Low profile tyres vs F1 tyres
Discussion
Random question that occurred to me last night...
If low profile tyres improve grip and handling at the expense of comfort (small tyre wall flexs less), why do the tyres on F1 grand prix cars look so tall? Is it because the wheels are so small in order to save weight, so the tyres need to be taller to give sufficient ground clearance? F1 tyres are designed for one job and one job only, so I'm guessing the sidewalls can take the strain.
Any thoughts / definitive answers?
If low profile tyres improve grip and handling at the expense of comfort (small tyre wall flexs less), why do the tyres on F1 grand prix cars look so tall? Is it because the wheels are so small in order to save weight, so the tyres need to be taller to give sufficient ground clearance? F1 tyres are designed for one job and one job only, so I'm guessing the sidewalls can take the strain.
Any thoughts / definitive answers?
Low profile = better handling? Quite the opposite actually.
Low profile is often better on a very smooth surface like a track but on the road the lower the profile the greater the level of bump steer, tramlining and any under or over steer will be increasingly violent. Tyres need to flex sideways and up & down to absorb irregularities in the road. Low profile is a max power thing.
The question about F1 cars I can't answer, I don't know why.
Low profile is often better on a very smooth surface like a track but on the road the lower the profile the greater the level of bump steer, tramlining and any under or over steer will be increasingly violent. Tyres need to flex sideways and up & down to absorb irregularities in the road. Low profile is a max power thing.
The question about F1 cars I can't answer, I don't know why.
As far as I'm aware the regulations determine wheel size.
With that size wheel the best profile is the one you see on today's cars. The idea is that the tyre acts as a large proportion of the suspension movement allowing the car to be as stiff as possible.
As for them moving about a hell of a lot, take a look at the slow mo replays when the cars travel over the kerbs!!
With that size wheel the best profile is the one you see on today's cars. The idea is that the tyre acts as a large proportion of the suspension movement allowing the car to be as stiff as possible.
As for them moving about a hell of a lot, take a look at the slow mo replays when the cars travel over the kerbs!!
Tyre profile is actually a result of the wheel diameter required to fit big enough brakes and suitable suspension geometery within an overall wheel and tyre size.
F1 cars have carbon carbon brakes that are small and suspension geometery design for smooth roads and low total travel, hence they can have small wheels, which are also tightly controlled in the regs.
Mainly, for road cars, someone has decided that big wheels look better than small wheels!
F1 cars have carbon carbon brakes that are small and suspension geometery design for smooth roads and low total travel, hence they can have small wheels, which are also tightly controlled in the regs.
Mainly, for road cars, someone has decided that big wheels look better than small wheels!
Formula One cars are not allowed to have wheels bigger than 13" diameter. It's been this way for decades.The F1 designers try to make the best of a bad situation by utilising the tyre as a springing medium. The actual springs on an F1 car have virtually no travel.
If you want to see what they would run if there were no limit, look at LMPs, IRL, etc.
If you want to see what they would run if there were no limit, look at LMPs, IRL, etc.
wadgebeast said:
Random question that occurred to me last night...
If low profile tyres improve grip and handling at the expense of comfort (small tyre wall flexs less), why do the tyres on F1 grand prix cars look so tall? Is it because the wheels are so small in order to save weight, so the tyres need to be taller to give sufficient ground clearance? F1 tyres are designed for one job and one job only, so I'm guessing the sidewalls can take the strain.
Any thoughts / definitive answers?
Remember, F1 cars are built to a formula, rules which can limit performance. They don't necessarily use the best of anything, or use a given technology to its best advantage.If low profile tyres improve grip and handling at the expense of comfort (small tyre wall flexs less), why do the tyres on F1 grand prix cars look so tall? Is it because the wheels are so small in order to save weight, so the tyres need to be taller to give sufficient ground clearance? F1 tyres are designed for one job and one job only, so I'm guessing the sidewalls can take the strain.
Any thoughts / definitive answers?
Cheers,
FT.
kambites said:
Even the Le Mans prototypes don't have particularly low profile tyres though. Nowhere near as low as a lot of road cars.
ETA:
I think you'll find that those are 18" wheels - quite a bit bigger than 13".ETA:
Certainly it is true that the 20 and 25 aspect ratios that are used on some road cars are chosen for looks, which is a bit ironic, considering that they usually look ridiculous.
F1 tyres are fairly low profile when you take the width into consideration anyway. I suppose a lot to do with the weight and absorbtion qualities...weight of alloy VS rubber-weight of rubber VS suspension components. Have you ever picked up an F1 wheel/tyre combo? I did and it was so light I thought it was fake!
rev-erend said:
Big wheels are heavy ..
I weighed my TVR wheels and tyres
235/35 18 inch = 22kg
225/50 15 inch = 17.5 kg
That's a lot of unsprung weight .. no one wants that in F1 I would guess.
It's only the customer and marketing departments that want 18/19 and 20 inch wheels..
For the same rolling circumference, you'll lose a lot of control by adding 1 1/2" to the sidewall height. To compensate, you can have a stiffer construction, but that's putting weight back on again.I weighed my TVR wheels and tyres
235/35 18 inch = 22kg
225/50 15 inch = 17.5 kg
That's a lot of unsprung weight .. no one wants that in F1 I would guess.
It's only the customer and marketing departments that want 18/19 and 20 inch wheels..
I wouldn't know about the particular wheels that you have weighed, as there are a number of variables. The farther out it is from the axle, the worse any extra weight will be. The bulk of the weight in a wheel is towards the centre, as the material is under the greatest force near the junction of the spoke and the centre. This partially mitigates the drawback of a wheel's being heavier because it is a bigger diameter.
Also, by increasing wheel radius we decrease sidewall height, so there is something of a weight reduction achieved there.
The profile on road cars is very much marketing IMO I actually prefer the handling of my car on 16's than 18's it is much more compliant and adjusable on the limit, EVO's test on tyres highlighted this finding that the 17 inch wheel with a 225/45 aspect ration was far better than that of the 18 x 225/40 tyres.
You may also find when you look at the large majority of supercars the height of the sidewall on say a 19x315x25 is big compared to an 18x225x40 tyre as it is a % not a specific height if that makes sense. So sometimes low profile is not really accurate.
Anyway the LMS cars tyres will normally have big sidewalls to allow for extra tread and wear rates associated with endurance racing. also have a look at some external vids of touring cars from the mid to late 90's and you will see why low profile is not great in racing, in some cases you will see metal touching tarmac due to the tyre wall not have enough compliancy or area to cover the wheel under hard cornering.
You may also find when you look at the large majority of supercars the height of the sidewall on say a 19x315x25 is big compared to an 18x225x40 tyre as it is a % not a specific height if that makes sense. So sometimes low profile is not really accurate.
Anyway the LMS cars tyres will normally have big sidewalls to allow for extra tread and wear rates associated with endurance racing. also have a look at some external vids of touring cars from the mid to late 90's and you will see why low profile is not great in racing, in some cases you will see metal touching tarmac due to the tyre wall not have enough compliancy or area to cover the wheel under hard cornering.
flemke said:
Formula One cars are not allowed to have wheels bigger than 13" diameter. It's been this way for decades.The F1 designers try to make the best of a bad situation by utilising the tyre as a springing medium. The actual springs on an F1 car have virtually no travel.
If you want to see what they would run if there were no limit, look at LMPs, IRL, etc.
Yep, since about 1970.If you want to see what they would run if there were no limit, look at LMPs, IRL, etc.
The Walrus said:
Anyway the LMS cars tyres will normally have big sidewalls to allow for extra tread and wear rates associated with endurance racing.
How much tread wear do you think there is?
I've never measured it, but I'd be surprised if there were more than 3.5 mm of designed wear on a slick. Even wets, which have extra-deep blocks to shift water and also to generate tyre temp, have no more than 7 mm.
The tread on a slick cannot be very thick, or it would overheat.
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