Switzerland and the Nazis, why
Discussion
celticpilgrim said:
That being said Ireland also declared neutrality - let us not forget that many volunteersin Both world wars came from Ireland - bizzarre under the circumstances. My uncle Paddy weas in the RAF captured and tortured by the japs, for what it is worth.
Not in the slightest bit odd - the Irish have a long history of volunteering and fighting for the crown, even if they don't like it. Any sane Irishman must've realised that if Britain was defeated by the nazis, their hard won independence would disappear in a puff of smoke.celticpilgrim said:
As for DeVelera being 'practically a nazi' would you like to quantify that, or failing that, would you like to look at any unbiassed history - it might explain a lot.
By 'unbiased', do you mean one that agrees with your opinion? 
For me there are many of De Valeras actions that marked him out as a nazi sympathiser, not least of which was his sending of a condolence card to Germany upon Hitlers death, but not to America upon Roosevelts. And then there was the hiding of a certain nazi war criminal who lead the civillian killings in Britanny for the Waffen-SS renamed Celestine Laine by De Valera so that when the French govt asked for him by his real name, DV could 'truthfully' say he was not in Ireland. Or De valeras active protection of Andrija Artukovic, believed to have been responsible for the murders of up to 1m people in Croatia. Nice bloke.
Edited by biglepton on Friday 12th October 22:44
Sheets Tabuer said:
That's what I said up there ^^ you ever been to Germany and watched German TV, they have weather reports on then it goes to Austria then Switzerland, they don't see a country they see a race hence why Swiss neutrality was probably a fencing operation
Why on earth do you expect me to read every other post before wading in with my own opinion?
King Herald said:
Mahatma Bag said:
was Switzerland not invaded? I mean, ze Germans invaded most of Europe, so why did they leave little Switzerland alone?
May be something to do with the high passes and poor roads that needed crossing to get there, and there's not a lot there to gain when they do crash their way in. Not until after the war anyway, when most nazis had stashed their ill gotten millions in banks there for the future.CIS121 said:
King Herald said:
Mahatma Bag said:
was Switzerland not invaded? I mean, ze Germans invaded most of Europe, so why did they leave little Switzerland alone?
May be something to do with the high passes and poor roads that needed crossing to get there, and there's not a lot there to gain when they do crash their way in. Not until after the war anyway, when most nazis had stashed their ill gotten millions in banks there for the future.biglepton said:
For me there are many of De Valeras actions that marked him out as a nazi sympathiser, not least of which was his sending of a condolence card to Germany upon Hitlers death, but not to America upon Roosevelts. And then there was the hiding of a certain nazi war criminal who lead the civillian killings in Britanny for the Waffen-SS renamed Celestine Laine by De Valera so that when the French govt asked for him by his real name, DV could 'truthfully' say he was not in Ireland. Or De valeras active protection of Andrija Artukovic, believed to have been responsible for the murders of up to 1m people in Croatia. Nice bloke.
Hang on, what about the RAF aircrews that forced landed in Eire, were handed a suit of civvies and a train ticket to Belfast at a time when the UK desperately needed aircrew (ie Battle of Britain), whereas Luftwaffe aircrew were interned in the Curragh for the duration?Or the overflight permission granted to Allied aircraft to transit Eire territory whilst on patrol of the North Atlantic ie the Erne aircorridor?
biglepton said:
drybeer said:
That being said Ireland also declared neutrality - and was also not invaded...
Do you not think that the fact that Britain was between Ireland and the Germans may have had a tiny bit to do with that? Mind you, De Valera was practically a Nazi anyway, so why invade?There is still a lot of controversy over the probability of U-boats sheltering in Irish ports. There is one well documented case of a U-boat entering irish waters and landing suvivors from a boat they had sunk. German sailors stepped on Irish soil and were allowed to leave.
Ireland was technically neutral but it certainly was much more biased in favour of the Allies rather than the Axis - unlike Spain or Portugal, which were also "Neutral".
Although there are no officla figures, up to 100,000 "Neutral" Irishmen served in the British armed forces during World War 2. There isn't a single example of one Irishman joining the Wermacht or the Luftwaffe. This wasn't from want of trying by the German authorities. Recruiters went around all the POW camps trying to enlist captured Allied combatants to fight on the side of the Germans (in special International regiments). The Germans had little trouble recruiting Ukranians, Poles, French, Norwegians, Dutch, Danes etc etc. They failed miserably to convince any Irishment to join up - despite trying to play the Anti-British card.
It would be pointless and tedious to list all the brave Irishmen who fought and died for Britain - they number in their thousands. Did you know that after England, the country awarded the most VCs is Ireland.
Regarding the original point, Germany disregarded neutrality wheb it suited them to. Belgium, Holland and Denmark had all declared their neutrality on the outbreak of war. Fat lot of good it did them.
Both Germany and Britain had contingency plans to invade Ireland, if the necessity arose. I very much doubt that Ireland would have enjoyed either experience.
Britain had to be carful. With such a large Irish contingent in their armed forces - and an even larger Irish civillian contingent working on major war related contruction programmes in the UK, any invasion of Ireland by Britain could have had a devastatingly negative impaact on Brtitain's ability to continue to fight.
Also, in the period 1939 to 1941, the atitude of the politically important Irish-American population (which was very anti-British and pro keeping the US out of the war) had to be considered before taking any military action against Eire.
Please note that Eire did not formally become the Irish Republic until 1948.
Although there are no officla figures, up to 100,000 "Neutral" Irishmen served in the British armed forces during World War 2. There isn't a single example of one Irishman joining the Wermacht or the Luftwaffe. This wasn't from want of trying by the German authorities. Recruiters went around all the POW camps trying to enlist captured Allied combatants to fight on the side of the Germans (in special International regiments). The Germans had little trouble recruiting Ukranians, Poles, French, Norwegians, Dutch, Danes etc etc. They failed miserably to convince any Irishment to join up - despite trying to play the Anti-British card.
It would be pointless and tedious to list all the brave Irishmen who fought and died for Britain - they number in their thousands. Did you know that after England, the country awarded the most VCs is Ireland.
Regarding the original point, Germany disregarded neutrality wheb it suited them to. Belgium, Holland and Denmark had all declared their neutrality on the outbreak of war. Fat lot of good it did them.
Both Germany and Britain had contingency plans to invade Ireland, if the necessity arose. I very much doubt that Ireland would have enjoyed either experience.
Britain had to be carful. With such a large Irish contingent in their armed forces - and an even larger Irish civillian contingent working on major war related contruction programmes in the UK, any invasion of Ireland by Britain could have had a devastatingly negative impaact on Brtitain's ability to continue to fight.
Also, in the period 1939 to 1941, the atitude of the politically important Irish-American population (which was very anti-British and pro keeping the US out of the war) had to be considered before taking any military action against Eire.
Please note that Eire did not formally become the Irish Republic until 1948.
Eric Mc said:
There isn't a single example of one Irishman joining the Wermacht or the Luftwaffe.
That just leaves the Waffen SS then ! http://www.csn.ul.ie/~dan/war/ssvols.htm
I understand the Irish government sympathised with the Allied cause, but felt unable to join in as it might have led to more civil war in Eire.
This did lead to far more Allied losses, particularly in the Merchant Navy as convoys were denied Irish ports.
biglepton said:
celticpilgrim said:
That being said Ireland also declared neutrality - let us not forget that many volunteersin Both world wars came from Ireland - bizzarre under the circumstances. My uncle Paddy weas in the RAF captured and tortured by the japs, for what it is worth.
Not in the slightest bit odd - the Irish have a long history of volunteering and fighting for the crown, even if they don't like it. Any sane Irishman must've realised that if Britain was defeated by the nazis, their hard won independence would disappear in a puff of smoke.Edited by biglepton on Friday 12th October 22:44
I would still venture that far more Irish were involved in helping the Allied war effort than hindering it. There was a very good programme on Radio 4 a few years ago about the reality of Irish neutrality during WW2 and it was very revealing as to how much surrepticious assistance the Irish government gave to Britain. De Valera was no fool. He had to consider what was best for Ireland but at the same time not reveal to his more radical Republican supporters how much assistance was actually being given to the Allies.
One of the first acts taken by the Irish govrernment was to confiscate for the duration of the war the Short Wave radio set used by the German Embassy to communicate directly to Berlin. For the rest of the war the Germans could only communicate by post and all letters were read by the Irish censor before they could be sent on. It is now known that any oinformation of a military nature was passed to Britian.
No such restrictions were placed on the British or American embassies.
I would strongly advise a trip to the new exhibition at the Collin's Barracks Nation Museum Adjunct in Dublin called "Soldiers and Chiefs". It is a permanent exhibition comemorating the Irish involvement in other people's armies. Of course, the bulk of the exhibition relates to the Irish in the British Army.
Ireland is now much more ready to acknowledge the part played by Irish men and women in the British armed forces. I only heard a few weeks ago that a new organisation has been set up to commeorate the Irish regiments in the British Army.
I also know that there is now a memorial plaque and garden at Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel to Ireland's most successful air ace of World War 2 , Brendan "Paddy" Finucane DSO, DFC who, when killed in action in 1942 (aged 21), had downed over 30 German aircraft.
One of the first acts taken by the Irish govrernment was to confiscate for the duration of the war the Short Wave radio set used by the German Embassy to communicate directly to Berlin. For the rest of the war the Germans could only communicate by post and all letters were read by the Irish censor before they could be sent on. It is now known that any oinformation of a military nature was passed to Britian.
No such restrictions were placed on the British or American embassies.
I would strongly advise a trip to the new exhibition at the Collin's Barracks Nation Museum Adjunct in Dublin called "Soldiers and Chiefs". It is a permanent exhibition comemorating the Irish involvement in other people's armies. Of course, the bulk of the exhibition relates to the Irish in the British Army.
Ireland is now much more ready to acknowledge the part played by Irish men and women in the British armed forces. I only heard a few weeks ago that a new organisation has been set up to commeorate the Irish regiments in the British Army.
I also know that there is now a memorial plaque and garden at Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel to Ireland's most successful air ace of World War 2 , Brendan "Paddy" Finucane DSO, DFC who, when killed in action in 1942 (aged 21), had downed over 30 German aircraft.
CIS121 said:
Ireland certainly didn't act neutrally throughout WW2. The Irish unofficially supplied German U boats off the west coast of Ireland. My great grandfather had a farm near Limerick and was involved in this. My Grandfather was always happy to talk about it when I was a kid. His father did it partly through hatred of the English and partly for the money. He told me that if I'd been through what the English did to them, I'd be supplying anyone at war with them myself. It was pretty disgraceful, but I do believe him that he didn't know half of the story of Nazi Germany and what they were upto.
I'd say that was very unofficial, while this was going on British and American servicemen, in civilian clothes, were flying to and from America out of Shannon, just up the coast.My grandfather was a captain in the Irish army during the war and was called to a beach in Cork where a U-boat crew were sunning themselves, since he neither had the means to seize them nor wanted to start an international incident he asked them to leave, which they did. I'm think some German airmen who crashed in Ireland ended up interned for the duration of the war.
Eric Mc said:
I also know that there is now a memorial plaque and garden at Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel to Ireland's most successful air ace of World War 2 , Brendan "Paddy" Finucane DSO, DFC who, when killed in action in 1942 (aged 21), had downed over 30 German aircraft.
Gotta love the British armed forces..... one of the SAS founding members was also Irish, and surprise surprise known as Paddy (shame I cant remember his real name at the moment) He should apparently been the 5th Irish VC winner in WWII, but this was denied to him, unofficially following an earlier incident where he decked a superior officer. I think he won something like a DSO with 3 bars.... or MC with similar bars, very very brave man.
Seems like on balance the allies got the better end of Irish Neutrality, but back to the OP were there similar stories regarding the Swiss??
Actually, I'd like to add another point about the argument that the lack of Irish ports and airfields contributed to Allied deaths in the SAtlantic.
This is a rather dubious argument - there were ports and airfields available to the Allies in Northern Ireland - particularly Derry (port) and Ballykelly (airfield). These two locations allowed ships and aircraft to operate well out into the Atlantic. Additional ports in Eire (particularly Cobh, County Cork - the old Royal Navy base) or use of Shannon Airport(in County Clare) would have only made a marginal difference to the ability of the Royal Navy and RAF Cosatal Command. In the event, the Battle of the Atlantic was effectively won by late 1942 - mainly through improvements to anti-ship airborne radar systems and more American aircraft (partcularly Catalinas and Liberators) beincoming available to Coastal Command.
Finally, quite a few Irish civilian Merchant Navy ships were sunk during WW2. Most were sunk by German U-Boats - although one was bombed in error by an RAF Coastal Command aircraft which mistook the Irish flag for the Italian flag.
This is a rather dubious argument - there were ports and airfields available to the Allies in Northern Ireland - particularly Derry (port) and Ballykelly (airfield). These two locations allowed ships and aircraft to operate well out into the Atlantic. Additional ports in Eire (particularly Cobh, County Cork - the old Royal Navy base) or use of Shannon Airport(in County Clare) would have only made a marginal difference to the ability of the Royal Navy and RAF Cosatal Command. In the event, the Battle of the Atlantic was effectively won by late 1942 - mainly through improvements to anti-ship airborne radar systems and more American aircraft (partcularly Catalinas and Liberators) beincoming available to Coastal Command.
Finally, quite a few Irish civilian Merchant Navy ships were sunk during WW2. Most were sunk by German U-Boats - although one was bombed in error by an RAF Coastal Command aircraft which mistook the Irish flag for the Italian flag.
Edited by Eric Mc on Saturday 13th October 12:48
slow_poke said:
biglepton said:
For me there are many of De Valeras actions that marked him out as a nazi sympathiser, not least of which was his sending of a condolence card to Germany upon Hitlers death, but not to America upon Roosevelts. And then there was the hiding of a certain nazi war criminal who lead the civillian killings in Britanny for the Waffen-SS renamed Celestine Laine by De Valera so that when the French govt asked for him by his real name, DV could 'truthfully' say he was not in Ireland. Or De valeras active protection of Andrija Artukovic, believed to have been responsible for the murders of up to 1m people in Croatia. Nice bloke.
Hang on, what about the RAF aircrews that forced landed in Eire, were handed a suit of civvies and a train ticket to Belfast at a time when the UK desperately needed aircrew (ie Battle of Britain), whereas Luftwaffe aircrew were interned in the Curragh for the duration?Or the overflight permission granted to Allied aircraft to transit Eire territory whilst on patrol of the North Atlantic ie the Erne aircorridor?
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