If you were tired of 'Ford' jibes...
Discussion
..it's going to get worse:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/ind...
Brace yourself for cries of 'That's a nice Indian tractor mate'.
How on earth did this happen?
Oh yes, British labour being too expensive, I remember now.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/ind...
Brace yourself for cries of 'That's a nice Indian tractor mate'.
How on earth did this happen?
Oh yes, British labour being too expensive, I remember now.
Oh dear, here we go again. 
This has nothing to do with the cost of British workforce and it has everything to do with the horrible financial mess Ford are currently in, To save me typing here is my reply to the previous many threads on why Tata buying Jag and Land Rover is a GOOD thing....
This has nothing to do with the cost of British workforce and it has everything to do with the horrible financial mess Ford are currently in, To save me typing here is my reply to the previous many threads on why Tata buying Jag and Land Rover is a GOOD thing....
In the last Tata buying Jaguar Thread I said:
I think Jag's problem has been bad management from Ford, lets face it Jag can make great cars, the New XK is awesome, the XF is looking great and we all know the XJ is a great luxury car, although not selling as well as it could. I don't think Tata will be buying Jag to teach them how to make cars Indian style, I'm sure they'll be buying Jag because they see the potential and are looking to perhaps help them do what Ford never could, to be successful! Ford had too many conflicts of interests to really give Jag the chance they deserved. Tata have a pile of money, Jag have good ideas and lots of potential, I'm sorry but I don't see this as a bad thing at all. What if Tata were to buy TVR and allow them to make cars again would anyone complain, I think not....
John.
John.
Jimbeaux said:
True, but don't forget that Ford brought Jag from the brink by instilling quality back into the cars. The quality surge was due to Ford, not Jaguar by itself. True about conflicts. Owning Aston Martin probably kept the Jag back from competing.
Indeed, I'm not saying Ford didn't do them any good, but they didn't realise Jag's full potential. So now Jag are building top quality, great cars, all they need is the cash to keep flowing, get out from under Ford so they can focus on just making great cars, in an article I read with the new MD of Jag there was a hint that the long awaited F-type may even be on the cards. I'm really positive about the future of Jag at the moment John.
Edited by steelej on Friday 25th January 15:22
steelej said:
Jimbeaux said:
True, but don't forget that Ford brought Jag from the brink by instilling quality back into the cars. The quality surge was due to Ford, not Jaguar by itself. True about conflicts. Owning Aston Martin probably kept the Jag back from competing.
Indeed, I'm not saying Ford didn't do them any good, but they didn't realise Jag's full potential. So now Jag are building top quality, great cars, all they need is the cash to keep flowing, get out from under Ford so they can focus on just making great cars, in an article I read with the new MD of Jag there was a hint that the long awaited F-type may even be on the cards. I'm really positive about the future of Jag at the moment John.
Edited by steelej on Friday 25th January 15:22
steelej said:
I read with the new MD of Jag there was a hint that the long awaited F-type may even be on the cards. I'm really positive about the future of Jag at the moment
John.
It could be a good way for Tata to kick off their ownership of Jaguar. It could allay a lot of fear and bring people onside very quickly if they have the capital to do it.John.
Jimbeaux said:
Me too; I would strongly consider one if an exciting model emerged.
So the new XKR's not exciting enough for you Jimbeaux a8hex said:
It could be a good way for Tata to kick off their ownership of Jaguar. It could allay a lot of fear and bring people onside very quickly if they have the capital to do it.
Totally agree, I think it would be a great kick off and Tata certainly have the money to do it John.
Edited by steelej on Friday 25th January 16:41
steelej said:
Jimbeaux said:
Me too; I would strongly consider one if an exciting model emerged.
So the new XKR's not exciting enough for you Jimbeaux a8hex said:
It could be a good way for Tata to kick off their ownership of Jaguar. It could allay a lot of fear and bring people onside very quickly if they have the capital to do it.
Totally agree, I think it would be a great kick off and Tata certainly have the money to do it John.
Edited by steelej on Friday 25th January 16:41
As for Tata having plenty of money....that is until they own Jaguar and become encumbered with the costs associated with ownership. Let's see if the cars sell more....new models may help.steelej said:
Oh dear, here we go again.
Another thread full of armchair experts..? 
steelej said:
This has nothing to do with the cost of British workforce and it has everything to do with the horrible financial mess Ford are currently in, To save me typing here is my reply to the previous many threads on why Tata buying Jag and Land Rover is a GOOD thing....
Really, so the financial position has nothing to do with the fact that Ford US have pursued with trucks (like all of Detroit) when there are gas price rises and moves towards more economical vehicles? Or in deed the $/£ and the cost of European vehicles in the US? Or the competition within the US? In the last Tata buying Jaguar Thread I said:
I think Jag's problem has been bad management from Ford, lets face it Jag can make great cars, the New XK is awesome, the XF is looking great and we all know the XJ is a great luxury car, although not selling as well as it could. I don't think Tata will be buying Jag to teach them how to make cars Indian style, I'm sure they'll be buying Jag because they see the potential and are looking to perhaps help them do what Ford never could, to be successful! Ford had too many conflicts of interests to really give Jag the chance they deserved. Tata have a pile of money, Jag have good ideas and lots of potential, I'm sorry but I don't see this as a bad thing at all. What if Tata were to buy TVR and allow them to make cars again would anyone complain, I think not....
John.
John.
Jag can make awesome cars, and you seem to be happy enough with your FMC managed / produced XKR... yet in the same breath you're saying conflcits of interest meant they couldn't do this..
Podie said:
steelej said:
Oh dear, here we go again.
Another thread full of armchair experts..? steelej said:
This has nothing to do with the cost of British workforce and it has everything to do with the horrible financial mess Ford are currently in, To save me typing here is my reply to the previous many threads on why Tata buying Jag and Land Rover is a GOOD thing....
Podie said:
Really, so the financial position has nothing to do with the fact that Ford US have pursued with trucks (like all of Detroit) when there are gas price rises and moves towards more economical vehicles? Or in deed the $/£ and the cost of European vehicles in the US? Or the competition within the US?
So what does any of what you've said above have anything to do with the cost of British workforce as I previously said. You just explained why ford are in a financial mess, again the reason why they need to offload as much as they can for a very quick cash injection. Podie said:
Bad management? What, like the fact that Jag didn't go to the wall over ten years ago? or the fact that quality improved under FMC control to levels where you no longer needed to buy two to keep one on the road?
Having the abiltiy to make production improvements and saving a company because you have the financial means to do so is very different from managing them properly and making them successful, yes Jag are still with us but decisions made by Ford motor company have held them back from the success they could have been, bringing out the X-type instead of the F-type as a perfect example. Podie said:
Jag can make awesome cars, and you seem to be happy enough with your FMC managed / produced XKR... yet in the same breath you're saying conflcits of interest meant they couldn't do this..
And yes I absolutely love my FMC managed/produced XKR, the car that had to be successful and it's doing great. Ford had to do something and they did this right, but you know when a company is thinking about it other brands when it just holds back ever so slightly, while the XKR is awesome it could have been even better.And by the way I don't dislike Ford, my other car is an Escort Cosworth a car which I will own until I die because I love it so much. I just think Ford could have done so much better with Jag, they're on the road to recovery and it looks like Tata will reap the benefit of it, off loading Jag/LR at this stage with so much potential is another poor decision from Ford....
John.
Speaking as a man of a family that has owned 3 "original" Jaguars over the years, I feel that the Jaguar brand has been devalued by Ford. They have tried to squeeze more cars out of the brand, after all Jaguar are a luxury but sporting marque. They don't need a 3 series, a 5 series and a 7 series rival in their range.
They have always been upmarket large saloons with the acception of the Mk2. They made very nice and smooth cars with a feline aspect to them.
The XJ has been their flagship model and of course they need a sportier model, the XK, but why a middle management saloon?
Back to the Ford aspect, Ford are losing money anyway, they need to share parts, everyone does it. Chassis sharing is a good idea when you have 3 or more cars in that sector, people must get over that they are driving a Ford product and you'll always get inferior parts on your "so-called" Jaguar. You pay Ford prices for them so if you're so hung up about the badge change brands!
If you drive a Smart don't try and kid yourself that you're driving a Mercedes or a Maybach.
They have always been upmarket large saloons with the acception of the Mk2. They made very nice and smooth cars with a feline aspect to them.
The XJ has been their flagship model and of course they need a sportier model, the XK, but why a middle management saloon?
Back to the Ford aspect, Ford are losing money anyway, they need to share parts, everyone does it. Chassis sharing is a good idea when you have 3 or more cars in that sector, people must get over that they are driving a Ford product and you'll always get inferior parts on your "so-called" Jaguar. You pay Ford prices for them so if you're so hung up about the badge change brands!
If you drive a Smart don't try and kid yourself that you're driving a Mercedes or a Maybach.
steelej said:
misunderstood said:
You pay Ford prices for them so if you're so hung up about the badge change brands!
None of my Fords have cost me 75 grand John.
steelej said:
Podie said:
steelej said:
Oh dear, here we go again.
Another thread full of armchair experts..? 
steelej said:
So what does any of what you've said above have anything to do with the cost of British workforce as I previously said. You just explained why ford are in a financial mess, again the reason why they need to offload as much as they can for a very quick cash injection.
The curse of "copy & paste" 
but my point was that the cost of the workforce isn't the only issue - there is a lot more too it. Factor in the cost of steel and the fact that competitors produce vehicles for less money, and their finance arms get more favourable lending rates - none of it helps.steelej said:
Having the abiltiy to make production improvements and saving a company because you have the financial means to do so is very different from managing them properly and making them successful, yes Jag are still with us but decisions made by Ford motor company have held them back from the success they could have been, bringing out the X-type instead of the F-type as a perfect example.
FMC have invested heavily in JLR, and made many improvements. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the "Uncle Nick" era... I agree the F-Type / XK180 was a sad loss, and I personally feel it could have helped the marque considerably, but one must consider the AML factor in the decision to can it. The X-Type was born out of market research - clearly, the customer is not always right.
steelej said:
And yes I absolutely love my FMC managed/produced XKR, the car that had to be successful and it's doing great. Ford had to do something and they did this right, but you know when a company is thinking about it other brands when it just holds back ever so slightly, while the XKR is awesome it could have been even better.
And by the way I don't dislike Ford, my other car is an Escort Cosworth a car which I will own until I die because I love it so much. I just think Ford could have done so much better with Jag, they're on the road to recovery and it looks like Tata will reap the benefit of it, off loading Jag/LR at this stage with so much potential is another poor decision from Ford....
John.
I think the XK is a cracking car, but again, temper the view with the fact that FMC was looking to sell Jag. The brief was to produce a good car that would create interest in the brand, perhaps it could have been better, but the key is too make the company attractive to prospective purchasers - not easy when losses are being posted.And by the way I don't dislike Ford, my other car is an Escort Cosworth a car which I will own until I die because I love it so much. I just think Ford could have done so much better with Jag, they're on the road to recovery and it looks like Tata will reap the benefit of it, off loading Jag/LR at this stage with so much potential is another poor decision from Ford....
John.
At no point have a said you don't like Ford. My responses on this thread are from someone who has sat on the other side of the fence. Much of what I read in the press and on this forum is so far wide of the mark, I often don't know where to begin. It's always easier to pass judgement on what should / should not have been done, but the vast majority of people simply have no idea of what goes on within, yet feel able to make those calls and state how easy it is, and where they went wrong.
Enjoy the XKR and the Cossie - they're both cracking cars.
(at least we agree on that eh? )Edited by Podie on Saturday 26th January 17:07
Gassing Station | Jaguar | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff