfectly safe overtaking, and I seem to remember a thread on here recently along the same lines.
Your thoughts please. I have just signed up to RoSPA and am awaiting contact from a Tutor, possible one to run pas him as well.
I'm reading that as though the emerging vehicles were in a junction ahead on the right hand side of the road, and this answer is worded accordingly.
Junctions to the right can present two major problems when you're looking to overtake.
Firstly, the vehicle(s) you're planning to overtake could be about to turn right into the junction, which can cause you considerable problems if you're on the offside of the road and accelerating hard when they make their manoeuvre.
Secondly, a vehicle or vehicles could emerge from the junction and turn left. Watch most drivers when they approach a T junction intending to turn left - they'll look right to see if it's clear to pull out, but they won't look left to check for overtaking vehicles. If a vehicle pulls out from a junction on the right and turns left when you're in the middle of an overtake, then the potential consequences are obvious.
Claiming later that you didn't realise which way the vehicle in the junction was going to turn doesn't really wash, as the correct course of action if there's a junction to the right (and particularly one with vehicles about to emerge), is to delay your overtake until you're past the junction.
This doesn't excuse the overtaken driver's response in your case, of course. People who accelerate when they're being overtaken have been discussed at length on here a number of times, and it's universally accepted to be an extremely dangerous and aggressive thing to do.
However, as I've said before, look at this incident as a learning opportunity, see where you went wrong (or could have performed better), and your driving will improve as a result.
Junctions to the right can present two major problems when you're looking to overtake.
Firstly, the vehicle(s) you're planning to overtake could be about to turn right into the junction, which can cause you considerable problems if you're on the offside of the road and accelerating hard when they make their manoeuvre.
Secondly, a vehicle or vehicles could emerge from the junction and turn left. Watch most drivers when they approach a T junction intending to turn left - they'll look right to see if it's clear to pull out, but they won't look left to check for overtaking vehicles. If a vehicle pulls out from a junction on the right and turns left when you're in the middle of an overtake, then the potential consequences are obvious.
Claiming later that you didn't realise which way the vehicle in the junction was going to turn doesn't really wash, as the correct course of action if there's a junction to the right (and particularly one with vehicles about to emerge), is to delay your overtake until you're past the junction.
This doesn't excuse the overtaken driver's response in your case, of course. People who accelerate when they're being overtaken have been discussed at length on here a number of times, and it's universally accepted to be an extremely dangerous and aggressive thing to do.
However, as I've said before, look at this incident as a learning opportunity, see where you went wrong (or could have performed better), and your driving will improve as a result.
I agree with RUL.
I had an incident many years ago when I was overtaking on a long NSL single carriage way which had a T junction on my right up ahead. There was no driver at the junction when I began the manoeuvre, but one appeared and began to emerge to his left (towards me in the lane I'm using for the overtake). Fortunately for all involved he looked in my direction at the last moment and stayed in the side road until I had passed.
Needless to say that was a wakeup call and I now wait until I'm past that junction before committing to an overtake on that road.
I guess the point is 'don't overtake where there are side roads.'
(The guy accelerating while you overtook was also in the wrong.)
I had an incident many years ago when I was overtaking on a long NSL single carriage way which had a T junction on my right up ahead. There was no driver at the junction when I began the manoeuvre, but one appeared and began to emerge to his left (towards me in the lane I'm using for the overtake). Fortunately for all involved he looked in my direction at the last moment and stayed in the side road until I had passed.
Needless to say that was a wakeup call and I now wait until I'm past that junction before committing to an overtake on that road.
I guess the point is 'don't overtake where there are side roads.'
(The guy accelerating while you overtook was also in the wrong.)
Just an amatuer comment compared to Regs' reply really...but, as an observer, I teach the need for a 15mph differential for considering an overtake on ONE target - not three.
I don't have the brain right now to work out SAFE vision at 50ish over a quarter mile for hazards,from nearside/offside/friggin' Muppets...for doing THREE targets...I would sit back and wait.
You did it, it got iffy, you coped with it, you came on here and asked...you learned...as a pal of mine says...Steps up Ladder!
BOF.
I don't have the brain right now to work out SAFE vision at 50ish over a quarter mile for hazards,from nearside/offside/friggin' Muppets...for doing THREE targets...I would sit back and wait.
You did it, it got iffy, you coped with it, you came on here and asked...you learned...as a pal of mine says...Steps up Ladder!
BOF.
Edited by BOF on Thursday 20th September 20:57
Everything R_U_LOCAL has said with a couple of additions.
When you started you were doing three & with gaps of only 2-3 car lengths between each, it doesn't sound like there were sociable stop over gaps to do less. It was three or none. You had to abort because you misread the situation. You made assumptions that you shouldn't have. When you started the overtake seeing that junction up there, you shouldn't have gone unless you were certain you could take all three & regain nearside position in good time, no matter what appeared from it & drove towards you. If you couldn't do that you shouldn't start the overtake.
Having made that error, the other car on seeing that should try to help you out by reducing risk, rather than raise the stakes & then act like a petulant fool afterwards.
When you started you were doing three & with gaps of only 2-3 car lengths between each, it doesn't sound like there were sociable stop over gaps to do less. It was three or none. You had to abort because you misread the situation. You made assumptions that you shouldn't have. When you started the overtake seeing that junction up there, you shouldn't have gone unless you were certain you could take all three & regain nearside position in good time, no matter what appeared from it & drove towards you. If you couldn't do that you shouldn't start the overtake.
Having made that error, the other car on seeing that should try to help you out by reducing risk, rather than raise the stakes & then act like a petulant fool afterwards.
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th September 21:39
Thanks for the input guys.
As identified, yes I did make assumptions, yes one of them did turn out to be inaccurate, yes I did deal with it, yes I have learnt something
I never overtake coming up to junctions, even if there is good visibility, however tonight I made an assumption and ignored what I normally do.
The road in question is from Swindon / Wroughton down to Avebury if anyone knows it.
As identified, yes I did make assumptions, yes one of them did turn out to be inaccurate, yes I did deal with it, yes I have learnt something
I never overtake coming up to junctions, even if there is good visibility, however tonight I made an assumption and ignored what I normally do.
The road in question is from Swindon / Wroughton down to Avebury if anyone knows it.
Edited by M005 on Thursday 20th September 23:01
1) The driver who gesticulated behind you is an idiot, who clearly doesn't understand the highway code. He shouldn't be allowed to drive a car. End of story.
2) I'm not sure I'd have attempted a three car overtaking manouvre with a junction 300 yards ahead. You never know what might happen. What if a biker hidden from view had flicked out of the junction and accelerated hard? I've seen it done. At 60mph you'll cover a quarter of a mile in 15 seconds. I suppose a one car overtaking manouvre is fine in that time, which to be honest is actually what you did, bringing us back to point 1 above.
2) I'm not sure I'd have attempted a three car overtaking manouvre with a junction 300 yards ahead. You never know what might happen. What if a biker hidden from view had flicked out of the junction and accelerated hard? I've seen it done. At 60mph you'll cover a quarter of a mile in 15 seconds. I suppose a one car overtaking manouvre is fine in that time, which to be honest is actually what you did, bringing us back to point 1 above.
I can't abide drivers who take it upon themselves to behave like this. We all make mistakes. As drivers we need to be alert to the potential mistakes of others and allow for them. As soon as a car begins to pass me I'll back off the throttle to ensure they complete the manoeuver as quickly as possible and give them the space to pull into. With the situation developing ahead the driver of the other car should be ashamed (and prosecuted because) of his actions.
You made a simple mistake, but it was compounded by the malicious actions of another driver who had obviously taken it upon himself to punish you further for that error.
It sounds like your rospa course has come at the right time. It'll rebuild your confidence and show you how better anticipation and planning can prevent you from repeating this mistake. As for the other driver - his heart attack will take care of him in good time.
You made a simple mistake, but it was compounded by the malicious actions of another driver who had obviously taken it upon himself to punish you further for that error.
It sounds like your rospa course has come at the right time. It'll rebuild your confidence and show you how better anticipation and planning can prevent you from repeating this mistake. As for the other driver - his heart attack will take care of him in good time.
I'm surprised you haven't noticed this before. All forms of overtaking are now illegal in this country. Luckily this new ruling is enforced by absolutely thousands of utter morons flashing their lights and generally getting incredibly excited by anyone daring to venture out of their lane.....
The only thing I would add is that if anyone finds themselves in the situation whereby your return space has been closed, then if faced between a head-on or forcing your way into a gap, the latter is preferable. I don't mean as amatter of course, I mean where an overtake has gone totally pear shaped and you HAVE to get back in.
Avoid the head on at all costs. Better to have a slight collision to your left than a massive collision straight ahead.
Avoid the head on at all costs. Better to have a slight collision to your left than a massive collision straight ahead.
mrmr96 said:
I guess the point is 'don't overtake where there are side roads.'
(The guy accelerating while you overtook was also in the wrong.)
(The guy accelerating while you overtook was also in the wrong.)
Basically yes. Side roads = possibility of of emerging traffic = situation could change from being safe to overtake to being unsafe to overtake easily. If in doubt, therefore, don't do it.
You need to be able to complete the overtake before anything emerging from any junction or side road could possibly interfere with the manouvre - i.e. they need to be a long way away...
ipsg.glf said:
The only thing I would add is that if anyone finds themselves in the situation whereby your return space has been closed, then if faced between a head-on or forcing your way into a gap, the latter is preferable. I don't mean as amatter of course, I mean where an overtake has gone totally pear shaped and you HAVE to get back in.
Avoid the head on at all costs. Better to have a slight collision to your left than a massive collision straight ahead.
Avoid the head on at all costs. Better to have a slight collision to your left than a massive collision straight ahead.
If I had to choose between the certain death of a head on and sideswiping an idiot that had contributed to the situation I'd do the latter every time. I am certain I'd get a DD charge but I'd rather not die.Don said:
ipsg.glf said:
The only thing I would add is that if anyone finds themselves in the situation whereby your return space has been closed, then if faced between a head-on or forcing your way into a gap, the latter is preferable. I don't mean as amatter of course, I mean where an overtake has gone totally pear shaped and you HAVE to get back in.
Avoid the head on at all costs. Better to have a slight collision to your left than a massive collision straight ahead.
Avoid the head on at all costs. Better to have a slight collision to your left than a massive collision straight ahead.
If I had to choose between the certain death of a head on and sideswiping an idiot that had contributed to the situation I'd do the latter every time. I am certain I'd get a DD charge but I'd rather not die.RobM77 said:
Don said:
ipsg.glf said:
Avoid the head on at all costs. Better to have a slight collision to your left than a massive collision straight ahead.
If I had to choose between the certain death of a head on and sideswiping an idiot that had contributed to the situation I'd do the latter every time. I am certain I'd get a DD charge but I'd rather not die.All in all, I'd say if a DD or CD were to land on you it may be deserved, but it could also fail to become a conviction. Best to avoid the situation by making sure your overtakes are well planned and decisive.
Some interesting points.
I wonder if some of the issues and reactions to overtaking that have been discussed on here, are due to the increase in traffic levels and the need to take advantage of smaller window's of opportunity than ideal in order to overtake?
The perfect overtake would always have plenty of time and space, but these situations are often few and far between.
Instead the opportunities are often 'short lived' and may require a two or three stage approach to get past a few vehicles.
I guess the point is that perfect opportunities rarely exist requiring higher skill levels in order to maximise those opportunities that are available.
I wonder if some of the issues and reactions to overtaking that have been discussed on here, are due to the increase in traffic levels and the need to take advantage of smaller window's of opportunity than ideal in order to overtake?
The perfect overtake would always have plenty of time and space, but these situations are often few and far between.
Instead the opportunities are often 'short lived' and may require a two or three stage approach to get past a few vehicles.
I guess the point is that perfect opportunities rarely exist requiring higher skill levels in order to maximise those opportunities that are available.
M005 said:
Some interesting points.
I wonder if some of the issues and reactions to overtaking that have been discussed on here, are due to the increase in traffic levels and the need to take advantage of smaller window's of opportunity than ideal in order to overtake?
I'm sure they are.I wonder if some of the issues and reactions to overtaking that have been discussed on here, are due to the increase in traffic levels and the need to take advantage of smaller window's of opportunity than ideal in order to overtake?
I condemn the actions of the other driver just like everybody else, but just wearing the other shoes for a moment, there are folk that say (at least one on here, an Advanced site for Gawds sake) that they will push/force their way in if it allows them to overtake. Yep, they believe that even if there isn't space, they have a right to go anyway, and the other drivers are duty bound to change their speed and position, to allow the overtaker in.
So imagine a driver who has had a few of these d!ckheads overtake, and then they meet you making an innocent mistake. No justification for his actions, but you can sometimes see why they get annoyed.
So not only does a good overtake make it safer for you, it makes it safer for unknown others who will follow. A bad one is not only dangerous for you, but you make it dangerous for unknown others that will follow.
Blimey, what a responsibility. It's almost too much to shoulder!
BFF
Big Fat F'r said:
M005 said:
Some interesting points.
I wonder if some of the issues and reactions to overtaking that have been discussed on here, are due to the increase in traffic levels and the need to take advantage of smaller window's of opportunity than ideal in order to overtake?
I'm sure they are.I wonder if some of the issues and reactions to overtaking that have been discussed on here, are due to the increase in traffic levels and the need to take advantage of smaller window's of opportunity than ideal in order to overtake?
I condemn the actions of the other driver just like everybody else, but just wearing the other shoes for a moment, there are folk that say (at least one on here, an Advanced site for Gawds sake) that they will push/force their way in if it allows them to overtake. Yep, they believe that even if there isn't space, they have a right to go anyway, and the other drivers are duty bound to change their speed and position, to allow the overtaker in.
So imagine a driver who has had a few of these d!ckheads overtake, and then they meet you making an innocent mistake. No justification for his actions, but you can sometimes see why they get annoyed.
So not only does a good overtake make it safer for you, it makes it safer for unknown others who will follow. A bad one is not only dangerous for you, but you make it dangerous for unknown others that will follow.
Blimey, what a responsibility. It's almost too much to shoulder!
BFF
RobM77 said:
Big Fat F'r said:
M005 said:
Some interesting points.
I wonder if some of the issues and reactions to overtaking that have been discussed on here, are due to the increase in traffic levels and the need to take advantage of smaller window's of opportunity than ideal in order to overtake?
I'm sure they are.I wonder if some of the issues and reactions to overtaking that have been discussed on here, are due to the increase in traffic levels and the need to take advantage of smaller window's of opportunity than ideal in order to overtake?
I condemn the actions of the other driver just like everybody else, but just wearing the other shoes for a moment, there are folk that say (at least one on here, an Advanced site for Gawds sake) that they will push/force their way in if it allows them to overtake. Yep, they believe that even if there isn't space, they have a right to go anyway, and the other drivers are duty bound to change their speed and position, to allow the overtaker in.
So imagine a driver who has had a few of these d!ckheads overtake, and then they meet you making an innocent mistake. No justification for his actions, but you can sometimes see why they get annoyed.
So not only does a good overtake make it safer for you, it makes it safer for unknown others who will follow. A bad one is not only dangerous for you, but you make it dangerous for unknown others that will follow.
Blimey, what a responsibility. It's almost too much to shoulder!
BFF
I have a question I hope that the good and the great on here may be able to help with.
In the OP's case, he mentions gaps of 2-3 cars at 50mph.
Is it possible that when pulling back into the space, you tend to leave more room in front rather than behind, and it may therefore appear that the car behind has closed up, rather than them having intentionally floored it?
ie It looks like a big enough gap, but the reality is, that once you take up one car length of a 3 car gap, the car behind you will be at most, one car length behind, assuimg no-one closes in/eases off.
Added to "Objects in the rear view mirror appearing closer than you think" and thet [i]could[/] explain the other drivers initial actions. The rest was obviously incorrect. Did the OP try and apologise by way of a polite hand gesture? I tend to always thank cars that I overtake, if a multiple overtake forces me to abandon it and fall into the middle of the "pack".
I find it hard (but not impossible) to believe that all these various people keep encountering other drivers that would willingly force you into a head on collision?
Maybe my faith in human nature is too great?
And good reaction by the OP to the responses on here - it takes a stroong man to:
1 Ask for advice
2 Heed it
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