Lets look at our guitars thread

[Tom_C76]

Mastodon2 said:

Tom_C76 said:

Leaves nowhere for the bass player to go to if you ever take it into a band situation too. Unless your bassist goes for the Hooky approach then you'll fit nicely beneath him

Creating a problem that doesn't exist.

Does it though? If you're playing the guitar riffs down lower than a standard tuned bass, what does the bass do? Or do you then go to a 6 string bass and play below the lowest point of hearing so the bassline is purely felt?

I'm not trying to start an argument by the way, I'm genuinely curious as a guitarist who very occasionally tinkers with drop D on a guitar tuned down a semitone (effectively drop d flat).

[suthol]

The job of the bass player in concert with the drummer is to build and hold a groove, not noodle around like your average guitarist.

I've been playing bass for 50 years and when playing a Tele/Strat am the primary lead player in the band so am very much aware of the different roles.

16th notes or smaller rarely belong in the lower register

[Mastodon2]

Tom_C76 said:

Does it though? If you're playing the guitar riffs down lower than a standard tuned bass, what does the bass do? Or do you then go to a 6 string bass and play below the lowest point of hearing so the bassline is purely felt?

I'm not trying to start an argument by the way, I'm genuinely curious as a guitarist who very occasionally tinkers with drop D on a guitar tuned down a semitone (effectively drop d flat).

You're generally not tuned lower than the bassist though, as pretty much any band using guitars with this sort of lower register are using at least 6 string bassses, usually tuned to match an octave down. If you're on guitar and you tune your lowest string to E, the same as a bass E, you're covering the same space as the bassist assuming that the bassist is using a 4 string tuned to E, which as I say is almost never the case. On top of that, unless you have a very specialised guitar and rig, tuning that far down on a guitar will sound like st anyway and you'll have almost no note definition. In the reality of playing with these instruments, it's just not an issue. There is more than enough room for creativity from everyone.

As already mentioned, the point of the bass is to lock in with the drums and create the foundation that drives the song , the guitars are a layer on top. The problem of "what does the bass do?" is worsened in metal where many albums are mixed so that the bass is hard to hear. However, if you play live and the bass cuts out and the guitars keep going, then you understand how that bass is the driver.

[IainT]

suthol said:

The job of the bass player in concert with the drummer is to build and hold a groove, not noodle around like your average guitarist.

I've been playing bass for 50 years and when playing a Tele/Strat am the primary lead player in the band so am very much aware of the different roles.

16th notes or smaller rarely belong in the lower register

Sorry if this sounds a little confrontational but in 50 years you've not learned that it totally depends on what you're tune playing and what effect you're looking for? The idea that bass must be limited to this range of notes, style of play or rhythmic element or that guitar needs to stay out of that register is pretty narrow minded.

For me I love the interplay bass sits in a sweet-spot of rhythm and melody ranging from providing a platform at one end through reinforcing the hooks, building dynamics (everyone's job) and adding melody/counterpoint. The best music is when all the band works in perfect concert to produce a whole. Limiting your idea of what each instrument has to do rather than what it needs to do to make a genre work seems silly to me.

As for the 16th notes comment... Again genre-dependent - a very quick muted/percussive low B is a great tool to use and when played very short the pitch doesn't even register just the rhythmic element. Lots of very good bands use low, down to the F#, but it works in the style the go with.

I do see your points to an extent if your're talking about playing some dull Elvis tributes (for example) though. Something interesting happening there would probably ruin it!

[IainT]

Mastodon2 said:

As already mentioned, the point of the bass is to lock in with the drums and create the foundation that drives the song , the guitars are a layer on top. The problem of "what does the bass do?" is worsened in metal where many albums are mixed so that the bass is hard to hear. However, if you play live and the bass cuts out and the guitars keep going, then you understand how that bass is the driver.

It's really interesting to listen to bands like Periphery and others in that genere - much of the separation comes from the tones chosen by the instruments and play style. The variation between holding down the rhythm and being part of the melody is key - knowing when to and when not to. The youtube clip from "Make Total Destroy" from the bass perspective is a pretty good example of this...

[Mastodon2]

IainT said:

suthol said:

The job of the bass player in concert with the drummer is to build and hold a groove, not noodle around like your average guitarist.

I've been playing bass for 50 years and when playing a Tele/Strat am the primary lead player in the band so am very much aware of the different roles.

16th notes or smaller rarely belong in the lower register

Sorry if this sounds a little confrontational but in 50 years you've not learned that it totally depends on what you're tune playing and what effect you're looking for? The idea that bass must be limited to this range of notes, style of play or rhythmic element or that guitar needs to stay out of that register is pretty narrow minded.

For me I love the interplay bass sits in a sweet-spot of rhythm and melody ranging from providing a platform at one end through reinforcing the hooks, building dynamics (everyone's job) and adding melody/counterpoint. The best music is when all the band works in perfect concert to produce a whole. Limiting your idea of what each instrument has to do rather than what it needs to do to make a genre work seems silly to me.

As for the 16th notes comment... Again genre-dependent - a very quick muted/percussive low B is a great tool to use and when played very short the pitch doesn't even register just the rhythmic element. Lots of very good bands use low, down to the F#, but it works in the style the go with.

I do see your points to an extent if your're talking about playing some dull Elvis tributes (for example) though. Something interesting happening there would probably ruin it!

Indeed, it's saddening to see someone who has played bass for half a century but apparently missed Jaco Pastorius and everything that followed his. These tragic ideas about what an instrument "should" do, instead of what it "can" do, so creatively stagnant and outdated. Everyone should have a role but no one should feel limited by their instrument.

If we decided that bass should stick to pumping 8ths along a root note in time with the kick drum we'd have missed out on some of the most incredible music ever created.

[Blayney]

I like that Cliff Burton didn't really play the bass like a bass

https://youtu.be/22W38jJk81s

Also I always look forward to hearing John Myung

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVJ2zbGmMAI

Tim Commerford doesn't exactly just sit around playing root notes either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKA05OKzvP8

[OldSkoolRS]

Maybe not a new guitar, but a new amp instead. Just on a deal as 'end of line' so after nearly 2 hours of trying different amps in the shop I settled on this 1 watt head. Seems to give me all the classic rock type tones I want, especially using my Epi Les Paul into it. The Line 6 is faulty, so I've soldered a speaker cable on to the back of the speaker so I can plug the head into it. Doesn't sound too bad actually (Celestion 'custom' 12" speaker) and I tried it out earlier today at the rehearsal studio into a 4 x 12 where it sounded epic.

Marshall JMP-1 head:



My 'mini stack':

[tuscaneer]

davepoth said:

Play around with the string gauges a bit, put string 7 as a C, have 7-2 tuned as per your normal six string, and then a high and low string either side?

after a few different alternatives this is pretty much where i've ended up

i'll post up with some comparison shots in a minute

[tuscaneer]

for comparison!.............





so, i have been at it for days. i've tried a good few tunings but if i'm being honest i should havve just bought a 7 string. it's just TOO LOW at the bottom. i can only assume people like stephen carpenter spend mega bucks on amplification because initially everything at the bottom sounded like a metallic thud.

what i have ended up doing is tune the middle 6 strings as per my gibson..ie. drop D tuning then everything down a further 2 steps. my thinnest string is now simple a duplication of the high E ( which of course is now C) while the lowest string is an octave lower than low A (which is now a G ) ......

so a low G is my bottom end and it's just high enough to be cohesive. F# and lower was just fking crazy.

[OldSkoolRS]

I've probably been playing too long to try to get my head around 7 or 8 strings now, but I admire the others who give it a try.

I got the second of my two new heads today. This time a Vox for the cleaner tones to use my Strat and Tele with (though it turns out the dirtier tones are useful too and with my other guitars). Like the Marshall I posted a few days ago it is going into my Line 6 Celestion 12" speaker until I get a proper cab built (by a Pro as I want it to look decent enough for the living room).

I must have played for about 5 hours today since it arrived and still haven't tried my Tele and Epi Les Paul through it as I got so into trying the Strat and my 50s Tribute Les Paul (P90s).

[Uriel]

What's the best method for selling guitars these days, Ebay with no reserve and a 99p start? I'm assuming dealers and shops will pay very little and it's been a long time since I've been active on any guitar forums. Earlier in the year I was struck with brachial neuritis which left me with partially paralysed left thumb and forefinger. Function may come back in time, but just as likely may not and I'm slowing resigning myself to the idea of selling up all bar maybe one.

[Don1]

Could we help a friend in need? Post them up here / for sale and tell us? Either that, or Reverb looks good.

[tuscaneer]

Uriel said:

What's the best method for selling guitars these days, Ebay with no reserve and a 99p start? I'm assuming dealers and shops will pay very little and it's been a long time since I've been active on any guitar forums. Earlier in the year I was struck with brachial neuritis which left me with partially paralysed left thumb and forefinger. Function may come back in time, but just as likely may not and I'm slowing resigning myself to the idea of selling up all bar maybe one.

st that's terrible mate....here's hoping you make a full recovery.....don't sell up just yet because you may recover fully and regret selling

[tuscaneer]

doogz said:

What's the scale length. Looks a bit bigger than your LP, but not as much as I was perhaps expecting?

WRT your issues finding the correct tuning, I keep my Explorer in Drop C, and found after experimenting with a few different gauges and having to tweak the set up, that the correct strings make a massive difference. I also raised the action a little bit higher than on something that I'd play the blues on, because the strings do physically move more.

Don't just 'settle' on a set up, keep tinkering til you get it right.

25.5 scale length....it doesn't feel TOO big in my hand now i'm getting used to it.

i think i definately need to piss about with the string guage as the low A doesn't resonate how i'd like it to...still a bit thuddy. i play quite "spread out" chords in a heavily palm muted staccato fashion and it works ok there but on big ringy chords it still doesn't quite cut it.

i am really impressed with the even spread of sound the guitar makes...i was worried that with all those strings the little notes would get lost but it's really tidy ....the only downside for me is that by tuning the way i have i am not making the most of the fact i have 8 strings

[tuscaneer]

OldSkoolRS said:

I've probably been playing too long to try to get my head around 7 or 8 strings now, but I admire the others who give it a try.

I got the second of my two new heads today. This time a Vox for the cleaner tones to use my Strat and Tele with (though it turns out the dirtier tones are useful too and with my other guitars). Like the Marshall I posted a few days ago it is going into my Line 6 Celestion 12" speaker until I get a proper cab built (by a Pro as I want it to look decent enough for the living room).

I must have played for about 5 hours today since it arrived and still haven't tried my Tele and Epi Les Paul through it as I got so into trying the Strat and my 50s Tribute Les Paul (P90s).

for the living room!!.....my missus wouldn't wear that for a second!!!..... i quite like those mini stacks you've got there pal....much more convenient in the house that my jcm 900 marshall full size stack!....that's been relogated to the garage now there's no band to speak of

[davidd]

Uriel said:

What's the best method for selling guitars these days, Ebay with no reserve and a 99p start? I'm assuming dealers and shops will pay very little and it's been a long time since I've been active on any guitar forums. Earlier in the year I was struck with brachial neuritis which left me with partially paralysed left thumb and forefinger. Function may come back in time, but just as likely may not and I'm slowing resigning myself to the idea of selling up all bar maybe one.

That's a shame, really sorry to hear it. I've just stuck a couple of guitars on ebay. Personally I hate doing it but they will go. I've put them at starting price of £150, buy it now of £540.

What are you selling? I'm in the market for a spare gigging guitar. PM me as the mods will get grumpy.

[OldSkoolRS]

Uriel, you could try advertising on Gumtree for collection only. I picked up a lightly used Telecaster last year from Gumtree and the whole process seemed to work well.

Tuscaneer. It's funny you mention that you wouldn't get away with an amp in the living room. On another forum someone said I should 'grow some balls' because I was saying that I didn't want a full sized Marshall head in the living room. At that time I had two combos, one head and three guitars in there and was thinking I got off lightly.

I did concede to move my drum kit out of the living room though, but at least it made the guitar amp look like a minor issue. You can barely see it behind the kit:

[Mastodon2]

tuscaneer said:

for comparison!.............





so, i have been at it for days. i've tried a good few tunings but if i'm being honest i should havve just bought a 7 string. it's just TOO LOW at the bottom. i can only assume people like stephen carpenter spend mega bucks on amplification because initially everything at the bottom sounded like a metallic thud.

what i have ended up doing is tune the middle 6 strings as per my gibson..ie. drop D tuning then everything down a further 2 steps. my thinnest string is now simple a duplication of the high E ( which of course is now C) while the lowest string is an octave lower than low A (which is now a G ) ......

so a low G is my bottom end and it's just high enough to be cohesive. F# and lower was just fking crazy.

Scale length is your issue - I've got a 27" Ibanez 8 string and even that doesn't have enough tension to really work at anything below F#. You need closer to 30" to really make anything lower work and even then you need to run a good EQ pedal to really fine tune that balance so the lows are tight and the highs are high. You need a multiscale instrument to make 8+ strings work well, as going towards that 30" scale really stops it playing and sounding like a normal guitar. I've long thought that 7 strings are the sweet spot and I own a 7 and an 8 string now.

[Uriel]

Thanks guys. I deliberately didn't list what I have because I didn't want this to come off as a snidey classified. I'm still umming and aahhhing over it and caught in the dilemma that the only stuff that I don't mind getting rid of so much is the cheap and easy to replace stuff, the sale of which wouldn't really benefit me too much, and the stuff that might bring useful cash is the better stuff with more sentimental attatchments I'd like to hold on to. The Jem BSB would be particularly difficult to part with since it looks like it just came from the factory and it's rare to see them these days with such solid orignal colour, particularly on the neck and body edges.

If I do decide to sell, then I'll stick them up here before moving on to ebay.