The advanced outlook and navigating, sat-navs and stuff.

[Heebeegeetee]

Hi Guys,

This is something i have been pondering for some time: How the advanced driver navigates.

On any advanced driving exercise i have ever seen or sat with, the advanced driver has always known where he is going, or he has a passenger who tells him where to go. But in most ordinary every day situations the driver, be it the business driver or lorry driver or whoever, will be on his own. How does advanced driving cope with having to navigate as well? How do you plan your driving when you literally don't know where you're going?

Furthermore, how does the advanced driver navigate safely and legally at night? Reason for asking, i have just posted on another thread http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... so I'll just repost the part pertinent to this thread:

>>For anybody who doubts the merits of sat-nav, I have an exercise that would really nail this one, and we don't have to go anywhere exotic. Just Leicester.

We could meet at a pub on the A5 adjacent to junction 1 of the M69 one evening, and then we get in the car and i give the driver an address in Leicester, and I would dearly love to see the driver navigate his way there by map at night. I'd love to see how legally and safely this can be done. Exercises have been done before of map v sat-nav, but forget them, like many 'safety' exercises they were completely dishonest because the map car always had 2 people in whereas the sat-nav car would have one, and to my knowledge the exercises were never carried out at night.

I would dearly love to do this, it would only take an evening and we could have a meal at the pub. We could have 4 people in the car and record and report the drivers experience for PH. I would also love to do it 'cos i do wonder 'if it's me' and should i be doing a better job without sat-nav?

Personally, i believe sat-nav is a major contribution to road safety, but this country really does have a problem with technology and the acceptance of it, IMO.<<

Why Leicester? 'Cos for a provincial medium sized town, they don't half seem to have made a dogs dinner of the road system, and it seems far more difficult to get about than it should be.

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on this guys. I'm off to work in a bit so will reply tomorrow.

[joewilliams]

I've never had a satnav, but I do have an A-Z of Leicester in my car

My normal technique is to look at the map at the start of the journey, and find a place to get to which is reasonably close to my destination. If it's a town I've never been to before, that will normally just be a motorway junction number, and the road number & direction I want when I get there.

I'll then look at a more detailed map (stopping to buy a local a-z if necessary), and see if there's a decent landmark nearby. Railway stations are good, or even a particular road. I then aim for that, and check the map again once I get there.

IME, directions from MultiMap, MapQuest etc are bloody useless. I do use Google maps to print off detailed maps of the area I'm aiming for, but have given up ever trying to follow the directions they produce.

When I've used satnav, I've found it to be useful. *But* I always check a normal map first so I know where I'm supposed to be going.

[mph999]

Agree with OP ...

I use sat nav whenever necessary, and always get the name of an agacent road so I can confirm the sat nav is correct, in 2 years it's only been wrong once, so not bad.

I don't understand why people seem to think they're such an issue, yep, my map is out-of-date slightly, so occassionally get told to say turn right but there's a no right turn sign, so I don't, I just pick another road and re-route.

Does it distract me, nope, I'm more relaxed, as I don't need to be concerned about getting lost. At more complex junctions, perhaps a quick glance at the screen to confirm what it is saying, a glance that to me is no different than looking at the speedo, so overall, I see it as a safety aid, as I can concentrate on my driving, and not trying to read /remember directions.

Overall, top bit of kit - wouldn't be without it.

Martin

[Brother Mycroft]

To some extent a good sat-nav is an aid to the roads sweeps and turns and is in fact an invaluable aid to confirm what you observe in advance.

For example it can warn of a hidden junction down a straight that is qiuite possible to miss even with extensive experience can confirm the sightings on hedges that follow the road line the list is endless.

I only hope that the next generation of maps will be just slightly more accurate on these matters, at that point sat-nav becomes a true driving aid.

Add to that its original purpose of getting you to your destination without frustration [frustration causes impatience which causes the occasional dumb move] and really it should be lauded not decried.

[Graebob]

I would never claim to be an advanced driver, but I do drive a lot as a courier, and have used both sat navs and maps to find my way to places I had no idea of the way to. My experience follows.

Sat navs, in general, are very good (bearing in mind I have no experience of "built in" nav, only 4 or 5 models of external unit). Most of the current crop give you timely advice on which junction to turn at, with useful maps to see on the screen at the right time. They are superb if you don't know where you're going and aren't too fussed about how you quickly you get there. However, over reliance on them will end up causing you trouble, and can be distracting. If one is driving and receives an unexpected instruction, it is tempting to pull a confused face and stare at the sat nav to figure out what's going on, which is obviously really stupid. They also can take you unexpected ways, or take you down roads which are unsuitable and sometimes just plain don't exist.

Map reading is an incredibly useful skill. In order to properly plan a route anywhere, I firmly beleive in map reading, since it is the most accurate information and you can use your own judgement about the appropriate route. In general, it's not too hard to remember the directions for the next little while of your journey, and I find it keeps your senses a little keener and concentrated on what you are doing, because you are watching the road for markers. However, when you get it wrong (which inevitably happens) it is very frustrating, and human error can sometimes not be detected for miles. It is then necessary to pull over, work out where you are and backtrack. A sat nav would do this automatically.

Overall, sat navs are a useful aid, but should not be relied on imho

[Brother Mycroft]

I tend to drive in the 3D mode if actually going somewhere without spedition, I turn the unit to 2D for pressing on... this gives a very good bit of advanced warning of juntions, turns and sweeps on the road ahead.

[RobM77]

Sat Navs are an absolute godsend, and if used correctly, should make driving safer, especially with such poor signing on our roads. A quick glance at a Sat Nav map or a listen to the audio instructions is, in my opinion, far safer than staring at a roadsign trying to find out which small town that you've never heard of is in the rough direction of your final location! Often people forget about mental effort - being told simply and quickly to take the next left leaves far more of your brain to be dedicated to driving safely than worrying about whether the next left is correct or not. Even if sat nav sends you down the odd blind alley, at least you'll arrive there safely, having had your eyes and mind on the road.

[Zeek]

As the number of satnav units out there has increased, I've seen a lot less people driving with a map on the steering wheel....got to be a good thing in that respect!

[BIG DUNC]

I don't have a sat nav yet, but will be buying shortly.

I am sure that a print out of streetmap ( or a real map, or directions ) on my knee is not as safe as a voice "turn left in 300 yards", with a nice picture to show it.

Definately a safety feature.

[Mr Whippy]

I used a SatNav to get to Edinburgh recently, well, the last 5 miles into the city and to the B&B... it was, well, 50:50...

I found the biggest issue was it's preference for silly roads over main roads assuming they were quicker, incorrect road data, using poor right hand turns (with lots of traffic) over the routes locals would use, or a well planned route prior to leaving.

To be honest, it saved me time, I'd normally research my route for an hour before leaving, look at the satellite imagery for the lay of the land, junction types/styles etc, and draw a rough map with landmarks off sat photo's and road names etc...

I worried mainly that I'd forget the route and just aimlessly follow the sat-nav, but I'm confident I can remember every leg of the journey and repeat it right now, which is nice


So, handy tool, but no replacement, still, for having a good research first and knowing roughly what your looking for before hand. Truth be told the difficult bits are always the last 5 miles to the actual destination, getting to say Cardiff, right now, is obvious, find big motorway, aim SSW (from Leeds) and follow the signs till you get there.

Dave

[Heebeegeetee]

I'd still be very interested in how the advanced driver would navigate at night. If the exercise meant you didn't know where you were going until its time to set off, (which is what i have to do each night at work), and you have a deadline, (ditto), how would the advanced driver manage it and stay safe, legal and to the ethos of the IAM?

And incidentally, are you allowed to stop on double yellows to check a map?

[Kinky]

I tend to print off all the key highlights of a route in a 20pt font, so I can see immediately at a quick glance.

Although, that said, I think a satnav would be invaluable for the aural aids

K

[RobM77]

Kinky said:

I tend to print off all the key highlights of a route in a 20pt font, so I can see immediately at a quick glance.

Although, that said, I think a satnav would be invaluable for the aural aids

K

I'd argue that a quick glance at a skeleton view of the next junction is better than a quick glance at large font text. My Sat Nav gives me this:



I get a ping when half a mile from the junction, and then a different sound when the road's right in front of me. The whole thing is done with just one quick glance after the first ping. I also have the option of looking earlier when it is safer to do so.

Maybe it's because I'm a visual thinker, but that for me is quicker and safer to glance at than:

TURN RIGHT INTO FOWLER ROAD

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 15th October 09:26

[Mr Whippy]

Problem is in urban areas, the message is said (In 100 yards, turn right), and by the time they say 'right' you are 10 yards away, and wondering if it's this right or the next right about 75 yards away now...

So you do need to get used to it's timing/yardage method. I'd prefer metres to be honest but if I turn on metric then I get km's which are awfull in the UK with miles on signs.... arghhh

Best system, when it's viable, will be HUD sat nav, so it can actually draw an arrow or highlight roads for you

Dave

[RobM77]

Mr Whippy said:

Problem is in urban areas, the message is said (In 100 yards, turn right), and by the time they say 'right' you are 10 yards away, and wondering if it's this right or the next right about 75 yards away now...

So you do need to get used to it's timing/yardage method. I'd prefer metres to be honest but if I turn on metric then I get km's which are awfull in the UK with miles on signs.... arghhh

Best system, when it's viable, will be HUD sat nav, so it can actually draw an arrow or highlight roads for you

Dave

Depends on the Sat Nav. I've used several and this timing issue is a problem for some but not for others.

[TripleS]

RobM77 said:

Mr Whippy said:

Problem is in urban areas, the message is said (In 100 yards, turn right), and by the time they say 'right' you are 10 yards away, and wondering if it's this right or the next right about 75 yards away now...

So you do need to get used to it's timing/yardage method. I'd prefer metres to be honest but if I turn on metric then I get km's which are awfull in the UK with miles on signs.... arghhh

Best system, when it's viable, will be HUD sat nav, so it can actually draw an arrow or highlight roads for you

Dave

Depends on the Sat Nav. I've used several and this timing issue is a problem for some but not for others.

I'm still using my old Navman iCN630 (this is Don's fault, he recommended it ) and actually I've found it pretty good and certainly very helpful in trying to find my way round the West Midlands, for example, when on car delivery jobs. You can't always rely on the voice commands, sometimes they're wrong, so it needs verifying with a glance at the display; otherwise you may find yourself taking the first exit at a roundabout, when what you really wanted was the second exit, etc.

On balance I think they're a good thing in safety terms, and certainly better than trying to read a map or refer to other instructions while on the move. To be honest I used to find I didn't want to stop and preferred to keep on the move, and of course in some inner city areas it's not always possible to find a suitable place to stop.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[RobM77]

TripleS said:

RobM77 said:

Mr Whippy said:

Problem is in urban areas, the message is said (In 100 yards, turn right), and by the time they say 'right' you are 10 yards away, and wondering if it's this right or the next right about 75 yards away now...

So you do need to get used to it's timing/yardage method. I'd prefer metres to be honest but if I turn on metric then I get km's which are awfull in the UK with miles on signs.... arghhh

Best system, when it's viable, will be HUD sat nav, so it can actually draw an arrow or highlight roads for you

Dave

Depends on the Sat Nav. I've used several and this timing issue is a problem for some but not for others.

I'm still using my old Navman iCN630 (this is Don's fault, he recommended it ) and actually I've found it pretty good and certainly very helpful in trying to find my way round the West Midlands, for example, when on car delivery jobs. You can't always rely on the voice commands, sometimes they're wrong, so it needs verifying with a glance at the display; otherwise you may find yourself taking the first exit at a roundabout, when what you really wanted was the second exit, etc.

On balance I think they're a good thing in safety terms, and certainly better than trying to read a map or refer to other instructions while on the move. To be honest I used to find I didn't want to stop and preferred to keep on the move, and of course in some inner city areas it's not always possible to find a suitable place to stop.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Good point. I remember when I was a trainer before I had a Sat Nav I would always be travelling up on a Sunday night to a hotel in a strange town. Because it was so dangerous and impractical to follow written directions, I used to just arrive in the town and drive round until I found the hotel. This technique never failed me! It's funny to think I used to do that though, whereas now I just wind my way along the perfect route to the hotel like a local would. Sat Nav really is a life changing invention

[Mr Whippy]

TripleS said:

RobM77 said:

Mr Whippy said:

Problem is in urban areas, the message is said (In 100 yards, turn right), and by the time they say 'right' you are 10 yards away, and wondering if it's this right or the next right about 75 yards away now...

So you do need to get used to it's timing/yardage method. I'd prefer metres to be honest but if I turn on metric then I get km's which are awfull in the UK with miles on signs.... arghhh

Best system, when it's viable, will be HUD sat nav, so it can actually draw an arrow or highlight roads for you

Dave

Depends on the Sat Nav. I've used several and this timing issue is a problem for some but not for others.

I'm still using my old Navman iCN630 (this is Don's fault, he recommended it ) and actually I've found it pretty good and certainly very helpful in trying to find my way round the West Midlands, for example, when on car delivery jobs. You can't always rely on the voice commands, sometimes they're wrong, so it needs verifying with a glance at the display; otherwise you may find yourself taking the first exit at a roundabout, when what you really wanted was the second exit, etc.

On balance I think they're a good thing in safety terms, and certainly better than trying to read a map or refer to other instructions while on the move. To be honest I used to find I didn't want to stop and preferred to keep on the move, and of course in some inner city areas it's not always possible to find a suitable place to stop.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Yep, just like any driver aid you need to get used to it, and I was in what I found to be a poorly marked, randomly crappy Edinburgh road network with lots of uber wide streets with no white lines etc... argghhhh. I'm sure without the satnav I'd have been properly lost and stressed, so even though I read it wrong a few times (one point it zoomed out and I lost detail right where I needed it to be zoomed in), it got me back to where I needed to be and I just let it take me there

My main worry was loosing my own sign/direction skills, but I still knew where North was, and generally where I was relative to other things, but I feel I'll only use it for the last parts of journeys (ie, into cities or random places along long country lanes), main road network is so well signed you really don't need satnav.

All good, will still be keeping my A to Z's in the car, unless I get a VX220 then I'll dump them on weight grounds

Dave

[RobM77]

I must confess I've always had a gripe with signing on main roads. If you turn off a main road then you'll find that very few of them are named in a way that visitors to the area would understand. I think the A1 is the only exception. Normally, rather than seeing major towns or north, south etc you are given the names of minor towns/villages that only a local would know. It's also very common to have a motorway signed from a roundabout once, but then never again until you're at the motorway. Very annoying!

[Mr Whippy]

RobM77 said:

I must confess I've always had a gripe with signing on main roads. If you turn off a main road then you'll find that very few of them are named in a way that visitors to the area would understand. I think the A1 is the only exception. Normally, rather than seeing major towns or north, south etc you are given the names of minor towns/villages that only a local would know. It's also very common to have a motorway signed from a roundabout once, but then never again until you're at the motorway. Very annoying!

Yep, it's easier up North to be honest, the A1 is a good example, not many 'big' cities, and those there are you know, and are the ones that are posted on signs.

I guess this can change down south where there are more large places and a sense of 'knowing where you are' can be lost easily... expectation of some knowledge is still a must, or a map to reference.

Dave