How to heel and toe?
Discussion
Hi there pistonheaders, just wondered if anyone could help me out? this might sound a bit dumb to some of you but here goes.
Although iv been driving for quite some time now i still cant work out how and why people use the "heal toe" method, iv always wanted to try it but dont really know how and what benefits this would have on the performance of my car?
Any help would be greatly appreciated
cheers
Although iv been driving for quite some time now i still cant work out how and why people use the "heal toe" method, iv always wanted to try it but dont really know how and what benefits this would have on the performance of my car?
Any help would be greatly appreciated
cheers
Video
Why do it?
Because its smoother and doesn't destabilise the car when you change down under braking. You need a bit of twinkletoes to do it but it sounds good and your passengers will find the ride smoother.
Alternatively contact the IAM to learn about the alternative: the System of Car Control.
however when pressing the throttle do you have to try and get the engine revs with the clutch down to what the revs would be whilst driving in that gear? or does any amount of throttle help provide a smooth downshift?Alex12 said:
do you have to try and get the engine revs with the clutch down to what the revs would be whilst driving in that gear?
Yes. As close as possible. Since you do it when changing from a higher gear to a lower gear you need to raise the revs to what is required for the lower gear, taking into account the fact that you are braking and slowing down.In practice being near enough right is better than not doing it at all.
You will soon find out if you are [i]over[i]doing it...the car will pull forward...
Driver broken down flags down a big Jag...
Can you help me, I have broken down...
Sorry, I am not a mechanic, I am a Chiropodist...
OK, can you give me a toe?
BOF.
PS - If you Really Really want to practise heel and toe...do it offroad and get some instruction!
Can you help me, I have broken down...
Sorry, I am not a mechanic, I am a Chiropodist...
OK, can you give me a toe?
BOF.
PS - If you Really Really want to practise heel and toe...do it offroad and get some instruction!
Edited by BOF on Thursday 28th February 18:38
Edited by BOF on Thursday 28th February 18:42
BOF said:
PS - If you Really Really want to practise heel and toe...do it offroad and get some instruction!
Why?.Edited by BOF on Thursday 28th February 18:38
Edited by BOF on Thursday 28th February 18:42
Decades ago I taught myself to DDC and H&T, not offroad or with instruction.
Just being sensible as to where I practised.
Heel and toe is a racing technique, it enables you to select a lower gear whilst braking, without unsettling the car with clutch drag. It means you can brake later and get back on the gas earlier.
It's really unnecessary on the road, but quite satisfying when you get it right. I have never been able to do it like the graphic due to big feet and small pedal box and limited knee room. Instead, I use the ball of my foot and sort of roll it over to the gas pedal whilst braking.
For road driving, you can avoid clutch drag by blipping the throttle after you have finished braking, rather than doing it all at the same time. That's much easier to perfect that heel and toe.
It's really unnecessary on the road, but quite satisfying when you get it right. I have never been able to do it like the graphic due to big feet and small pedal box and limited knee room. Instead, I use the ball of my foot and sort of roll it over to the gas pedal whilst braking.
For road driving, you can avoid clutch drag by blipping the throttle after you have finished braking, rather than doing it all at the same time. That's much easier to perfect that heel and toe.
If you don’t mind my saying so, ‘Heel & toe + double declutch’ was a technique born out of gearboxes without synchromesh, of which the Hewland racing gearboxes could be made to last longer between dog ring and gear replacement if you avoided the ‘crash’ as you changed down as you forced the unmatched speed-wise cogs together.
So if your gearbox synchros are rogered, it's one way round screwing them altogether
The ‘toe’ on the brake was to slow down of course, the ‘heel’ to match the engine revs-cog speed-road speed together.
Big feet are an advantage because the ‘heel’ bit of ‘toe and heeling’ can’t really be practiced in modern cars. Certainly in single seater you could roll the side of the foot on to the accelerator while pressing the brake no problem. ‘Toe and right side ball’ would be accurate. I don’t recall any problem with doing this in 993s either. If you’re having a problem, maybe sit further back from the pedals and make the seat back more upright. You need to be ‘addressing’ the car controls more ‘openly’. I’m lanky and like to sit ‘on top’ of the controls, but can’t get too close to the pedals for this reason. Knees get in the way.
The other natural technique that us more mature types can appreciate, is NOT holding the clutch down for any longer than necessary for the wear it causes both to the plate and the springs. And I’m talking about down shifts where the toe & heel is combined with double declutch, but the clutch gets no more than easy quick ‘dabs’. In theory, if your timing is good, you can do all this without the clutch. But don’t try it, it does get too difficult for the road and unessessary on modern boxes, but I drove at Le Mans for 6 hours with no clutch and once you’d go out of the pits (which we did off a jack, turning over, low revs in first) it was no problem, quite normal.
Once all this is perfected, the economy of movement is important.
Like holding the steering wheel in the right place, it takes practice and discipline to start with but for fast driving, getting along in a seamless smooth and efficient style, it is a joy to practice.
So if your gearbox synchros are rogered, it's one way round screwing them altogether
The ‘toe’ on the brake was to slow down of course, the ‘heel’ to match the engine revs-cog speed-road speed together.
Big feet are an advantage because the ‘heel’ bit of ‘toe and heeling’ can’t really be practiced in modern cars. Certainly in single seater you could roll the side of the foot on to the accelerator while pressing the brake no problem. ‘Toe and right side ball’ would be accurate. I don’t recall any problem with doing this in 993s either. If you’re having a problem, maybe sit further back from the pedals and make the seat back more upright. You need to be ‘addressing’ the car controls more ‘openly’. I’m lanky and like to sit ‘on top’ of the controls, but can’t get too close to the pedals for this reason. Knees get in the way.
The other natural technique that us more mature types can appreciate, is NOT holding the clutch down for any longer than necessary for the wear it causes both to the plate and the springs. And I’m talking about down shifts where the toe & heel is combined with double declutch, but the clutch gets no more than easy quick ‘dabs’. In theory, if your timing is good, you can do all this without the clutch. But don’t try it, it does get too difficult for the road and unessessary on modern boxes, but I drove at Le Mans for 6 hours with no clutch and once you’d go out of the pits (which we did off a jack, turning over, low revs in first) it was no problem, quite normal.
Once all this is perfected, the economy of movement is important.
Like holding the steering wheel in the right place, it takes practice and discipline to start with but for fast driving, getting along in a seamless smooth and efficient style, it is a joy to practice.
ph123 said:
I don’t recall any problem with doing this in 993s either. If you’re having a problem, maybe sit further back from the pedals and make the seat back more upright. You need to be ‘addressing’ the car controls more ‘openly’. I’m lanky and like to sit ‘on top’ of the controls, but can’t get too close to the pedals for this reason. Knees get in the way.
I've just got into a bad habit and haven't made the effort to fix it. On the track it becomes obvious because full braking becomes tricky to maintain with only half a foot on the brake pedal, so I really need to re-learn it.I do find the 993 wheel to far away for my liking, but I've just installed GT3 seats which should force me into a more upright position.
Thanks.
ph123 said:
Big feet are an advantage because the ‘heel’ bit of ‘toe and heeling’ can’t really be practiced in modern cars. Certainly in single seater you could roll the side of the foot on to the accelerator while pressing the brake no problem. ‘Toe and right side ball’ would be accurate. I don’t recall any problem with doing this in 993s either.
I didn't think anyone actually used their heel anymore in modern cars? Side of the foot seems a lot more controllable to me...My jedi heel and toe technique is obviously way short of standards.
If the ultimate objective of this technique is to say, reduce a lap time, then I would fail every time. Reason being is during the heel-toe manoevre because I am not fully concentrating on the braking input I find that the whole slowing down process is more inefficient. I have no ABS.
Obviously the balance of the car is improved but I think ultimate braking distance suffers as a result. Any tips to improve this or is it just practise and more practise?
If the ultimate objective of this technique is to say, reduce a lap time, then I would fail every time. Reason being is during the heel-toe manoevre because I am not fully concentrating on the braking input I find that the whole slowing down process is more inefficient. I have no ABS.
Obviously the balance of the car is improved but I think ultimate braking distance suffers as a result. Any tips to improve this or is it just practise and more practise?
WhoseGeneration said:
BOF said:
PS - If you Really Really want to practise heel and toe...do it offroad and get some instruction!
Why?.Edited by BOF on Thursday 28th February 18:38
Edited by BOF on Thursday 28th February 18:42
Decades ago I taught myself to DDC and H&T, not offroad or with instruction.
Just being sensible as to where I practised.
Decades ago I practised driving without using the clutch on a Ford Anglia for a laugh...two years ago I was checked out by a Trafpol and and IAM Senior Observer in my wifes manual (I tend to get the autos but need to be checked out for manuals)...the Observer put his hand on my left knee when I said I would do some clutchless changes...nothing sexual...just checking.
My comment, to the OP, who seems to be relatively inexperienced, but intelligent enough to ask the question and an enthusiast, comes from the background that 'decades ago', we had about 90% less traffic on our roads (?) and more room to experiment...I would still recommend practising somewhere safe, not on a public road, until he gets it right.
As with other comments, unless you are trying to shave seconds off track times, I fail to see the point of it in day to day driving...
BOF.
Example, just above?...
Now theres something for me to practice this weekend - hopefully it wont go like my first attempt at left foot braking, nearly put myself through the windscreen
Edited by BOF on Friday 29th February 18:40
As Hornetrider mentioned, I seem to have a little less control of the braking force whilst doing this as I lose the pivot point my heel provides when it is resting on the floor. As a result, while I may think I'm doing it all right, I can see the passengers moving about as the braking force isn't even when I swivel my foot around to blip the throttle.
I no longer bother trying it if I have passengers fopr this reason unless it's aboslutely nessasary, howver when I am on my own, I will always try to take a quiet country road route so I can practice it as much as possible. It does feel good wehn you get it right. I just wish I had something that sounded a little less like a blender so I could hear the throttle blips better!
I no longer bother trying it if I have passengers fopr this reason unless it's aboslutely nessasary, howver when I am on my own, I will always try to take a quiet country road route so I can practice it as much as possible. It does feel good wehn you get it right. I just wish I had something that sounded a little less like a blender so I could hear the throttle blips better!
My technique is more like the side of the foot method mentioned earlier - more like big toe/little toe with the heel on the floor as a pivot. This works very well with most modern pedals, trying to use the heel can get a bit contorted and uncomfortable.
Very thin soles are a big help with feel though.
Very thin soles are a big help with feel though.
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