Driving as an art form.............
Discussion
I'm aware of some drivers who consider driving as an art form. So they speak of fluidity, balance, poise and all those things.
But what if in trying to achieve such perfection, mistakes occur which lead to collisions. Does this mean that the constant strive for perfection on every turn, overtake, hazard, etc. is misplaced and menas that the basics are being ignored?
Obviously, even the best drivers make mistakes.
If collisions are occuring, what does this tell us?
But what if in trying to achieve such perfection, mistakes occur which lead to collisions. Does this mean that the constant strive for perfection on every turn, overtake, hazard, etc. is misplaced and menas that the basics are being ignored?
Obviously, even the best drivers make mistakes.
If collisions are occuring, what does this tell us?
ipsg.glf said:
I'm aware of some drivers who consider driving as an art form. So they speak of fluidity, balance, poise and all those things.
But what if in trying to achieve such perfection, mistakes occur which lead to collisions. Does this mean that the constant strive for perfection on every turn, overtake, hazard, etc. is misplaced and menas that the basics are being ignored?
Obviously, even the best drivers make mistakes.
If collisions are occuring, what does this tell us?
Some collisions you are involved in may be entirely non fault as far as you are concerned. You can try to eliminate the risks as much as possible but some are not reasonably foreseeable. But what if in trying to achieve such perfection, mistakes occur which lead to collisions. Does this mean that the constant strive for perfection on every turn, overtake, hazard, etc. is misplaced and menas that the basics are being ignored?
Obviously, even the best drivers make mistakes.
If collisions are occuring, what does this tell us?
Any learning process involves conscious effort. Things that you don't know how to do, or previously did unconsciously, have to be thought about. There's a risk associated with this learning process, and it's as well to acknowledge the risk so that you can mitigate it through choosing when and where to practice.
I'd suggest that the end goal, be it perfection or competence, is not really material.
I'd suggest that the end goal, be it perfection or competence, is not really material.
vonhosen said:
ipsg.glf said:
I'm aware of some drivers who consider driving as an art form. So they speak of fluidity, balance, poise and all those things.
But what if in trying to achieve such perfection, mistakes occur which lead to collisions. Does this mean that the constant strive for perfection on every turn, overtake, hazard, etc. is misplaced and menas that the basics are being ignored?
Obviously, even the best drivers make mistakes.
If collisions are occuring, what does this tell us?
Some collisions you are involved in may be entirely non fault as far as you are concerned. You can try to eliminate the risks as much as possible but some are not reasonably foreseeable. But what if in trying to achieve such perfection, mistakes occur which lead to collisions. Does this mean that the constant strive for perfection on every turn, overtake, hazard, etc. is misplaced and menas that the basics are being ignored?
Obviously, even the best drivers make mistakes.
If collisions are occuring, what does this tell us?
I realy meant at-fault collisions.
Mistakes happen. It is not about "forgetting the basics", just simply that s
t happens and moments of crap judgement befall even the most highly skilled/experienced drivers from time to time.
The hallmark of a good driver is one who can identify their own mistakes and learn from it. Having an at-fault car accident is one of these mistakes, that can be learnt from.
t happens and moments of crap judgement befall even the most highly skilled/experienced drivers from time to time. The hallmark of a good driver is one who can identify their own mistakes and learn from it. Having an at-fault car accident is one of these mistakes, that can be learnt from.
Just to add: if one is conciously(sp?) trying to better themselves, constantly striving to be better; then they will improve, in time.
Sometimes, when someone tries to conciously tackle a large task, doing something otherwise alien to them - i.e. flicking through Roadcraft then hitting the roads trying their newly aquired "skills" out - can lead to them being so pre-occupied with trying to drive "advanced" that they can sometimes forget the fundimental basics of driving.
This is more a case of drivers trying to do/learn/practice too much, too soon. Learning is a slow process. Which is what I said to my 18 year old neighbour who stacked his otherwise lovely Pug 206 whilst trying to heel-n-toe. He understood the basics, but was trying to achieve too much, too quickly.
Advanced driving is like learning to walk, again. It is best to take it in small chunks, small steps. Master one aspect, then move on to another aspect. Only once you have sufficient experience/training in all aspects of advanced driving will it all "come together".
When I taught my kids to drive, I told them to concentrate on improving their vision before worrying about things like brake/gear seperation etc.
Sometimes, when someone tries to conciously tackle a large task, doing something otherwise alien to them - i.e. flicking through Roadcraft then hitting the roads trying their newly aquired "skills" out - can lead to them being so pre-occupied with trying to drive "advanced" that they can sometimes forget the fundimental basics of driving.
This is more a case of drivers trying to do/learn/practice too much, too soon. Learning is a slow process. Which is what I said to my 18 year old neighbour who stacked his otherwise lovely Pug 206 whilst trying to heel-n-toe. He understood the basics, but was trying to achieve too much, too quickly.
Advanced driving is like learning to walk, again. It is best to take it in small chunks, small steps. Master one aspect, then move on to another aspect. Only once you have sufficient experience/training in all aspects of advanced driving will it all "come together".
When I taught my kids to drive, I told them to concentrate on improving their vision before worrying about things like brake/gear seperation etc.
Learning an activity that requires multi tasking can be a bit like juggling balls. You may find that trying to introduce a new ball or investing a large portion of your concentration on one in particular causes you to drop balls that you thought you had previously mastered or had no problem dealing with.
As a lowly Observer with the IAM, I sometimes wonder why I wait for my Associates in Tesco car parks...can I help them? If so, how? What will I look for? Will he be a plonker..or a better driver than me (happens)...so then what...teach him, the System?
If he is good, encourage him to go for RoSPA?
Can I encourage him to do the Observers course and maybe keep the ball in the air...pass on his experience to someone else?
Is he at the level where I should print and copy to him some notes that I have in my toolbox to help him? (with permission from the author to use!...Thanks Von...)
""The "systems" we use will always have the allegation of rigidness thrown at them. Any system will. I prefer instead to look at why we have it & does it give positive benefits. Remember who it was developed for & why.
It is a system that provides us with a fail safe way to deal with an unpredicatble environment leaving nothing to chance. It was brought in to remove blameworthy collisions & avoid most that could be down to others.
A lot of the teachings can seem very rigid and anal, but they are about providing consistancy & are not rigid just out of dogma. Under pressure we revert to type & do what comes natural. That may not always be safe. What we are infact teaching in the intial stages of instruction is muscle memory actions for the inputs. Ways of doing things that will never compromise you however many times you do it. In otherwords totally consistant in their application whether travelling at high speed or low. It is about finding one simple way that can be used consistantly in all situations to achieve a safe purpose. There may be times that fixed input is best, there may be times rotational is best, there may be times that pull/push is best. This gives you choice & the most talented can make use of those choices & implement them easily without compromising safety. But where we are teaching, because it isn't always with the very talented, we need to provide them with simple rules & choose a way that they can do consistantly well & will be easy for all to remember & implement. As with your biker, choice can breed confusion particularly under stress. Sometimes as well, those that think they are the very talented & can make the choices "on the hoof" so to speak, reveal under pressure that they then don't & something suffers.
As an example in this gear grip is another area that people talk about Police teachings being anal. Not having the palm on top of the gear lever, but for 1st & 2nd thumb down, 3 ,4 & 5 thumb up. Now most of the time it's not going to affect people & I've seen people on courses, otherwise decent drivers who don't pay attention to detail like this. All they do is increase the chances of getting 3rd by mistake when selecting 1st gear, by trying to push forward & left at the same time instead of working against the spring resistance first sideways until you can go no further & then pushing forward to hit first. They don't miss the 1st gear time & again so don't see fault in their basic approach & in the main they have the time to be consistant with it. However in a purusit exercise they come up to a "T" junction , the other car is out & gone, whilst under pressure they check right & assess it is safe for them to get out infront of that vehicle approaching even though it is moving quite quickly & they were right. If they had got 1st gear instead of 3rd ! Under pressure they make a safety mistake because of basics not done correctly. When they ask why they failed their test, the answer is gear grip, but not because of it, but because what it led to. Something so easy & preventable can elad to tragedy. Something that wouldn't have happened if they had followed the muscle memory teachings that are designed to eliminate that very occurence. Now people will say that they don't pursue which is true, but if they still adopt that approach & learn to do it that way because it is the most pure for consistancy they can gain from it's security.
This is true of the steering actions as well, we do what we do for simplicity, consistancy & the safety they provide, it may not be the fastest way, but that is not what we are primarily about. Save that for places that are more speed orientated.
When students first start off they they are given these simple rules for steering, braking, gears & acceleration. They are given from experience, uncomplicated ways that will serve them best in the role that they are to perform. Ways that they can consistantly apply their inputs to the vehicle so that safety, the system & smoothness can be applied and under pressure they will be able to maintain that. Because of the way they have done things in the past that change maybe be painful for them, but if they are to remain consistant under pressure it may be necessary. So many times I've heard people say it's b******s that's not easier & then them get it wrong at a crucial time because they didn't do it that way. It's note asier initially for them because it means change & not what comes naturally, but naturally isn't always best for purpose. You've got to work to make best for purpose become the natural way to do it.
To start with these simple vehicle inputs require a lot of thought & brain power to do well. As they become more & more the norm you need less & less so that by the end you should be able to do all the psycho-motor (doing input skills) without it requiring much brain power at all & they will be always safe , consistant & smooth. As they are now essentially muscle memory in the way the are applied & are performed subconsciously that frees the brain up to deal with the observation, anticipation & planning safe in the knowledge that you will always get the basics right."
Art or science?
Did the wife say pick up mushrooms or Andrex at Tesco?
Oh Fick it...I think I taught this punter something today...maybe learned from it...get the mushrooms and the Andrex!
BOF.
If he is good, encourage him to go for RoSPA?
Can I encourage him to do the Observers course and maybe keep the ball in the air...pass on his experience to someone else?
Is he at the level where I should print and copy to him some notes that I have in my toolbox to help him? (with permission from the author to use!...Thanks Von...)
""The "systems" we use will always have the allegation of rigidness thrown at them. Any system will. I prefer instead to look at why we have it & does it give positive benefits. Remember who it was developed for & why.
It is a system that provides us with a fail safe way to deal with an unpredicatble environment leaving nothing to chance. It was brought in to remove blameworthy collisions & avoid most that could be down to others.
A lot of the teachings can seem very rigid and anal, but they are about providing consistancy & are not rigid just out of dogma. Under pressure we revert to type & do what comes natural. That may not always be safe. What we are infact teaching in the intial stages of instruction is muscle memory actions for the inputs. Ways of doing things that will never compromise you however many times you do it. In otherwords totally consistant in their application whether travelling at high speed or low. It is about finding one simple way that can be used consistantly in all situations to achieve a safe purpose. There may be times that fixed input is best, there may be times rotational is best, there may be times that pull/push is best. This gives you choice & the most talented can make use of those choices & implement them easily without compromising safety. But where we are teaching, because it isn't always with the very talented, we need to provide them with simple rules & choose a way that they can do consistantly well & will be easy for all to remember & implement. As with your biker, choice can breed confusion particularly under stress. Sometimes as well, those that think they are the very talented & can make the choices "on the hoof" so to speak, reveal under pressure that they then don't & something suffers.
As an example in this gear grip is another area that people talk about Police teachings being anal. Not having the palm on top of the gear lever, but for 1st & 2nd thumb down, 3 ,4 & 5 thumb up. Now most of the time it's not going to affect people & I've seen people on courses, otherwise decent drivers who don't pay attention to detail like this. All they do is increase the chances of getting 3rd by mistake when selecting 1st gear, by trying to push forward & left at the same time instead of working against the spring resistance first sideways until you can go no further & then pushing forward to hit first. They don't miss the 1st gear time & again so don't see fault in their basic approach & in the main they have the time to be consistant with it. However in a purusit exercise they come up to a "T" junction , the other car is out & gone, whilst under pressure they check right & assess it is safe for them to get out infront of that vehicle approaching even though it is moving quite quickly & they were right. If they had got 1st gear instead of 3rd ! Under pressure they make a safety mistake because of basics not done correctly. When they ask why they failed their test, the answer is gear grip, but not because of it, but because what it led to. Something so easy & preventable can elad to tragedy. Something that wouldn't have happened if they had followed the muscle memory teachings that are designed to eliminate that very occurence. Now people will say that they don't pursue which is true, but if they still adopt that approach & learn to do it that way because it is the most pure for consistancy they can gain from it's security.
This is true of the steering actions as well, we do what we do for simplicity, consistancy & the safety they provide, it may not be the fastest way, but that is not what we are primarily about. Save that for places that are more speed orientated.
When students first start off they they are given these simple rules for steering, braking, gears & acceleration. They are given from experience, uncomplicated ways that will serve them best in the role that they are to perform. Ways that they can consistantly apply their inputs to the vehicle so that safety, the system & smoothness can be applied and under pressure they will be able to maintain that. Because of the way they have done things in the past that change maybe be painful for them, but if they are to remain consistant under pressure it may be necessary. So many times I've heard people say it's b******s that's not easier & then them get it wrong at a crucial time because they didn't do it that way. It's note asier initially for them because it means change & not what comes naturally, but naturally isn't always best for purpose. You've got to work to make best for purpose become the natural way to do it.
To start with these simple vehicle inputs require a lot of thought & brain power to do well. As they become more & more the norm you need less & less so that by the end you should be able to do all the psycho-motor (doing input skills) without it requiring much brain power at all & they will be always safe , consistant & smooth. As they are now essentially muscle memory in the way the are applied & are performed subconsciously that frees the brain up to deal with the observation, anticipation & planning safe in the knowledge that you will always get the basics right."
Art or science?
Did the wife say pick up mushrooms or Andrex at Tesco?
Oh Fick it...I think I taught this punter something today...maybe learned from it...get the mushrooms and the Andrex!
BOF.
ipsg.glf said:
I'm aware of some drivers who consider driving as an art form. So they speak of fluidity, balance, poise and all those things.
But what if in trying to achieve such perfection, mistakes occur which lead to collisions. Does this mean that the constant strive for perfection on every turn, overtake, hazard, etc. is misplaced and menas that the basics are being ignored?
Obviously, even the best drivers make mistakes.
If collisions are occuring, what does this tell us?
I suspect I may be the sort of driver ipsg is talking about. I don't use that sort of language - art form, etc. But I do pursue recreational road driving as a hobby, generally on the sort of rural roads which are the most dangerous measured in terms of KSI per mile travelled, and I try to raise my driving to the highest standard I can achieve.But what if in trying to achieve such perfection, mistakes occur which lead to collisions. Does this mean that the constant strive for perfection on every turn, overtake, hazard, etc. is misplaced and menas that the basics are being ignored?
Obviously, even the best drivers make mistakes.
If collisions are occuring, what does this tell us?
In my case, I had a very poor accident record in my first 4 years of driving. Thereafter, I took training, and stopped crashing. I cannot seperate the improvement in my safety between growing up, acquiring skills, and improving my attitude to safety and responsibility.
Overall, I am completely confident that I have gained more in safety by my obsessional enthusiasm for driving than I have given away by doing more of it, and particularly on 'dangerous roads', for recreation. I would be even safer still if I now stopped driving for recreation, but I consider that my recreational road driving is pretty safe as recreations go.
I believe that some research suggests that greater skills do not improve safety without improved attitude. (I remember the 'Road Rage' TV program where Dr Lisa Dorn of Cranfield University, a specialist in driver psychology, addressed entirely the attitudinal aspect). Generally, an IAM type programme develops both skills and an appropriate attitude to safety. I am more, but not very, concerned about the popularity of track training and the use of skid pans with a focus on handling skills unrelated to attitude or roadcraft. I like the idea of 'Using superior judgement to avoid the need for superior skills'.
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