Is the Fezza wind tunnel playing up again?
Discussion
The only way it will stop is if all teams excluding Ferrari walk away from the FIA, Ferrari, Max and Bernie show.
F1 is now a joke - look at what the FIA are doing with McLaren now. They will only disclose their investigation into next years car, 4 weeks from the start of the season!!!
They screwed Renault with the mass-damper because Ferrari could not perfect it
They screwed McLaren (and continue to do so) becuase the new kid on the block was beating Ferrari (though he screwed up himself in the last 2 races).
Is F1 a fair and open sport today?
NO
Why don't all the other teams see that the fans would walk with them all to a brand new World Grand Prix Championship for contructors of real racing cars...
F1 is now a joke - look at what the FIA are doing with McLaren now. They will only disclose their investigation into next years car, 4 weeks from the start of the season!!!
They screwed Renault with the mass-damper because Ferrari could not perfect it
They screwed McLaren (and continue to do so) becuase the new kid on the block was beating Ferrari (though he screwed up himself in the last 2 races).
Is F1 a fair and open sport today?
NO
Why don't all the other teams see that the fans would walk with them all to a brand new World Grand Prix Championship for contructors of real racing cars...
It's not only wind tunnel time, it's what they can test in it as well.
It really is getting beyond a joke now.
grandprix.com said:
The FIA has said that engines must be dleivered to it no later than March 31 2008 for use in events between now and 2017. The World Council voted through technical restrictions that mean that teams may use no more than one windtunnel; they cannot use pressured or windtuunel that use different fluids (ie they cannot switch to water tunnels), they cannot run faster than 50m/sec and no models can be greater than 60% and no more than one car is allowed in the tunnel at the same time. The maximum usage must be equivalent to 15 runs per 8 hour day on 5 days per week for team F1 purposes. Tunnel may be contracted out at other times. Aerodynamic testing may only take place in wind tunnels if at reduced scale or at FIA approved test tracks if full scale. Full size testing to be subject to the F1 testing agreement. Fulls-cale testing can be only five days per year. Restrictions will be imposed to stop shift of resource from wind tunnel testing to CFD. The FIA says it will limit the number of people allowed to work on CFD projects and there will be performance limits on hardware/software development. There will be other restrictions on rig testing, design and manufacturing, suspension and brakes, hydraulic systems, bodywork, weight distribution, circuit testing and the number of team members allowed at races. Further details of all of this will be given on January 11 and there will be detailed regulations at the spring meeting of the WMSC.
The Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS), to be introduced in 2009, will continue to be an entirely open technology. As such, the use of any type of KERS storage/transmission technology will be permitted.
I don't see how they can police this at all. "Ooh McLaren you naughty people, you've been using too powerful computers. $100m please".The Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS), to be introduced in 2009, will continue to be an entirely open technology. As such, the use of any type of KERS storage/transmission technology will be permitted.
It really is getting beyond a joke now.
Full FIA Press release here.
Presumably though, the FIA expenses limits will not be high enough for any of their staff to ever manage to visit Italy to check on how a particular Italian team use their wind tunnel, just like having their own test track seems to have enabled them to ignore any restrictions which have been considered on testing.
I thought that at least one of the teams had a full sized tunnel - if so presumably they have wasted money now in relation to what would presumably be described as a cost cutting measure. Also, as the FIA have expressed a desire to increase overtaking wouldn't it be useful if team could have two cars in the tunnel at once to investigate ways to increase their chances of overtaking?
Presumably though, the FIA expenses limits will not be high enough for any of their staff to ever manage to visit Italy to check on how a particular Italian team use their wind tunnel, just like having their own test track seems to have enabled them to ignore any restrictions which have been considered on testing.
I thought that at least one of the teams had a full sized tunnel - if so presumably they have wasted money now in relation to what would presumably be described as a cost cutting measure. Also, as the FIA have expressed a desire to increase overtaking wouldn't it be useful if team could have two cars in the tunnel at once to investigate ways to increase their chances of overtaking?
kevin ritson said:
I think it's one of the few good ideas to come out of the FIA. F1 is way too reliant on aero anyway and windtunnels use so much power that it's a joke trying to reduce emissions if they're being used all the time.
And all this to gain, what, half a tenth?
But these proposals would be destroying the whole ethos of what F1 is about.And all this to gain, what, half a tenth?
Teams will spend whatever then can, on whatever they think will gain them an advantage over their rivals. The only way to counteract this would be to limit the money flowing into F1, and the only way you would be able to do this in a open manner (ie not specifiying what you can spend money on or capping budgets) would be to reduce the commercial attractiveness of the sport.
The fairest way to change teams spending patterns while allowing them free reign on what to spend their money on would be to structure the rules such that the biggest performance gains are available from (for example) energy recovery devices. Teams will then divert resource toward that area, and aero development would reduce.
Ferrari has 1 wind tunnel, McLaren, Williams, BMW, Honda and Toyota have 2 available to them, so what does the FIA do...
Ban's the use of 2 wind tunnels - another example of why every feels that the FIA is controlled by Ferrari, or the other way around.
Fine, let the FIA and Ferrari feck each other and run the A1GP series, then the rest od us can enjoy proper racing with open and honest rules managed by real people, not nazi thinking pricks!
Ban's the use of 2 wind tunnels - another example of why every feels that the FIA is controlled by Ferrari, or the other way around.
Fine, let the FIA and Ferrari feck each other and run the A1GP series, then the rest od us can enjoy proper racing with open and honest rules managed by real people, not nazi thinking pricks!
Its not really the stipulation of only using one tunnel (which I think is fair enough if it can be policed), its the stipulation that it can be no more than 60% scale.
From what I recall, the majority of F1 team's tunnels are either 50% with the newest (and therefore technologically most advanced) ones now almost full scale (100%). All this could well mean that those teams that have invested in large scale wind tunnels in recent years might have to destroy their existing tunnels and build yet another one at 60% to maximise the one tunnel they can use, because their small tunnel might be too outdated, and their new one too big!
From what I recall, the majority of F1 team's tunnels are either 50% with the newest (and therefore technologically most advanced) ones now almost full scale (100%). All this could well mean that those teams that have invested in large scale wind tunnels in recent years might have to destroy their existing tunnels and build yet another one at 60% to maximise the one tunnel they can use, because their small tunnel might be too outdated, and their new one too big!
LocoBlade said:
Its not really the stipulation of only using one tunnel (which I think is fair enough if it can be policed), its the stipulation that it can be no more than 60% scale.
From what I recall, the majority of F1 team's tunnels are either 50% with the newest (and therefore technologically most advanced) ones now almost full scale (100%). All this could well mean that those teams that have invested in large scale wind tunnels in recent years might have to destroy their existing tunnels and build yet another one at 60% to maximise the one tunnel they can use, because their small tunnel might be too outdated, and their new one too big!
Presumably the teams with 100% tunnel could still run them with a 60% model in them?From what I recall, the majority of F1 team's tunnels are either 50% with the newest (and therefore technologically most advanced) ones now almost full scale (100%). All this could well mean that those teams that have invested in large scale wind tunnels in recent years might have to destroy their existing tunnels and build yet another one at 60% to maximise the one tunnel they can use, because their small tunnel might be too outdated, and their new one too big!
I think the Ferrari one is 65% btw.
So now a team won't be allowed to use more than one wind tunnel. Most of the big teams have two. Ferrari only have one, but that's just a coincidence.
The other big team that only has one wind tunnel, BMW, has just spent a huge sum on the world's third-most powerful computer. The FIA have now sharply limited use of such computers, but that's just another coincidence.
And what about barring a team from testing on its own private track?
The other big team that only has one wind tunnel, BMW, has just spent a huge sum on the world's third-most powerful computer. The FIA have now sharply limited use of such computers, but that's just another coincidence.
And what about barring a team from testing on its own private track?
flemke said:
So now a team won't be allowed to use more than one wind tunnel. Most of the big teams have two. Ferrari only have one, but that's just a coincidence.
The other big team that only has one wind tunnel, BMW, has just spent a huge sum on the world's third-most powerful computer. The FIA have now sharply limited use of such computers, but that's just another coincidence.
And what about barring a team from testing on its own private track?
Of course they are coincidenceThe other big team that only has one wind tunnel, BMW, has just spent a huge sum on the world's third-most powerful computer. The FIA have now sharply limited use of such computers, but that's just another coincidence.
And what about barring a team from testing on its own private track?
. Otherwise, if it was really about cost cutting the FIA would say that no more wind tunnels could be built, and no more super computers could be bought. That would mean those who had invested wisely could continue to use the facilities they had invested. Their alternative is that having wasted money they have to spend more on the types of technology they are now allowed to use - hardly a cost saving measure is it?Unfortunately that blows out the argument for barring use of a private test track, but presumably because such a facility is likely to only have a short straight the FIA have banned straight line testing which usually takes place on airfields. Presumably another coincidence.
Edited by andyps on Monday 10th December 15:33
Honda have just spent £25 million on their new full scale tunnel which is in addition to their scale tunnel. They have had enough staff on hand to run the full scale tunnel pretty much 24/7 IIRC. With limits on the staffing of CFD departments to come in at the same time, that'll be £25 million down the drain and goodness knows how many aerodynamics engineers without any work to do at one team alone.
I wonder if Honda will be able to spin Advantage CFD off as a separate company again and contract out the CFD to them. How can the FIA control how many people a third party supplier employees to run CFD simulations when those engineers could be working for Honda F1 or any of their other customers (e.g. it was Advantage that did a lot of work on the Prodrive 550).
I wonder if Honda will be able to spin Advantage CFD off as a separate company again and contract out the CFD to them. How can the FIA control how many people a third party supplier employees to run CFD simulations when those engineers could be working for Honda F1 or any of their other customers (e.g. it was Advantage that did a lot of work on the Prodrive 550).
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