Legality / penalty for DECAT?
Discussion
Hi,
Lets assume someone has got a valid MOT certificate, but after the MOT test they removed the CAT from their exhaust, informed their insurer of the mod and paid the additional premium. Then lets say that person is stopped by police and subject to a roadside emissions or other test. Couple of questions:
Q1: Is there an offence, assuming that the emissions with no CAT would not pass an MOT test? (Possible problems may be: 1. Emissions not compliant with a law? or 2. A car manufactured after a certain date has to be sold with a CAT, but does this make it an offence to remove it? or 3. A problem with compliance with Construction and Use regs.)
Q2: If there is an offence, what would the penalty be?
(I.e. are we talking £30 and a retification notice, like refit CAT and get a fresh emissions Pass certificate? Or, are we talking a big (triple digit) fine? Or, would there be points involved?)
Q3:If the vehicle was involved in an accident, would the insurers be able to use the DECAT as an excuse to avoid paying out? Bear in mind that it HAS been disclosed and premium paid, so what I'm thinking of is: Would the insurers deem that the vehicle was not "roadworthy" since it would fail and emissions test/or the contraveen Construction and Use regs? (Two issues here, 1. Is the car infact "not roadworthy" and 2. Even if it's not "roadworthy" would this invalidate insurance, esp given the mod was declared?)
IMPORTANT:
I would really like to keep this discussion on topic. I have asked some fairly specific questions and I would really apprieciate answers from people who work for Police/Insurers/Have first hand experience of these issues. I.e. if you don't KNOW the answer, please don't guess!! There is a lot of confusion and mis-information on the subject of what aspects of a DECAT are legal and what are illegal, hence in this thread I'm trying to get some definative answers. So if it is possible to back up comments with links to government websites, that would be perfect as it will give all readers of this thread more comfort over what the Facts are according to Law/Legislation/etc.
Thanks in advance. :-)
Lets assume someone has got a valid MOT certificate, but after the MOT test they removed the CAT from their exhaust, informed their insurer of the mod and paid the additional premium. Then lets say that person is stopped by police and subject to a roadside emissions or other test. Couple of questions:
Q1: Is there an offence, assuming that the emissions with no CAT would not pass an MOT test? (Possible problems may be: 1. Emissions not compliant with a law? or 2. A car manufactured after a certain date has to be sold with a CAT, but does this make it an offence to remove it? or 3. A problem with compliance with Construction and Use regs.)
Q2: If there is an offence, what would the penalty be?
(I.e. are we talking £30 and a retification notice, like refit CAT and get a fresh emissions Pass certificate? Or, are we talking a big (triple digit) fine? Or, would there be points involved?)
Q3:If the vehicle was involved in an accident, would the insurers be able to use the DECAT as an excuse to avoid paying out? Bear in mind that it HAS been disclosed and premium paid, so what I'm thinking of is: Would the insurers deem that the vehicle was not "roadworthy" since it would fail and emissions test/or the contraveen Construction and Use regs? (Two issues here, 1. Is the car infact "not roadworthy" and 2. Even if it's not "roadworthy" would this invalidate insurance, esp given the mod was declared?)
IMPORTANT:
I would really like to keep this discussion on topic. I have asked some fairly specific questions and I would really apprieciate answers from people who work for Police/Insurers/Have first hand experience of these issues. I.e. if you don't KNOW the answer, please don't guess!! There is a lot of confusion and mis-information on the subject of what aspects of a DECAT are legal and what are illegal, hence in this thread I'm trying to get some definative answers. So if it is possible to back up comments with links to government websites, that would be perfect as it will give all readers of this thread more comfort over what the Facts are according to Law/Legislation/etc.
Thanks in advance. :-)
Wow - you don't ask for much.
Firstly as far as I amn aware there is no specific offence of removing a CAT.
Its removal may well take you into realm of unlawful emmissions in that you no longer comply with the requirements of Reg 61, 61a Motor Vehicles (Con and Use) Regs 1986 and a plethora of EEC Regs. For this reason I only offer that summary having no time to spend long hours in EEC Regs.
If you go to
http://www.tinyurl.com/38ojga
you can read and get an idea from the Northern Ireland Con and Use Regs that mirror those of England. Go to Reg 74.
The penalty for breach of emission regs is £1,000 fine (cars) £2,500 (Goods vehicles)- no points (Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988)
As to the Insurance, they are a money making business, and if they find out that you have done something that you should informed them of (modification etc)then if they cover any claim against or by on your Insurance then they will use this as a lever to reclaim their money back.
Someone like Nodger may elaborate.
dvd
Firstly as far as I amn aware there is no specific offence of removing a CAT.
Its removal may well take you into realm of unlawful emmissions in that you no longer comply with the requirements of Reg 61, 61a Motor Vehicles (Con and Use) Regs 1986 and a plethora of EEC Regs. For this reason I only offer that summary having no time to spend long hours in EEC Regs.
If you go to
http://www.tinyurl.com/38ojga
you can read and get an idea from the Northern Ireland Con and Use Regs that mirror those of England. Go to Reg 74.
The penalty for breach of emission regs is £1,000 fine (cars) £2,500 (Goods vehicles)- no points (Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988)
As to the Insurance, they are a money making business, and if they find out that you have done something that you should informed them of (modification etc)then if they cover any claim against or by on your Insurance then they will use this as a lever to reclaim their money back.
Someone like Nodger may elaborate.
dvd
Dwight VanDriver said:
Wow - you don't ask for much.
Well, I looked for a decat "faq" but couldn't find one online. So I figured that if I asked all the questions in one thread this will hopefully become an FAQ once we have reliable answers to all questions! If we can get definative answers once and for all then people can stop wondering about this "grey area" and people can be directed to this thread when the topic comes up in future.herewego said:
EU_Foreigner said:
The first assumption is wrong really. MOT only meassures CO for the emission test, and a CAT does not alter these values so there would be no reason for the car to fail the MOT.
I thought the CAT converted CO to CO2?http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_730.htm
EU_F is right, CO is part of the test.
motuk said:
The catalyst test is part of the MOT test for most class IV spark ignition petrol engined passenger cars with four or more wheels first used on and after 1 August 1992.
Carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbons (HC) and lambda (~) are checked at fast idle speed and carbon monoxide (CO) is checked again at idle speed.
But per this url:Carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbons (HC) and lambda (~) are checked at fast idle speed and carbon monoxide (CO) is checked again at idle speed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter
Wikipedia said:
"A three-way catalytic converter has three simultaneous tasks:
Reduction of nitrogen oxides to nitrogen and oxygen: 2NOx into xO2 + N2
Oxidation of carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide: 2CO + O2 into 2CO2
Oxidation of unburnt hydrocarbons (HC) to carbon dioxide and water: 2CxHy + (2x+y/2)O2 into 2xCO2 + yH2O"
"A two-way catalytic converter has two simultaneous tasks:
Oxidation of carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide: 2CO + O2 into 2CO2
Oxidation of unburnt hydrocarbons (unburnt and partially-burnt fuel) to carbon dioxide and water: 2CxHy + (2x+y/2)O2 into 2xCO2 + yH2O"
A CAT does alter the amount of CO produced, and so a car may pass with a cAT but fail without a CAT.Reduction of nitrogen oxides to nitrogen and oxygen: 2NOx into xO2 + N2
Oxidation of carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide: 2CO + O2 into 2CO2
Oxidation of unburnt hydrocarbons (HC) to carbon dioxide and water: 2CxHy + (2x+y/2)O2 into 2xCO2 + yH2O"
"A two-way catalytic converter has two simultaneous tasks:
Oxidation of carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide: 2CO + O2 into 2CO2
Oxidation of unburnt hydrocarbons (unburnt and partially-burnt fuel) to carbon dioxide and water: 2CxHy + (2x+y/2)O2 into 2xCO2 + yH2O"
(We all know some cars will fail an emissions test even with a CAT, and that some cars can pass an emissions test without one. Hence the assumption in the original post: Assume the car IN QUESTION would "pass with and fail without".)
Sheriff JWPepper said:
I would think the chances of getting pulled up by the police for not having a cat are nil. Having said that why would you want to?
The reason for removing a CAT is that on turbo charged cars the less resistance in the exhaust system, the more power the engine car can develop. The CAT is a honeycomb and replacement with a straight through pipe in this section will reduce resistance (aka back pressure) and allow the turbo to spool up faster. On a 300bhp turbo 4 pot a decat can add in the region of 20bhp+. On some cars (eg Evo) the CAT is flanged each end making the removal and replacement by decat pipe a very simple, cheap and therefore (in bhp/£ terms) a cost effective way to start adding power.Anyhow, for the purpose of this thread lets assume someone thinks this is a good idea and has fitted a decat.
On potential worry of being "pulled": Yes, I am inclined to agree that if you were driving along doing nothing wrong then the chances of being stopped at random for a test are close to nil. However, as mentioned this is a very common mod on certain types of car. So the worry would be if police decided descend on a car meet and test all the cars there for known common mods:
- Illegal window tints (too dark forward of A pillar)
- Illegal lights (wrong colours/wrong places)
- Illegal exhausts?
Given that on some cars the decat is a common mod, if it were illegal to decat for some reason then coming across a car park full of such cars may just prompt police to test them all. The chances of a car there having a decat are significantly above just pulling cars at random on the street.
herewego said:
Is there anyone here from an insurance Co.? If a customer informed you that they had removed the CAT, would you say "OK" or would you say "then it no longer complies with C&U and we will not provide cover"?
That's an interesting question, becasue I know lots of people who have decat and have declared it correctly to their insurer. The insurer simply asked for a bit more money on the premium. HOWEVER, I'm not sure whether the fact they've accepted more money off you means that they won't use it as an excuse to not payout.An excuse they can't use: You didn't tell us, therefore we didn't have all the info on the level of risk we were insuring.
An excuse they could(?) use: Your car doesn't comply with C&U and therefore is not roadworthy, therefore insurance is invalidated. (But as stated in the OP, there are two seperate questions here: 1. Does decat contraveen C&U or anything else? 2. Does contraveening C&U invalidate insurance?)
Edited by mrmr96 on Sunday 9th March 10:45
Sheriff JWPepper said:
If you were caught (subject to DVD's post) then you would most likely be issued with a VDRS form and would have to get the vehicle MOT'd. As far as an MOT goes I thought that if a car had a cat when new then it had to have one for an MOT, (not 100%).
VDRS = Vehicle Defect Rectification Scheme. In a nutshell get problem fixed asap and then you have 14 days to get the vehicle to a MOT station, form endorsed and returned to police station, failure will result in a summons.
So if you get a VDRS and comply with it, is there a smaller fine?VDRS = Vehicle Defect Rectification Scheme. In a nutshell get problem fixed asap and then you have 14 days to get the vehicle to a MOT station, form endorsed and returned to police station, failure will result in a summons.
Edited by Sheriff JWPepper on Sunday 9th March 10:47
I presume that the £1,000 would involve going to court? But you'll always get the chance of a VDRS before court? (Unless it is, prehaps, the third time you're caught with the same fault and they
police will take dim view of you complying with VDRS and then removing the cat again straight after each time.)
Sheriff JWPepper said:
If you were caught (subject to DVD's post) then you would most likely be issued with a VDRS form and would have to get the vehicle MOT'd. As far as an MOT goes I thought that if a car had a cat when new then it had to have one for an MOT, (not 100%).
VDRS = Vehicle Defect Rectification Scheme. In a nutshell get problem fixed asap and then you have 14 days to get the vehicle to a MOT station, form endorsed and returned to police station, failure will result in a summons.
Worth reading this thread on the guy convicted of having a defective tyre despite having had an MoT test done after being issued a prohibition order.VDRS = Vehicle Defect Rectification Scheme. In a nutshell get problem fixed asap and then you have 14 days to get the vehicle to a MOT station, form endorsed and returned to police station, failure will result in a summons.
Unless someone can quote the opposite, as stated earlier, there is no offence of using a vehicle on a road without a CAT fitted.
There is therefor no grounds for issuing a VDRS in connection with this.
One can get caught on the emmision aspect. VOSA/Police/Local Authorities have the power to set up and run, by use of a device, road side emmision checks and any one found wanting can either be dealt with by summons for contravention of Reg 61 Con and Use or given a Fixed Penalty Notice under Road Traffic ( Veh Emmision, FP, England) Regs 2001 - (similar applies Scotland).
More information at
http://tinyurl.com/2tcwpj
http://tinyurl.com/3c6z88
dvd
There is therefor no grounds for issuing a VDRS in connection with this.
One can get caught on the emmision aspect. VOSA/Police/Local Authorities have the power to set up and run, by use of a device, road side emmision checks and any one found wanting can either be dealt with by summons for contravention of Reg 61 Con and Use or given a Fixed Penalty Notice under Road Traffic ( Veh Emmision, FP, England) Regs 2001 - (similar applies Scotland).
More information at
http://tinyurl.com/2tcwpj
http://tinyurl.com/3c6z88
dvd
Thanks for the info guys, I think it's reasonably clear where we stand in terms of legal/police/punishment.
Still need to clear up the insurance issue though:
One of the conditions of my insurance policy is that you keep the car "roadworthy" but the policy bookley doesn't define what it means by "roadworthy".
As noted by others above you can be pulled in a decatted car for breaking emissions regulations. (You'll get a £60 fine and no points, and fine drops to £30 if you get the car fixed and pay fine within 14 days.)
So my last big question is, assuming the car doesn't comply with emissions regs, could the insurance company refuse to pay out because on that basis the car isn't "roadworthy"?
Also, has anyone had a decat which has been declared and then had to make a claim? Was it an issue at all? (Please advise which company you're with.)
Cheers.
Still need to clear up the insurance issue though:
One of the conditions of my insurance policy is that you keep the car "roadworthy" but the policy bookley doesn't define what it means by "roadworthy".
As noted by others above you can be pulled in a decatted car for breaking emissions regulations. (You'll get a £60 fine and no points, and fine drops to £30 if you get the car fixed and pay fine within 14 days.)
So my last big question is, assuming the car doesn't comply with emissions regs, could the insurance company refuse to pay out because on that basis the car isn't "roadworthy"?
Also, has anyone had a decat which has been declared and then had to make a claim? Was it an issue at all? (Please advise which company you're with.)
Cheers.
Note - the above post was mine but PH glitched a bit when asking me to login so my name doesn't appear next to it.
Edited by mrmr96 on Friday 14th March 22:16
mrmr96, I know what you mean, a decat is essential on the Jap (twin) turbo cars! So much more power for such a little tweak, but obviously fueling needs sorting too to match the extra boost pressure (calorific value).
The whole insurance thing is interesting, I've always declared I have a decat pipe fitted to my insurers and they never ask any further questions. I've never claimed on my insurance so I can't answer further.
The whole insurance thing is interesting, I've always declared I have a decat pipe fitted to my insurers and they never ask any further questions. I've never claimed on my insurance so I can't answer further.
From what stated does not invalidate Insurance.
Section 148 (2) (b) Road Traffic Act 1988 says so.
They have to pay out third party BUT dependent what is in the policy they may take action to reclaim certain mines they have paid out.
Same as the common misconception that because a MOT has expired then so does the Insurance.
dvd
Section 148 (2) (b) Road Traffic Act 1988 says so.
They have to pay out third party BUT dependent what is in the policy they may take action to reclaim certain mines they have paid out.
Same as the common misconception that because a MOT has expired then so does the Insurance.
dvd
Dwight VanDriver said:
From what stated does not invalidate Insurance.
Section 148 (2) (b) Road Traffic Act 1988 says so.
They have to pay out third party BUT dependent what is in the policy they may take action to reclaim certain mines they have paid out.
Same as the common misconception that because a MOT has expired then so does the Insurance.
dvd
DVD, I've had a quick google and can't find that "section", are you able to link to it or post it here? Can you pleae elaborate on why the decat would not invalidate insurance?Section 148 (2) (b) Road Traffic Act 1988 says so.
They have to pay out third party BUT dependent what is in the policy they may take action to reclaim certain mines they have paid out.
Same as the common misconception that because a MOT has expired then so does the Insurance.
dvd
RE the "MOT" misconception, I had believed that you needed a valid MOT for insurance to be valid, is that really not the case? If it is the case then I presume that insurance is still valid because the piece of paper expiring doesn't necessarily make the car unroadworthy?
mrmr96 said:
DVD, I've had a quick google and can't find that "section", are you able to link to it or post it here?
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1988/ukpga_19880052_en_12#pt6-pb1-l1g148Bear in mind the acts shown on the OPSI website are of the act as published, so any changes in the legislation arising from later acts aren't reflected in it (I don't know if there are any for this particular bit of legislation, not at work so can't compare against the Police National Legal Database).
AndyRw said:
mrmr96 said:
DVD, I've had a quick google and can't find that "section", are you able to link to it or post it here?
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1988/ukpga_19880052_en_12#pt6-pb1-l1g148Bear in mind the acts shown on the OPSI website are of the act as published, so any changes in the legislation arising from later acts aren't reflected in it (I don't know if there are any for this particular bit of legislation, not at work so can't compare against the Police National Legal Database).
I think the next step will be for me to write to my insurer and have them confirm that it's "ok". I'll quote this section to them to pre-empt their expected initial response(!) (I think a written response from them would be more a considered answer than that which I would obtain from their call centre operatives.) I'll post back when I have more news.
Cheers
PS: Thanks to all of you who've contributed so far, esp to the BiB.
Section 148 RTA 88 since inception has not been amended as far as condition of vehicle is concerned and remains as quoted
http://www.tinyurl.com/bu37
dvd
http://www.tinyurl.com/bu37
dvd
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