trackday/rally/skidpan
Discussion
Hi, im 19 been driving for about a year now and i've been thinking of doing either a track day, rally day or skidpan training..
are there any age limits on any of these?
which one would you recomend? im into motorsports but i've never done anything like this before apart from raggin a car around a field!
im in derby so if anybody can recomend me a place to go near by and do one of these i'd greatly appreaciate it!
thanks very much,
Simon
are there any age limits on any of these?
which one would you recomend? im into motorsports but i've never done anything like this before apart from raggin a car around a field!
im in derby so if anybody can recomend me a place to go near by and do one of these i'd greatly appreaciate it!
thanks very much,
Simon
Age limit most trackdays is 18 or you can get a race licence.
If your in derby you could book in the novice session at donington park. Get an instructor on an early session for £35. It has quite a lot of run off if you cock it up you wont do any harm. It is very slippy in the wet though, and can be quite busy / full of morons. I did my first day on a novice day with motorsportvision at snetterton. Slightly further afield, but msv days always seem to be well marshalled and quiet. On my first one I think there were only 5 cars on track at one time. They also own bedford which most people rave about being the ideal starting point as you can spin off for miles without hitting anything. Looks a bit flat to me, but i'm sure i'll give it a go at some point.
I've never been on a skidpan day, i'd rather learn to control slides at road speeds on a carlimits day than at 10mph in a soggy carpark.
Rallying might be fun, plus you get to use someone elses car!
If your in derby you could book in the novice session at donington park. Get an instructor on an early session for £35. It has quite a lot of run off if you cock it up you wont do any harm. It is very slippy in the wet though, and can be quite busy / full of morons. I did my first day on a novice day with motorsportvision at snetterton. Slightly further afield, but msv days always seem to be well marshalled and quiet. On my first one I think there were only 5 cars on track at one time. They also own bedford which most people rave about being the ideal starting point as you can spin off for miles without hitting anything. Looks a bit flat to me, but i'm sure i'll give it a go at some point.
I've never been on a skidpan day, i'd rather learn to control slides at road speeds on a carlimits day than at 10mph in a soggy carpark.
Rallying might be fun, plus you get to use someone elses car!
cheers mate, thanks for the advice!! im going to look into it further, looked on donnington's website the otherday looks interesting!
looked at a few other places..they all seem to require that your either over 21 or you've had a license for over a year..think all of them have different rules! bit annoying!!
only had my license for just under one year! and im 19! aghh!!
thanks for your help anyways mate!
looked at a few other places..they all seem to require that your either over 21 or you've had a license for over a year..think all of them have different rules! bit annoying!!
only had my license for just under one year! and im 19! aghh!!
thanks for your help anyways mate!
I am a part time instructor at Manby where we incorporate a skid car, on a hydraulic frame, into our rally courses so drivers learn to help control skids and then use skids to help them drive in the "rally" style. The rally courses can be taster or half day or full day according to your budget. Perhaps this is the sort of thing you would like.
No problem with age. We also do a junior rally course for those who are too young to have a licence. This is not the most favorite course to instruct on as we are never too sure what's going to happen next! see www.manbymotorplex.com
No problem with age. We also do a junior rally course for those who are too young to have a licence. This is not the most favorite course to instruct on as we are never too sure what's going to happen next! see www.manbymotorplex.com
I'd say that the skid pan day would probably be most use for your day to day driving, and a lot of fun to boot, but if you want a great day out with little risk I'd say the rally day would be best. Trackdays are fun but you risk your own car if you do have an off, and the costs mount up quickly.
WeirdNeville said:
I'd say that the skid pan day would probably be most use for your day to day driving
I don't agree that a typical skid pan session is of any use for day to day driving. What will most benefit day to day driving is the sort of advanced driving training which will keep you from needing to use limit handling skills. A typical skid pan course gives you something like one hours handling experience at low speeds. This will be interesting and fun, and will give you a sort of intellectual understanding of what goes on beyond the limit of grip. However, it will not give you anything like enough practise to make it likely that you will react suitably after starting to slide on the road, and the experience that you do get (at low speed) will not be sufficiently similar to a loss of grip situation at higher speeds on the road.
If you do go to a skid pan, make sure you are learning how to deal with situations using the same safety equipment which your car is fitted with. At a local skid pan, tuition is given in a cradle car without ABS and without stability control. (I was rather horrified at my son being taught to cadence brake, when it is not likely that he will ever drive a car without ABS - and without the instructor explaining this to him).
If you are interested in pursuing the advanced driving route there are lots of places to find out more - this is one good place:
http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/faq/
You get the best value from IAM/Rospa training, which is given by unpaid volunteers, and which will cost a total of £65 for young people. If you are willing to spend quite a bit of money you will generally get better quality training and probably also more fun from a professional. One I can strongly recommend is Hugh Noblett of Cadence at http://www.cadence.co.uk/.
But this is all responding to WeirdNeville's recommendation. If you want some fun rather than to become a better driver I once had fantastic fun on a one day session here:
http://www.silverstonerally.co.uk/
Edited by waremark on Friday 19th October 23:07
waremark said:
I don't agree that a typical skid pan session is of any use for day to day driving. What will most benefit day to day driving is the sort of advanced driving training which will keep you from needing to use limit handling skills.
Unfortunatly, loss of control does happen. Ice, diesel, brain fade. And our current driving instruction gives you no training in loss-of-control situations. So some idea of what to do, and what not to do, is probably better than none. Hopefully, this won't be day-to-day, but it maybe sometime.waremark said:
However, it will not give you anything like enough practise to make it likely that you will react suitably after starting to slide on the road, and the experience that you do get (at low speed) will not be sufficiently similar to a loss of grip situation at higher speeds on the road.
It's surprising how quickly you can get the hang of it - and the public road is not the best place to have your first go. I'd like to see a skidpan (or muddy field!) session to be part of learning to drive.I agree that a high speed skid would be very different; I'm hoping never to find out. Quite a difficult thing to practise in advance.
waremark said:
(I was rather horrified at my son being taught to cadence brake, when it is not likely that he will ever drive a car without ABS - and without the instructor explaining this to him).
Why? Cadence braking, done properly and practised from time to time on a clear road, will pull a car up more quickly than the ABS. I've proved this to disbelieving instructors in several different cars in both wet and dry conditions under controlled (ie pan or track) and measured circumstances.As for never driving an car without ABS.... wouldn't you like him to know what to do if (or when? It's an extra complication that cuts out with the slightest sign of a problem rather than compromise the standard brakes) the ABS did fail?
Personally, I have done many limit handling sessions, but I'd still rather avoid limit handling situations on the road - and I cannot remember encountering one in the last 20 years of driving. I am very dubious that a single skid pan session will make anyone safer on the road. Others - though not all - agree as shown in the recent thread: 'Controlling a Slide in a RWD Car'.
BTW I am amazed at defblades ability to out cadence modern ABS systems - I accept that the most skillful threshold braking can stop you shorter than ABS, but cadence in an ABS equipped car? I believe that what most people need to learn about emergency braking is to push harder on the pedal (oh, and of course they need to learn how braking distances increase with speed too). Manufacturers say that many motorists do not press hard enough to activate the ABS in an emergency situation, which is why better cars incorporate Emergency Brake Assist. I find this with my IAM Associates - I ask them to brake as hard as possible, and generally they do not press hard enough to stop in the shortest distance. By all means teach cadence braking at an expert level, but first make sure drivers understand that the basic action in an emergency in any modern car is simply to press the brake pedal as hard as possible.
A couple of extracts from the thread: 'Controlling a Slide in a RWD Car':
"Ice - well it's pretty obvious when that's going to be around and to quote some guy at a skidpan I visited in the midlands several years ago - "you can always tell a skidpan instructor in the ice/snow as they'll be the slowest drivers around". Point being despite the skills of controlling a slide they chose not to get into difficulty in the first place. Diesel - well tell tale signs are there but it's something I do worry about considerably more when on my motorbike."
and an agreement with that poster:
""The general approach from the advanced driving fraternity is not to get yourself in a situation where you're in a slide in the first place. It's not difficult to drive so you don't skid.""
I'm with Phil...done the Millbrook bit with John Lyon...done the Essex Police skid pan...done the driving in Scotland for 30 years bit...
Now telling my Associates, forget skid pan training for a half hour...Sweden and Canada reckon it is of negative value...Police drivers might do a WEEK on the pan and still lose it when the sh1t hits the fan.
LOOK for diesel on the roads - especially near fuel stations - LOOK at changes in the road surface - LOOK for rubber marks on the road...THINK, if you have 2 sweaters and an anorak on...the roads might be slippy?"
BTW I am amazed at defblades ability to out cadence modern ABS systems - I accept that the most skillful threshold braking can stop you shorter than ABS, but cadence in an ABS equipped car? I believe that what most people need to learn about emergency braking is to push harder on the pedal (oh, and of course they need to learn how braking distances increase with speed too). Manufacturers say that many motorists do not press hard enough to activate the ABS in an emergency situation, which is why better cars incorporate Emergency Brake Assist. I find this with my IAM Associates - I ask them to brake as hard as possible, and generally they do not press hard enough to stop in the shortest distance. By all means teach cadence braking at an expert level, but first make sure drivers understand that the basic action in an emergency in any modern car is simply to press the brake pedal as hard as possible.
A couple of extracts from the thread: 'Controlling a Slide in a RWD Car':
"Ice - well it's pretty obvious when that's going to be around and to quote some guy at a skidpan I visited in the midlands several years ago - "you can always tell a skidpan instructor in the ice/snow as they'll be the slowest drivers around". Point being despite the skills of controlling a slide they chose not to get into difficulty in the first place. Diesel - well tell tale signs are there but it's something I do worry about considerably more when on my motorbike."
and an agreement with that poster:
""The general approach from the advanced driving fraternity is not to get yourself in a situation where you're in a slide in the first place. It's not difficult to drive so you don't skid.""
I'm with Phil...done the Millbrook bit with John Lyon...done the Essex Police skid pan...done the driving in Scotland for 30 years bit...
Now telling my Associates, forget skid pan training for a half hour...Sweden and Canada reckon it is of negative value...Police drivers might do a WEEK on the pan and still lose it when the sh1t hits the fan.
LOOK for diesel on the roads - especially near fuel stations - LOOK at changes in the road surface - LOOK for rubber marks on the road...THINK, if you have 2 sweaters and an anorak on...the roads might be slippy?"
waremark said:
BTW I am amazed at defblades ability to out cadence modern ABS systems - I accept that the most skillful threshold braking can stop you shorter than ABS, but cadence in an ABS equipped car?
I wouldn't describe myself as "the most skillful threshold braking" person by any stretch but the results are consistant. The instructors I've been sat next to tend to be "disgruntled" rather than "amazed" 
Why not find a quiet bit of road and try it yourself? Braking from 30mph is enough to show a difference.As far as I can tell, ABS is massively over rated and only really useful for the totally untrained. Also, rather than not press hard enough, I heard that when the ABS kicks in people feel the pedal vibrate and hear the noise and think something's gone wrong, and let up on the pedal.
cheers for all this helfull info guys!
well my '98 peugeot 306 hasnt got ABS..
found out bout 2hrs ago had first high speed skid on the M42 - some dozy chav in a rover metro 100 pulls from the slow lane into the middle lane doing less tha 60mph..not looking in her mirrors theres a car right behind her and im behind him in the middle lane..
pulled into fast lane when some one else pulls into the middle lane sharpish! braked to avoid clipping the back of him..both front wheels locked up! mmm burning rubber! first taste of a skid like that!
anyways back to the topic! so are most people are saying skid pan days are rubbish??
dont really want to blow cash on something that i could learn on a muddy field!
cheers guys!
well my '98 peugeot 306 hasnt got ABS..
found out bout 2hrs ago had first high speed skid on the M42 - some dozy chav in a rover metro 100 pulls from the slow lane into the middle lane doing less tha 60mph..not looking in her mirrors theres a car right behind her and im behind him in the middle lane..
pulled into fast lane when some one else pulls into the middle lane sharpish! braked to avoid clipping the back of him..both front wheels locked up! mmm burning rubber! first taste of a skid like that!
anyways back to the topic! so are most people are saying skid pan days are rubbish??
dont really want to blow cash on something that i could learn on a muddy field!
cheers guys!
My reply was based on the question by the OP - he said he wanted to do a days activity and of the three suggested I thought that the Skid pan would have most real-world benefit.
I'm not suggesting that any of those activities would be the best possible thing for his every day driving, merely that of the choices he gave it might be the most suitable. But for sheer fun.... RALLY!!!!
Yes, and IAM style course would be the most cost effective way of raising your driving a level or two. But it won't take a day, and if you're doing it right you won't be getting sideways....
I'm not suggesting that any of those activities would be the best possible thing for his every day driving, merely that of the choices he gave it might be the most suitable. But for sheer fun.... RALLY!!!!
Yes, and IAM style course would be the most cost effective way of raising your driving a level or two. But it won't take a day, and if you're doing it right you won't be getting sideways....
WeirdNeville said:
My reply was based on the question by the OP - he said he wanted to do a days activity and of the three suggested I thought that the Skid pan would have most real-world benefit.
I'm not suggesting that any of those activities would be the best possible thing for his every day driving, merely that of the choices he gave it might be the most suitable. But for sheer fun.... RALLY!!!!
Yes, and IAM style course would be the most cost effective way of raising your driving a level or two. But it won't take a day, and if you're doing it right you won't be getting sideways....
sorry mate - didnt mean to start arguement on here..I'm not suggesting that any of those activities would be the best possible thing for his every day driving, merely that of the choices he gave it might be the most suitable. But for sheer fun.... RALLY!!!!
Yes, and IAM style course would be the most cost effective way of raising your driving a level or two. But it won't take a day, and if you're doing it right you won't be getting sideways....
i just seem to have come to the conclusion to probably get some better driving exeperience and then go and do something that will get the blood running! cheers for the helpful info though mate, appreaciate it from all of you!
thanks again guys!
rhys27 said:
sorry mate - didnt mean to start arguement on here..
i just seem to have come to the conclusion to probably get some better driving exeperience and then go and do something that will get the blood running! cheers for the helpful info though mate, appreaciate it from all of you!
thanks again guys!
Mate, if you'd posted stating that you thought black cars are harder to see at night than white cars on this forum you would have started an argument!i just seem to have come to the conclusion to probably get some better driving exeperience and then go and do something that will get the blood running! cheers for the helpful info though mate, appreaciate it from all of you!
thanks again guys!
Just get out there and drive - forum time does not improve your driving!
My personal opinion is try to do all 3, starting with the skid pan. I've done a couple of skid control courses, a rally day and a great deal of 2 stroke karting. All of which has helped to (hopefully) improve my driving skills, both road and track. But to be honest, the most useful, and cheapest was IAM training.
Skid pan is relatively inexpensive, and despite what others have said, it will, at least, make you think differently in low grip conditions; the basic course I took did not cover slides over about 30mph. The advanced course (at Devon Drivers Centre) moved onto the "road" course and allowed for higher speeds. I think I managed about 60mph at one point which with such low grip was great fun, just as much as the rally day and more beneficial to road driving, especially as it was conducted in a front wheel drive car.
As for the "not experiencing high speed skid" brigade, I'm surprised. I lost control at the inexperienced age of 19 in my old Rover 200; 70+, long tightening bend, catching the car in front and... lift off oversteer! That was an eye opener and largely luck that I managed to hang on to it. Had I been on a skid control course before this I may have been able to deal with the situation a little better; but as has already been said, a day's driving instruction does not a rally driver make!
IAM training would have improved my observation.
Skid Pan would have improved my skid control.
Track day would allow me to see the limits of the car.
Experience would have told me I was being an idiot.
Skid pan is relatively inexpensive, and despite what others have said, it will, at least, make you think differently in low grip conditions; the basic course I took did not cover slides over about 30mph. The advanced course (at Devon Drivers Centre) moved onto the "road" course and allowed for higher speeds. I think I managed about 60mph at one point which with such low grip was great fun, just as much as the rally day and more beneficial to road driving, especially as it was conducted in a front wheel drive car.
As for the "not experiencing high speed skid" brigade, I'm surprised. I lost control at the inexperienced age of 19 in my old Rover 200; 70+, long tightening bend, catching the car in front and... lift off oversteer! That was an eye opener and largely luck that I managed to hang on to it. Had I been on a skid control course before this I may have been able to deal with the situation a little better; but as has already been said, a day's driving instruction does not a rally driver make!
IAM training would have improved my observation.
Skid Pan would have improved my skid control.
Track day would allow me to see the limits of the car.
Experience would have told me I was being an idiot.
Hi good to see you thinking about this. In my view people who are interested make much better drivers than those who nervously drift about our road networks like a scud missile leaving a trail of devastation behind them.
Anyway, skid pan doesn't replicate real life - you may as well enjoy a merry-go-round ride at the fair.
I'd rate ROSPA very highly and it isn't just as the name suggests about preventing accidents... you have to drive rapidly (within the speedlimits)otherwise you fail. Plus you are re-examined every three years. Sadly I see too many IAM's who obtained their proudly displayed IAM radiator badge 60 years ago and there is no requirement for them to be re-tested.
Lastly defblade is spot on... ABS helps you to keep steering (which is only occasionally useful if you think about) but when you just want to stop (majority of situations) I'm afraid it doesn't matter how hard you press on the peddle it just won't pull up as quick as the same car without ABS.
As for where to get some off road practice I'm not sure up your way but as someone else suggested there is a good place near bedford (name escapes me) that do half or full days and they give full instruction with maximum of 4 cars on track but the cost is about £350. Mind you, you should get the hang of controlling 70mph slides by the end of it. Oh and if possible it's best in a vehicle without any of the 'aids'
Good luck and keep us all posted.
Anyway, skid pan doesn't replicate real life - you may as well enjoy a merry-go-round ride at the fair.
I'd rate ROSPA very highly and it isn't just as the name suggests about preventing accidents... you have to drive rapidly (within the speedlimits)otherwise you fail. Plus you are re-examined every three years. Sadly I see too many IAM's who obtained their proudly displayed IAM radiator badge 60 years ago and there is no requirement for them to be re-tested.
Lastly defblade is spot on... ABS helps you to keep steering (which is only occasionally useful if you think about) but when you just want to stop (majority of situations) I'm afraid it doesn't matter how hard you press on the peddle it just won't pull up as quick as the same car without ABS.
As for where to get some off road practice I'm not sure up your way but as someone else suggested there is a good place near bedford (name escapes me) that do half or full days and they give full instruction with maximum of 4 cars on track but the cost is about £350. Mind you, you should get the hang of controlling 70mph slides by the end of it. Oh and if possible it's best in a vehicle without any of the 'aids'
Good luck and keep us all posted.
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