limit handling courses

[markh1]

I have done a days ride drive course but want to extend on this.

What I would like to learn is how to drive the car fast round corners and to be able to control it if the back end goes.

I was thinking of getting a scooby for some winter fun, but I think investing in my driving skills would be better value long term.

The car I will be doing the course in if it matters is a TVR Cerbera.

Please can someone recommend me some companies that will be able to help me learn these skills.

Regards,

mark

[waremark]

Two strongly recommended names are Don Palmer (http://www.donpalmer.co.uk/) who operates at Bruntingthorpe in the Midlands and Andy Walsh (http://www.carlimits.com/) who is generally at North Weald near Harlow. Both cost a lot for the training, and a lot more for the wear to your tyres, but most people find they get good value out of them.

[markh1]

I see Don palmer does a weekend in anglesea for 1500 quid, it look good but I would rather do it in my car, as I dont see the point of learning in a 4WD Evo then going back into my rear wheel drive-no traction control-no ABS TVR.

[waremark]

There is a good review of the Anglesea 'Masterclass' by Stefan1 here:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Cars used are front and rear drive - no mention of an Evo (when I drove with Don in an Evo, he was saying 'horrid car, it won't do anything except go where you point it'!).

I suspect that this Masterclass is aimed primarily at those who are already pretty competent at both limit handling and track driving - that certainly applies to Stefan1 and the friend he went with. If your first objective is to learn about controlling your own car, I suggest that Don's more regular one day course at Bruntingthorpe (or Andy Walsh's equivalent) sounds more appropriate. In both cases, their one day sessions concentrate on the theory and practise of car dynamics.

[RobM77]

The masterclass looks fantastic. Two points that prevent me doing it though:

• I wouldn't want people behind me watching me drive. Even though I've been racing for years with people watching me, and regularly drive passengers around in my Elise, I've only driven a few times with people behind me, and it puts me off so much any instruction that I'd get would be useless. I should also imagine that neither car is that responsive with four adults on board. Lastly, I'd be sick within two laps in the back of a car on a race track!

• I haven't driven an E90 325i, but does it have a delay on the throttle like every other BMW? Surely that makes it completely worthless as a track car? I've tried a 118i on track and it was impossible to apply anything that I knew about track driving as every input you made was accompanied with a jerk from the DBW. How are they supposed to teach me throttle control if I can't control the throttle? Or is the 325i immune from this trait?

Those are two genuine comments, and I'd be interested in any feedback on them.

[jgsquash]

markh1 said:

... but I would rather do it in my car ...

Then I'd recommend the Car Limits day with Andy Walsh. I did it last week and it was great fun and a good learning experience and not quite such an initial outlay!

There's a brief write up at:
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...

[Holst]

Im also thinking about doing a course like this.

I am a bit worried about tire wear.

I have a set of 17" alloys with eagle F1's on my car (newish tires) but I want these tires to last.

I do have the old alloys from my car that have legal but worn tread, and they dont provide the same grip as the tires on my good wheels.

Could I fit the crappy tires for the handling course (i can take my good ones for the drive home in the boot/bavl seats) or would i still feel a bit lost at the limit on the higher performance tires once i changed them back?

[IRM]

Holst said:

Im also thinking about doing a course like this.

I am a bit worried about tire wear.

I have a set of 17" alloys with eagle F1's on my car (newish tires) but I want these tires to last.

I do have the old alloys from my car that have legal but worn tread, and they dont provide the same grip as the tires on my good wheels.

Could I fit the crappy tires for the handling course (i can take my good ones for the drive home in the boot/bavl seats) or would i still feel a bit lost at the limit on the higher performance tires once i changed them back?

wait until they are about 2/3mm and then go
you'll not feel lost its about principles or principals
when i did mine with uncle don there was a racing driver being taught in a standard road car (i forget the instructors name) and its the same with the anglesey course which is why they use standard road cars

[GreenV8S]

If you just want to get the very basic reactions sorted out in your head, I would look for a skid pan session. Our local council runs the skid pan used by the police, and the police organise sessions members of the public from time to time. This will be in somebody else's rwd car on bald tyres, no grip at all and ideal to get used to twirling the wheel and balancing the car on the throttle.

[waremark]

GreenV8S said:

If you just want to get the very basic reactions sorted out in your head, I would look for a skid pan session. Our local council runs the skid pan used by the police, and the police organise sessions members of the public from time to time. This will be in somebody else's rwd car on bald tyres, no grip at all and ideal to get used to twirling the wheel and balancing the car on the throttle.

But - with (relatively) lots of time to sort everything out, so not nearly so representative of the real world. And most people operating skid pan courses set out to teach a quite a low level - ie basic safety advice for drivers who are not trying to approach the limit of grip. Markh1 would not get what he says he wants from any skid pan session I have heard of short of a police advanced course.

Edited by waremark on Thursday 11th October 00:27

[RobM77]

waremark said:

GreenV8S said:

If you just want to get the very basic reactions sorted out in your head, I would look for a skid pan session. Our local council runs the skid pan used by the police, and the police organise sessions members of the public from time to time. This will be in somebody else's rwd car on bald tyres, no grip at all and ideal to get used to twirling the wheel and balancing the car on the throttle.

But - with (relatively) lots of time to sort everything out, so not nearly so representative of the real world. And most people operating skid pan courses set out to teach a quite a low level - ie basic safety advice for drivers who are not trying to approach the limit of grip. Markh1 would not get what he says he wants from any skid pan session I have heard of short of a police advanced course.

Edited by waremark on Thursday 11th October 00:27

I'd also like to add that the proportions of the factors affecting a slide change with speed (namely weight transfer and power application). Ergo, a skid pan will teach you to control a 10mph slide on slippery ground with nackered tyres. The skills learnt have very little to do with controlling a 45mph slide with grippy tyres on grippy tarmac. Opposite lock is the only common skill between the two, and this is actually instinctive for most people. It's the management of weight transfer and coming off the opposite lock that people get wrong, and these skills aren't prominent or salient in a skid pan situation. On the skid pan, oversteer slides will be 'sloppy' in their reactions, start and stop gently and be corrected in a rear drive car with a lift of the throttle. At a typical 45mph road situation, the slide will actually be made worse be a lift of the throttle, and will finish quite abruptly as the car regains grip.

If we take things further to, say, an 80mph slide on a race track the effects are even more pronounced. If you go to You Tube and type 'nurburgring crash', you'll notice that virtually all the accidents there are caused by over-correction of oversteer. The opposite lock is insinctive, but it's an understanding of weight transfer and the delicacy of finishing the slide that makes the difference at standard average road and track speeds, and that can only really be taught at a higher speed.

I'm not knocking skid pans, as the psychological aspects of being in a car that's sliding around and not panicking can't be underestimated, but they have their place amongst other driver training. This brings me to my last, and most important point, that prevention is better than cure.

[GreenV8S]

waremark said:

But - with (relatively) lots of time to sort everything out, so not nearly so representative of the real world. And most people operating skid pan courses set out to teach a quite a low level - ie basic safety advice for drivers who are not trying to approach the limit of grip. Markh1 would not get what he says he wants from any skid pan session I have heard of short of a police advanced course.

I agree that you need a lot more than that, but you have to start by getting the rear wheel drive mindset established, so that the reactions to oversteer become automatic. THEN you can concentrate on finding where the limits of your own car are, and recognising the symptoms as you approach it, and find how it responds to steering and throttle inputs, and so on. But the first step is to just the basic oversteer corrections into your head and into your muscle memory.

[RobM77]

GreenV8S said:

waremark said:

But - with (relatively) lots of time to sort everything out, so not nearly so representative of the real world. And most people operating skid pan courses set out to teach a quite a low level - ie basic safety advice for drivers who are not trying to approach the limit of grip. Markh1 would not get what he says he wants from any skid pan session I have heard of short of a police advanced course.

I agree that you need a lot more than that, but you have to start by getting the rear wheel drive mindset established, so that the reactions to oversteer become automatic. THEN you can concentrate on finding where the limits of your own car are, and recognising the symptoms as you approach it, and find how it responds to steering and throttle inputs, and so on. But the first step is to just the basic oversteer corrections into your head and into your muscle memory.

True to some extent, but you don't want to make lifting off an automatic reaction to oversteer... works on a skid pan at 10mph - doesn't work on a road at 45mph.