Road driving,Track driving, Competition driving.
Discussion
Are different disciplines.
Which is why the road drivers here suggest the "Advanced" route before any track based " On limit" courses.
Road based advanced driving means one should never need to have to deal with the on limit behaviour of one's vehicle.
That applies irrespective of your personal speed limits.
Mindset, that's the major factor.
Views and discussion?
Off on hols for a week, so I'll see replies later, if anyone's interested.
Which is why the road drivers here suggest the "Advanced" route before any track based " On limit" courses.
Road based advanced driving means one should never need to have to deal with the on limit behaviour of one's vehicle.
That applies irrespective of your personal speed limits.
Mindset, that's the major factor.
Views and discussion?
Off on hols for a week, so I'll see replies later, if anyone's interested.
WhoseGeneration said:
Are different disciplines.
Yes.WhoseGeneration said:
Which is why the road drivers here suggest the "Advanced" route before any track based " On limit" courses.
Correct.There is always a "but"...
Yes, learn about defensive driving first. But also ensure collision avoidance driving is covered, which is very difficult to teach on public roads.
WhoseGeneration said:
Road based advanced driving means one should never need to have to deal with the on limit behaviour of one's vehicle.
All humans err, even advanced police drivers. A driver will need to be able to handle his/her vehicle on-limit in emergency situations, if a situation gets past their defensive driving and becomes an emergency.WhoseGeneration said:
Mindset, that's the major factor.
Safety is a major - even the most important - factor in all disciplines of racing or road driving.To finish first, you must first finish. If you do not race safely within personal and physical limits and the rules of the sport, then you won't win. Same applies to road driving: if you do not drive safely within personal, physical, and legal limits, you will become a dangerous driver and face the penalties, or else crash and face even worse penalties.
The differences in safety-related mindset between the two disciplines are subtle, but fundamentally identical.
Edited by Jungles on Sunday 21st October 11:37
Jungles said:
The mindset differences between the two disciplines are subtle, but fundamentally identical.
I don't agree with that.If you're not trying to get ahead of others, pushing yourself & trying to stop others getting past you, you're not racing. There is no need for anything like that mind set on road & the difference is not subtle IMHO.
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 21st October 10:16
vonhosen said:
Jungles said:
The mindset differences between the two disciplines are subtle, but fundamentally identical.
I don't agree with that.If you're not trying to get ahead of others, pushing yourself & trying to stop others getting past you, you're not racing. There is no need for anything like that mind set on road & the difference is not subtle IMHO.
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 21st October 10:16
Trying to draw too much of a parallel between road driving and track driving seems unwise to me. I'm not saying there is no overlap, but there's not enough to be really helpful, IMHO. I think it's best to treat them quite separately.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
vonhosen said:
Jungles said:
The mindset differences between the two disciplines are subtle, but fundamentally identical.
I don't agree with that.If you're not trying to get ahead of others, pushing yourself & trying to stop others getting past you, you're not racing. There is no need for anything like that mind set on road & the difference is not subtle IMHO.
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 21st October 10:16
I can drive quickly, defend a position, or exploit an overtaking opportunity, without putting myself or another driver in unreasonable danger.
Example:
If someone tries to out-brake me side-by-side on the inside approach to a turn, I'm NOT going to stay on the classic line and force him off the track or into a wall. Instead I will drive on a wider line, giving margin for safety between my car and his, and attempt to thwart the overtake by denying him the outer width of the track during exit. Thus, I will drive within the limits of my vehicle, my ability, and the present circumstance, while intelligently defending my position.
The subtlety is in balancing the emotional desire for vigorous competition and the practical needs of safety. A lot of spectators like to watch argy-bargy racing, but from a racer's point of view, racing should be about driving skill and tactical competence, not brute thuggery.
Obviously racing on the road is unacceptable behaviour. But I'm talking about driving mindset, especially with view to safety, as separate from competition mindset which can occur in activities other than driving.
Edited by Jungles on Sunday 21st October 11:50
vonhosen said:
When I watch BTCC I see a lot of argy bargy, not a lot of worrying about if the one outside you is forced off road.
There is plenty of worry if YOU are the one forced off the track or into a wall! Even if you come out on top, you're probably slower than before, suffered damage, or lost positions.I don't watch BTCC, since I don't live in the UK. However I've heard BTCC's reputation for quality driving isn't exemplary.
Having said that, touring car racing carries much less risk when contact is made, than in open-wheel racing, so some sloppiness can be forgiven.Any driver who deliberately makes contact with another is one or more of:
- Stupid
- Inexperienced
- No background in karting or open-wheel racing
- Experienced a fit of emotional instability
Edited by Jungles on Sunday 21st October 15:11
Jungles said:
vonhosen said:
When I watch BTCC I see a lot of argy bargy, not a lot of worrying about if the one outside you is forced off road.
There is plenty of worry if YOU are the one forced off the track or into a wall! Even if you come out on top, you're probably slower than before, suffered damage, or lost positions.I don't watch BTCC, since I don't live in the UK. However I've heard BTCC's reputation for quality driving isn't exemplary.
Having said that, touring car racing carries much less risk when contact is made, than in open-wheel racing, so some sloppiness can be forgiven.Any driver who deliberately makes contact with another is one or more of:
- Stupid
- Inexperienced
- No background in karting or open-wheel racing
- Experienced a fit of emotional instability
Edited by Jungles on Sunday 21st October 15:11
WhoseGeneration said:
Road based advanced driving means one should never need to have to deal with the on limit behaviour of one's vehicle.
I'd expect an advanced driver to aim to stay a suitable margin inside their own safe performance 'envelope' at all times, but there is an unavoidable risk that circumstances will push you closer to the limit than you expect and sometimes over it. Hence, it is still important to know where your limits are in order to maintain a safe margin within them, and you should be capable of staying in control at the limit. In that respect I think that limit handling skills are relevant to normal driving on public roads.WhoseGeneration said:
Road based advanced driving means one should never need to have to deal with the on limit behaviour of one's vehicle.
The superb driver is one who uses his superb judgement to avoid situations in which he must use his superb skills. You can anticipate all you like, but the unexpected will happen. vonhosen said:
Jungles said:
vonhosen said:
When I watch BTCC I see a lot of argy bargy, not a lot of worrying about if the one outside you is forced off road.
There is plenty of worry if YOU are the one forced off the track or into a wall! Even if you come out on top, you're probably slower than before, suffered damage, or lost positions.I don't watch BTCC, since I don't live in the UK. However I've heard BTCC's reputation for quality driving isn't exemplary.
Having said that, touring car racing carries much less risk when contact is made, than in open-wheel racing, so some sloppiness can be forgiven.Any driver who deliberately makes contact with another is one or more of:
- Stupid
- Inexperienced
- No background in karting or open-wheel racing
- Experienced a fit of emotional instability
Edited by Jungles on Sunday 21st October 15:11
Doing all three types of driving I've learned a lot of things relevant to road driving from both track and competition driving. Road driving is, IMHO, largely about observation and anticipation. I drive on the road assuming that all other motorists haven't seen me and I take nothing for granted.
Track driving - apart from the pace difference - is like a qualifying lap in that you can focus on the ideal line. The ideal line varies from car to car, the main things to manage are weight transfer of the car and exit speed. Smooth is fast. Once you've learned about lines, you can practice them on the road (even in the relatively narrow space between the kerb and the white lines, there's no need to go fast in absolute terms but the smoothness maintains momentum and is easier on the car. Continuing to develop cornering techniques (with reference to the lines taken) on the road is beneficial the next time you return to the track. If people approach track driving with the proper mind set, I think it can be hugely beneficial to becoming a better road driver.
Competition driving and race craft are a whole different ball game. Overtaking in corners is allowed (not so on track days) and will often be done "off line" because the car in front has first dibs on the corner. Setting up the guy in front to force him in on the wrong line in order for you to get the faster line is something you can only learn in races - lowly put-put karting is a good place to sharpen up your guile. There's also the matter of when you're the guy in front under attack from a competitor behind - you want the best line but it leaves the door open on the inside. Off-line driving at the car's limits can provoke "moments" that will test your car control (situations not to be invited in road or track driving). However, if you've raced and sharpened reactions to "moments" then that's a benefit in emergencies on the road if the car gets out of shape.
I can't remember the last time I had a "moment" on the road and even if I did (although I can't think how I'd put myself in such a situation) I've developed the reactions to deal with it.
I like RT106's post - that about sums it up.
As for contact in competition, rubbin's racin'!
Track driving - apart from the pace difference - is like a qualifying lap in that you can focus on the ideal line. The ideal line varies from car to car, the main things to manage are weight transfer of the car and exit speed. Smooth is fast. Once you've learned about lines, you can practice them on the road (even in the relatively narrow space between the kerb and the white lines, there's no need to go fast in absolute terms but the smoothness maintains momentum and is easier on the car. Continuing to develop cornering techniques (with reference to the lines taken) on the road is beneficial the next time you return to the track. If people approach track driving with the proper mind set, I think it can be hugely beneficial to becoming a better road driver.
Competition driving and race craft are a whole different ball game. Overtaking in corners is allowed (not so on track days) and will often be done "off line" because the car in front has first dibs on the corner. Setting up the guy in front to force him in on the wrong line in order for you to get the faster line is something you can only learn in races - lowly put-put karting is a good place to sharpen up your guile. There's also the matter of when you're the guy in front under attack from a competitor behind - you want the best line but it leaves the door open on the inside. Off-line driving at the car's limits can provoke "moments" that will test your car control (situations not to be invited in road or track driving). However, if you've raced and sharpened reactions to "moments" then that's a benefit in emergencies on the road if the car gets out of shape.
I can't remember the last time I had a "moment" on the road and even if I did (although I can't think how I'd put myself in such a situation) I've developed the reactions to deal with it.
I like RT106's post - that about sums it up.
As for contact in competition, rubbin's racin'!
Jungles said:
vonhosen said:
Jungles said:
vonhosen said:
When I watch BTCC I see a lot of argy bargy, not a lot of worrying about if the one outside you is forced off road.
There is plenty of worry if YOU are the one forced off the track or into a wall! Even if you come out on top, you're probably slower than before, suffered damage, or lost positions.I don't watch BTCC, since I don't live in the UK. However I've heard BTCC's reputation for quality driving isn't exemplary.
Having said that, touring car racing carries much less risk when contact is made, than in open-wheel racing, so some sloppiness can be forgiven.Any driver who deliberately makes contact with another is one or more of:
- Stupid
- Inexperienced
- No background in karting or open-wheel racing
- Experienced a fit of emotional instability
Edited by Jungles on Sunday 21st October 15:11
& not a cold calculated I'll win the title here with this move moment ?
Edited by vonhosen on Monday 22 October 06:56
I agree completely with the above. The mindset of track driving is totally different from road driving. Track driving (and I mean racing here, not just zooming round on track days with no encouragement to push the limits and no ability to overtake in corners), requires an ability to keep the front and the rear of the car slipping by equal amounts by the application of gentle and well understood control inputs. It also requires excellent peripheral vision and multi-tasking ability (you have to concentrate on driving on the limit as well as defending from behind and attacking in front - all at once). Road driving slides the emphasis much further towards what's happening outside the car, and requires awareness of much more diverse aspects than just the guy behind and the guy in front.
However, there are skills between the two that overlap, namely car control. There is a common misconception that learning to control a car on the limit won't help you drive under the limit on the road, but I couldn't disagree more. Understanding where the limit is, what affects the car when it's there, and the skills needed to balance the car can help safety enormously when driving much slower at road speeds. Generally speaking, the experienced track drivers that I've driven with at road speeds have the car better balanced and more smoothly controlled than drivers who only drive on the road. Should an emergency situation occur, or the car comes across a low grip surface, an experienced track driver will normally be much further from the limit at a given speed than a road driver, especially if that road driver is following textbook IAM advice. Being as far from the limit as possible at any given speed is actually what competitive track driving is all about - the idea being that you can increase the speed at which the car reaches the limit through measured control input and balance.
However, there are skills between the two that overlap, namely car control. There is a common misconception that learning to control a car on the limit won't help you drive under the limit on the road, but I couldn't disagree more. Understanding where the limit is, what affects the car when it's there, and the skills needed to balance the car can help safety enormously when driving much slower at road speeds. Generally speaking, the experienced track drivers that I've driven with at road speeds have the car better balanced and more smoothly controlled than drivers who only drive on the road. Should an emergency situation occur, or the car comes across a low grip surface, an experienced track driver will normally be much further from the limit at a given speed than a road driver, especially if that road driver is following textbook IAM advice. Being as far from the limit as possible at any given speed is actually what competitive track driving is all about - the idea being that you can increase the speed at which the car reaches the limit through measured control input and balance.
When I first learned to drive competitively on rallies the cars were basic and not too fast. But now, take this example of a recent track day I attended at Cadwell Park; I watched as two drivers, who had come together, one driving a Porsche turbo and the other a 55AMG Merc tried to crash on every corner. The Porsche driver soon managed to spin and contacted the tyre wall with the rear. I watched as the Merc driver tried to crash at Hall Bends by coming into the corner at least 20mph too fast. He suddenly braked hard in the middle of the corner and fortunately, and only by keeping the front wheels pretty much pointing down the track, the wizard electronics managed to avoid him losing control and hitting anything. As I understand it they were invited to leave the venue shortly after.
Two weeks before I had attended a day at prodrive driving the latest subarus. And we used the latest stability control electronis wizardry on the skid pan, the car as best it could, didn't allow the driver to make all the usual car control mistakes, and of course kept the car going round the corner. Yaw sensor, individual wheel braking, ABS, throttle management, all working overtime.
The moral of the story is that at the point of losing control the latest cars with the wizard electronics of ABS, EBD, Electronic stability systems etc are taking away the need for the "fast car" driver to understand the finer points of raw limit handling. And a few years ago wasn't it only the enthusiastic driver who bought the fastest cars, but realising the risks involved, looked to top up his driving skills as had his "moments".
As a Caterham driver, with its most sophisticated electronics designed to make sure the indicators flash at the correct rate, and a skid control instructor, it concerns me that whilst these types of electronic aids are designed to keep us safe, they are not allowing drivers to take responsibility for any of the handling mistakes that we are all supposed to be learning from!
Am I going to be out of a job?
And is this "cocoon the driver in safety but give him lots more horsepower" mentality a serious problem, particularly when it is so easy for the better off to buy the super car, enter the track day, and just forget about "pure" limit handling skills and think it was their skill that let them "get away with it"
Two weeks before I had attended a day at prodrive driving the latest subarus. And we used the latest stability control electronis wizardry on the skid pan, the car as best it could, didn't allow the driver to make all the usual car control mistakes, and of course kept the car going round the corner. Yaw sensor, individual wheel braking, ABS, throttle management, all working overtime.
The moral of the story is that at the point of losing control the latest cars with the wizard electronics of ABS, EBD, Electronic stability systems etc are taking away the need for the "fast car" driver to understand the finer points of raw limit handling. And a few years ago wasn't it only the enthusiastic driver who bought the fastest cars, but realising the risks involved, looked to top up his driving skills as had his "moments".
As a Caterham driver, with its most sophisticated electronics designed to make sure the indicators flash at the correct rate, and a skid control instructor, it concerns me that whilst these types of electronic aids are designed to keep us safe, they are not allowing drivers to take responsibility for any of the handling mistakes that we are all supposed to be learning from!
Am I going to be out of a job?
And is this "cocoon the driver in safety but give him lots more horsepower" mentality a serious problem, particularly when it is so easy for the better off to buy the super car, enter the track day, and just forget about "pure" limit handling skills and think it was their skill that let them "get away with it"
norasport said:
When I first learned to drive competitively on rallies the cars were basic and not too fast. But now, take this example of a recent track day I attended at Cadwell Park; I watched as two drivers, who had come together, one driving a Porsche turbo and the other a 55AMG Merc tried to crash on every corner. The Porsche driver soon managed to spin and contacted the tyre wall with the rear. I watched as the Merc driver tried to crash at Hall Bends by coming into the corner at least 20mph too fast. He suddenly braked hard in the middle of the corner and fortunately, and only by keeping the front wheels pretty much pointing down the track, the wizard electronics managed to avoid him losing control and hitting anything. As I understand it they were invited to leave the venue shortly after.
Two weeks before I had attended a day at prodrive driving the latest subarus. And we used the latest stability control electronis wizardry on the skid pan, the car as best it could, didn't allow the driver to make all the usual car control mistakes, and of course kept the car going round the corner. Yaw sensor, individual wheel braking, ABS, throttle management, all working overtime.
The moral of the story is that at the point of losing control the latest cars with the wizard electronics of ABS, EBD, Electronic stability systems etc are taking away the need for the "fast car" driver to understand the finer points of raw limit handling. And a few years ago wasn't it only the enthusiastic driver who bought the fastest cars, but realising the risks involved, looked to top up his driving skills as had his "moments".
As a Caterham driver, with its most sophisticated electronics designed to make sure the indicators flash at the correct rate, and a skid control instructor, it concerns me that whilst these types of electronic aids are designed to keep us safe, they are not allowing drivers to take responsibility for any of the handling mistakes that we are all supposed to be learning from!
Am I going to be out of a job?
And is this "cocoon the driver in safety but give him lots more horsepower" mentality a serious problem, particularly when it is so easy for the better off to buy the super car, enter the track day, and just forget about "pure" limit handling skills and think it was their skill that let them "get away with it"
Two weeks before I had attended a day at prodrive driving the latest subarus. And we used the latest stability control electronis wizardry on the skid pan, the car as best it could, didn't allow the driver to make all the usual car control mistakes, and of course kept the car going round the corner. Yaw sensor, individual wheel braking, ABS, throttle management, all working overtime.
The moral of the story is that at the point of losing control the latest cars with the wizard electronics of ABS, EBD, Electronic stability systems etc are taking away the need for the "fast car" driver to understand the finer points of raw limit handling. And a few years ago wasn't it only the enthusiastic driver who bought the fastest cars, but realising the risks involved, looked to top up his driving skills as had his "moments".
As a Caterham driver, with its most sophisticated electronics designed to make sure the indicators flash at the correct rate, and a skid control instructor, it concerns me that whilst these types of electronic aids are designed to keep us safe, they are not allowing drivers to take responsibility for any of the handling mistakes that we are all supposed to be learning from!
Am I going to be out of a job?
And is this "cocoon the driver in safety but give him lots more horsepower" mentality a serious problem, particularly when it is so easy for the better off to buy the super car, enter the track day, and just forget about "pure" limit handling skills and think it was their skill that let them "get away with it"
The truth is of course that these electronic aids work wonders, but don't change the laws of physics. A decent driver is still going to be safer than a numpty in such a car.Thanks for the replies.
So, to sum up?
We are not collectively sure?
Come on, admit it, despite VH, there is an ickle bit of competition on the Road.
I do it and have done for decades although as I age I will admit to being less ready to take the bait.
My wife does still complain though when I do.
A bit more on Trackdays and, if you want to win, whatever it takes and you think you can get away with in Competition.
So, to sum up?
We are not collectively sure?
Come on, admit it, despite VH, there is an ickle bit of competition on the Road.
I do it and have done for decades although as I age I will admit to being less ready to take the bait.
My wife does still complain though when I do.
A bit more on Trackdays and, if you want to win, whatever it takes and you think you can get away with in Competition.
I did my first true competitive event about a month ago now and the main thing I came away with from the experience was that any "competitive" element of track driving or road driving looks embarrassingly pathetic now compared to what you feel when racing.
The first time someone charges up your inside just as you're setting yourself up for the corner and takes your space - nothing like that feeling anywhere else when driving in my opinion. Drivers trying to enforce their ways on me on the way home after the weekend, just made me laugh. I just thought little did you know I'd been inches off other cars at 110mph looking to get up the inside of them on an 80mph corner only hours before.
The first time someone charges up your inside just as you're setting yourself up for the corner and takes your space - nothing like that feeling anywhere else when driving in my opinion. Drivers trying to enforce their ways on me on the way home after the weekend, just made me laugh. I just thought little did you know I'd been inches off other cars at 110mph looking to get up the inside of them on an 80mph corner only hours before.
WhoseGeneration said:
Thanks for the replies.
So, to sum up?
We are not collectively sure?
Come on, admit it, despite VH, there is an ickle bit of competition on the Road.
I do it and have done for decades although as I age I will admit to being less ready to take the bait.
My wife does still complain though when I do.
A bit more on Trackdays and, if you want to win, whatever it takes and you think you can get away with in Competition.
I was in conversation with police driving instructor (who also competed in motor sport) who said an interesting thing. When most of us are driving on the road, even if we readily admit and hold on to the concept of not being in competition, we have a concept of getting there and timely progress. I know I do. I'd rather be in the lane that moves off well from the lights, rather be in the faster moving lane in motorway traffic, rather be in front of the slower driver in an NSL, rather get through the lights than be stopped by them as they turn red.So, to sum up?
We are not collectively sure?
Come on, admit it, despite VH, there is an ickle bit of competition on the Road.
I do it and have done for decades although as I age I will admit to being less ready to take the bait.
My wife does still complain though when I do.
A bit more on Trackdays and, if you want to win, whatever it takes and you think you can get away with in Competition.
He summed this up as "the desire and drive to make progress". Yep I have that. He said that in his (domestic, not job related) driving plan, he had deliberately de-prioritised "making progress". He did this by planning for longer journeys, leaving earlier, allowing more contingency, aiming for a lower average speed.
So whether it's the desire to make progress or how that turns into (as the OP puts it) an ickle bit of competition on the road, I reckon it's there in most of us! That mindset exists on the road, at track days and in competitive motorsport. Just different degrees.
Bert
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