Driving Technique - your comments please!
Discussion
Have a look at this in car video of Robert Kubica at the Hungaroring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuIFYDVgrjw
How does he get away with such an aggressive steering technique? (e.g. check out his turn in at 0m47s!!) Everything I've ever learnt about racing technique tells me that this is the way to drive a car fast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9nohNk51fs
They're both incredibly successful drivers who've reached the top of their sports.
Discuss...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuIFYDVgrjw
How does he get away with such an aggressive steering technique? (e.g. check out his turn in at 0m47s!!) Everything I've ever learnt about racing technique tells me that this is the way to drive a car fast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9nohNk51fs
They're both incredibly successful drivers who've reached the top of their sports.
Discuss...
That looks like it's from last year's race with the Michelins - they worked well with an agressive turn-in. Both Kubica and Alonso suffered this year learning the Bridgestones which don't take well to this treatment.
Button's style, on the other hand, is super-smooth. Both techniques work but depend on the equipment. For example Prost won 4 championships driving silkily-smooth, Fangio won 5 exercising the theory that you win the race as slowly as possible. Schumacher and Alonso, on the other hand, favour turn-in speed, Alonso's especially agressive on turn-in.
It's all down to set up and the handling characteristics of the car. The truly great drivers can cope when all is not as they want it.
Button's style, on the other hand, is super-smooth. Both techniques work but depend on the equipment. For example Prost won 4 championships driving silkily-smooth, Fangio won 5 exercising the theory that you win the race as slowly as possible. Schumacher and Alonso, on the other hand, favour turn-in speed, Alonso's especially agressive on turn-in.
It's all down to set up and the handling characteristics of the car. The truly great drivers can cope when all is not as they want it.
Edited by kevin ritson on Friday 16th November 11:59
kevin ritson said:
That looks like it's from last year's race with the Michelins - they worked well with an agressive turn-in. Both Kubica and Alonso suffered this year learning the Bridgestones which don't take well to this treatment.
That was indeed the case. I just can't see it being a productive way to drive on any tyre on any car though. We are talking about the very top level of motorsport here - I can't even begin to imagine how polished and accomplished the driving of these guys must be to stay competitive and keep their jobs as F1 drivers. That's why I'm surprised to see Kubica driving like that, and Alonso. I can only assume it's not slow... but why?! 
Ok, two top drivers in ICC *gearbox* not naming names :-)
One drives so smooth it's remarkable to watch as these things are violent machines
Other drives very aggressive hangs the back out and fights the wheel
Both lap the same, to the 100th...
Regards that vid, it could have been just for that one lap?
Kimi turns in a touch *fraction* before the corner, then turns for the apex he says the prepare the car for the change in direction.
One drives so smooth it's remarkable to watch as these things are violent machines
Other drives very aggressive hangs the back out and fights the wheel
Both lap the same, to the 100th...
Regards that vid, it could have been just for that one lap?
Kimi turns in a touch *fraction* before the corner, then turns for the apex he says the prepare the car for the change in direction.
Edited by SuperKartRacer on Friday 16th November 12:09
SuperKartRacer said:
Ok, two top drivers in ICC *gearbox* not naming names :-)
One drives so smooth it's remarkable to watch as these things are violent machines
Other drives very aggressive hangs the back out and fights the wheel
Both lap the same, to the 100th...
Regards that vid, it could have been just for that one lap?
Kimi turns in a touch *fraction* before the corner, then turns for the apex he says the prepare the car for the change in direction.
Both Alonso and Kubica are well known for the aggressive turn ins, so this is consistent across all their driving in F1 that we've seen so far. From memory, I think Alonso smoothed out his driving style for '07 on the Bridgestones, especially towards the latter half of the season.One drives so smooth it's remarkable to watch as these things are violent machines
Other drives very aggressive hangs the back out and fights the wheel
Both lap the same, to the 100th...
Regards that vid, it could have been just for that one lap?
Kimi turns in a touch *fraction* before the corner, then turns for the apex he says the prepare the car for the change in direction.
Edited by SuperKartRacer on Friday 16th November 12:09
Like you, I've also experienced this when racing. I've also frequently watched races where there's a battle for the lead involving one guy driving super smooth and the other guy all over the place and it seems to make no different to lap times. The theory obviously goes that breaking traction into big slip angles won't give you the same level of grip, but it's strange that it often doesn't work like that in the real world. I'm inclined to think that at our level of racing the smooth guys aren't necessarily on the absolute limit, so it makes no difference; but in the example of Kubica and Button they're clearly world class drivers who are drawing perfect friction circles at every corner.
RobM77 said:
SuperKartRacer said:
Ok, two top drivers in ICC *gearbox* not naming names :-)
One drives so smooth it's remarkable to watch as these things are violent machines
Other drives very aggressive hangs the back out and fights the wheel
Both lap the same, to the 100th...
Regards that vid, it could have been just for that one lap?
Kimi turns in a touch *fraction* before the corner, then turns for the apex he says the prepare the car for the change in direction.
Both Alonso and Kubica are well known for the aggressive turn ins, so this is consistent across all their driving in F1 that we've seen so far. From memory, I think Alonso smoothed out his driving style for '07 on the Bridgestones, especially towards the latter half of the season.One drives so smooth it's remarkable to watch as these things are violent machines
Other drives very aggressive hangs the back out and fights the wheel
Both lap the same, to the 100th...
Regards that vid, it could have been just for that one lap?
Kimi turns in a touch *fraction* before the corner, then turns for the apex he says the prepare the car for the change in direction.
Edited by SuperKartRacer on Friday 16th November 12:09
Like you, I've also experienced this when racing. I've also frequently watched races where there's a battle for the lead involving one guy driving super smooth and the other guy all over the place and it seems to make no different to lap times. The theory obviously goes that breaking traction into big slip angles won't give you the same level of grip, but it's strange that it often doesn't work like that in the real world. I'm inclined to think that at our level of racing the smooth guys aren't necessarily on the absolute limit, so it makes no difference; but in the example of Kubica and Button they're clearly world class drivers who are drawing perfect friction circles at every corner.
It's a tricky one, some drivers can drive with an agressive style but still lose no time, Lewis in Monaco this year? he looked well loose but very fast, but then again it may be
different without TC! we will see.
Whats your style?
Depends on the tyres and set-up, I think. Driver will set the car up to suit his preferred style or adapt his style to suit the optimum solution. Remember the Renaults in 2005 and 6 - Alonso and Fisi were driving through what looked like a phase of horrific understeer at the onset of almost every corner. Didn't seem to slow them up much (well, not FA, at least).
There have allways been two ways to drive a car , measured or aggressive.
I am in the measured camp which means I tend to shine when its wet but struggle to find the last couple of tenths in the dry.
I need a set up that works for me not against me.
Some drivers are aggressive.
I allways thought Senna drove into a corner knowing exactly what was going to happen before he got there whereas Mansell arrived at the corner and just reacted to whatever happened.
The one thing I will say is that allthough both styles can be equally fast they both have downpoints..
aggresive driving wears the tyres out quicker whereas smother driving doesn't get the heat into them
I am in the measured camp which means I tend to shine when its wet but struggle to find the last couple of tenths in the dry.
I need a set up that works for me not against me.
Some drivers are aggressive.
I allways thought Senna drove into a corner knowing exactly what was going to happen before he got there whereas Mansell arrived at the corner and just reacted to whatever happened.
The one thing I will say is that allthough both styles can be equally fast they both have downpoints..
aggresive driving wears the tyres out quicker whereas smother driving doesn't get the heat into them
Simple by the looks of it:
The car is/was obviously set up to understeer, no matter what you dial in won't turn in any deeper so his dramatic looking inputs have little or no effect. You'll find the race engineers will set this up based on the data inputs gathered. I bet he does'nt like cars that oversteer? - going by his style in that clip.
The car is/was obviously set up to understeer, no matter what you dial in won't turn in any deeper so his dramatic looking inputs have little or no effect. You'll find the race engineers will set this up based on the data inputs gathered. I bet he does'nt like cars that oversteer? - going by his style in that clip.
Edited by cptsideways on Saturday 17th November 00:31
[Agree what your saying, but these top karters are world class.
Whats your style?
[/quote]
There is absolutely no comparison between the top best drivers in karts and those in F1, why is it even relevant?
These are very light cars and as such you can get away with being a bit more aggressive
Whats your style?
[/quote]
There is absolutely no comparison between the top best drivers in karts and those in F1, why is it even relevant?
These are very light cars and as such you can get away with being a bit more aggressive
Edited by taffyracer on Saturday 17th November 08:02
It's a pity we cant see how their footwork ties in with the steering.
I would have thought Robert is equally as aggressive with the throttle and brake thus realigning the car with the back end, as apposed to Jens who is silky smooth all round, thus keeping the front and rear on a similar path where he can.
I would have thought Robert is equally as aggressive with the throttle and brake thus realigning the car with the back end, as apposed to Jens who is silky smooth all round, thus keeping the front and rear on a similar path where he can.
mark69sheer said:
I allways thought Senna drove into a corner knowing exactly what was going to happen before he got there whereas Mansell arrived at the corner and just reacted to whatever happened.
It's interesting you should say that, because in his book (Ayrton Senna's Prinicpals of Race Driving) Senna says that there is only one line through a corner, so you have to make up all your time by being good on the brakes.Perhaps he spent more time concentrating on setting the car up for the corner so he didn't have to think as much about getting round it and was more prepared for the turn as a result, making for a smoother more controlled style.
RobM77 said:
Have a look at this in car video of Robert Kubica at the Hungaroring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuIFYDVgrjw
How does he get away with such an aggressive steering technique? (e.g. check out his turn in at 0m47s!!) Everything I've ever learnt about racing technique tells me that this is the way to drive a car fast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9nohNk51fs
They're both incredibly successful drivers who've reached the top of their sports.
Discuss...
I think the tracks have a little to do with the difference in the videos too.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuIFYDVgrjw
How does he get away with such an aggressive steering technique? (e.g. check out his turn in at 0m47s!!) Everything I've ever learnt about racing technique tells me that this is the way to drive a car fast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9nohNk51fs
They're both incredibly successful drivers who've reached the top of their sports.
Discuss...
The Imola track appears dryer and warmer which will help Jensons grip. The Imola track has more higher speed corners where downforce will be working.
The Kubica track is colder so presumably less grip and the corners are sharper meaning he will be going slower and therefore have less downforce.
I did notice one corner where Kubica looked to have turned in too early though
Watching both there is clear diffrence on turn in.
Button guiding and edging the car to the limit careful not to up set it.
Kubica get it on the limit and dances around it over under over.
On the exit of the corner though you can see both are pretty much the same - it's all about getting the car to the apex at max speed and being able to add the power in as early as possible - I bet if kubica got in buttons car he would find it undrivable oversteer and button would find his to have undriveable understeer.
Only a theory I'm certainly not qualified to say a thing other than in fantasy....
David
Button guiding and edging the car to the limit careful not to up set it.
Kubica get it on the limit and dances around it over under over.
On the exit of the corner though you can see both are pretty much the same - it's all about getting the car to the apex at max speed and being able to add the power in as early as possible - I bet if kubica got in buttons car he would find it undrivable oversteer and button would find his to have undriveable understeer.
Only a theory I'm certainly not qualified to say a thing other than in fantasy....
David
I'm sure it's a down force issues as said above, the Hungarian being the slowest of the season alongside Monaco.
Other factors would include basic weight distribution of each car, tyre condition, track condition etc. Remember these tyres often don't have to last more than a few laps.
I thought the Top Gear test with the Caparo was a good example of the effect of downforce, or lack of it.
Other factors would include basic weight distribution of each car, tyre condition, track condition etc. Remember these tyres often don't have to last more than a few laps.
I thought the Top Gear test with the Caparo was a good example of the effect of downforce, or lack of it.
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