Hot Start Problem

[gilesw]

I have what I believe to be the classic "Hot Start Problem", ie from time to time the car won't start at annoyingly inopportune times. Usually on petrol station forecourts just after i've filled up.

I bought and fitted the hot start mod from David Beer at modwise (with help from andy-w) and this seemed to do the job (after a few problems fitting it).

A couple of weeks later I got the problem again, ie the car wouldn't start in B&Q car park after i'd popped in for 15 mins. After an hour of messing about I called the AA. They came out and reckoned that the relay on the hot start mod had power going to it but it wasn't working. They diagnosed a faulty relay and bi-passed the mod which seemed to do the job.

I spoke to modwise and they kindly sent out a replacement mod, which I fitted and it worked fine for a week or 2, until this morning. The usual thing happened. Stopped for fuel at a petrol station in Guisborough. Got back in the car and it wouldn't start. Rather amusingly, as a fellow customer was helping me push it off the forecourt, a guy drove past in a "Drivestyle" courtesy car. He stopped, wound down the window, pointed at the logo on the drivers door and shouted across, "Aye - mine's in the f*#king garage an' all!". It did make me laugh... Eventually.

I'd connected the mod up with solderless connectors, and had a spare bit of cable with the relevant attachments on it with me, so removed the mod and bi-passed it. Still wouldn't start. Eventually, after about 20 mins of sitting there trying to turn it over every once in a while, it started, as it usually does. So - it does sound like the hot-start issue I think, but it wasn't fixed by the hot start mod. If it was a bad connection, how come it just started on the 89th turn of the key without me having touched anything in the previous 10 mins or so...

What does it sound like to everyone else? Hot start, dodgy connection, something else? I spoke to a guy at the "Sports and Specialist Car Company" at Boroughbridge who had his own method of fixing the issue without using the mod... Might give him a call tomorrow...

[im]

See my recent thread here: http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...

It turned out to be the cars factory fitted immobiliser. Carl Baker fixed the 'hot start' problem by replacing it.

Having fitted the hot-start kit and the problem re-surfacing shortly afterwards I was told that on a car 10 or 11 years old (mines '97) it is usually this component that fails. More than 1 person (inc TVR specialists) has told me this.

Do not assume that it is the hot-start problem which can be fixed for the price of the kit. If you do fit the kit and the problem doesn't go away still leave the kit fitted to help share the electrical load but then get someone to check the immobiliser.

Your symptoms are a classic sign of it.

Edited by im on Monday 24th March 13:36

[gilesw]

Ah - right, OK, that makes sense. Any idea what i'd have to pay to get my immobiliser replaced then?

cheers,
Giles.

[im]

Just looking at the invoice which reads:

'Supply & Install Metasystem M36/T2 Immobiliser, Clear the EPROM Memory & re-code into Alarm'

Total (inc VAT) £178.52

(This includes a £3.51 Credit Card charge)


Have gone from having your problem every bloody time I stopped to put petrol in to having no problem since.

HTH

Edited by im on Monday 24th March 15:43

[David Beer]

Get your money back from mod-wise. In a few cases, the solenoid has its contacts "worn" from a poor throw of the solenoid over the years of poor supply. The case history is so low on failure that they will refund the money, but the kit has to be returned as well.

[Timja]

im said:

See my recent thread here: http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...

It turned out to be the cars factory fitted immobiliser. Carl Baker fixed the 'hot start' problem by replacing it.

Having fitted the hot-start kit and the problem re-surfacing shortly afterwards I was told that on a car 10 or 11 years old (mines '97) it is usually this component that fails. More than 1 person (inc TVR specialists) has told me this.

Do not assume that it is the hot-start problem which can be fixed for the price of the kit. If you do fit the kit and the problem doesn't go away still leave the kit fitted to help share the electrical load but then get someone to check the immobiliser.

Your symptoms are a classic sign of it.

Edited by im on Monday 24th March 13:36

I had exactly the same experience as this. Car taken down to Carls, New Immobiliser fitted - Problem sorted and never happened since.

[cmr2payne]

I have had this on two chims now and both times it was the starter motor faulty. replaced and no further issues,

[gilesw]

OK - So that's 2 in favour of a replacement immobiliser, and 1 in favour of a replacement starter motor, although he's had this problem on 2 Chim's fixed this way... Hmm... Suppose I'll just have to try one and see if it fixes it.

[Pupp]

gilesw said:

OK - So that's 2 in favour of a replacement immobiliser, and 1 in favour of a replacement starter motor, although he's had this problem on 2 Chim's fixed this way... Hmm... Suppose I'll just have to try one and see if it fixes it.

Check whether there is +12v getting to the starter solenoid...if so, suspect the s/motor; if not, the immobiliser.

[spend]

Just take the starter circuit out of the immobilizer if you suspect it is at fault... The fuel pump... will still be protected

Starter motors were never designed to crank High Comp stroked engines - its hardly surprising they fail more frequently than on LR's (who even made several mods to keep them going relay/heat shielding even on the original beasts).

Dave

[gilesw]

OK - Have spoken to the guys at SSCCTVR (http://www.sscarco.co.uk) and the method they have of fixing this issue is to replace the faulty wire that overheats.

As stated on the Hot Start mod install page on chimaerapages.com:

"When you turn the key power is sent to the starter motor. However one of the wires in the chain isn't quite up to the job so in hot conditions the resistance in the wire builds to the point where insufficient power gets to the starter motor."

So the way they fix it is to replace the dodgy wire, which kind of makes sense. Has anyone else had this done? If it's as simple as that, why do people bother with the Hot Start kit at all? If the hot start kit didn't fix my problem, Is this likely to? etc etc...

[im]

gilesw said:

OK - Have spoken to the guys at SSCCTVR (http://www.sscarco.co.uk) and the method they have of fixing this issue is to replace the faulty wire that overheats.

As stated on the Hot Start mod install page on chimaerapages.com:

"When you turn the key power is sent to the starter motor. However one of the wires in the chain isn't quite up to the job so in hot conditions the resistance in the wire builds to the point where insufficient power gets to the starter motor."

So the way they fix it is to replace the dodgy wire, which kind of makes sense. Has anyone else had this done? If it's as simple as that, why do people bother with the Hot Start kit at all? If the hot start kit didn't fix my problem, Is this likely to? etc etc...

I think your geting confused...the Modwise 'Hot Start Kit' fixes exactly the problem your describing above. What I and others have said is that this isn't the only problem it might be, in fact for a car 10+ years old it could also be the Solenoid or (just as commonly) the Immobiliser.

The Hot Start Kit is easy to fit yourself and costs in the region of £20 but don't be surprised if that turns out not to cure your problem. You can test for the problem you describe above using the method (also) described above ie: check for current reaching the Solenoid or coming from the Immobiliser.

If it's getting past the Immobiliser but not reaching the Solenoid then its the wire that you've been told about (above).

Fit the kit anyway as it will stop any future hot-start (wire) problem.

Unfortunately most garages will tell you it's the 'wire resistence' but it aint always so...

[gilesw]

im said:

I think your geting confused...the Modwise 'Hot Start Kit' fixes exactly the problem your describing above. What I and others have said is that this isn't the only problem it might be, in fact for a car 10+ years old it could also be the Solenoid or (just as commonly) the Immobiliser.

Hi - No, I got that. My problem is that I called the garage this morning and they are convinced that it is the hot start problem (which indeed it does sound like. It always starts again, within about 20-30mins of sitting there cooling down) and that it would be fixed with a replacement of the wire and that I would be silly to just go replacing the immobiliser or starter motor without trying that first.

im said:

The Hot Start Kit is easy to fit yourself and costs in the region of £20 but don't be surprised if that turns out not to cure your problem.

Yep - As per my first post, I have fitted the hot start kit, had a replacement sent out as the 1st one was believed to be faulty, fitted the 2nd kit and still have the problem.

im said:

You can test for the problem you describe above using the method (also) described above ie: check for current reaching the Solenoid or coming from the Immobiliser. If it's getting past the Immobiliser but not reaching the Solenoid then its the wire that you've been told about (above).

Unfortunately, whenever it has happened there has never been anyone around to help test for current, and the likelihood of me being lucky enough for it to happen when it's actually in the garage with some around to check it out are slim.

im said:

Unfortunately most garages will tell you it's the 'wire resistence' but it aint always so...

It would be nice to have a consensus of opinion, but I'm probably going to have to try pot-luck from one of these 3:

a) Assume it is the hot start problem but that neither of the 2 hot start kits I fitted fixed the problem and get the wire replaced as recommended by the garage. They don't seem to believe the kit is a suitable fix for the problem.
b) Get the Immobiliser replaced.
c) Get the Starter motor replaced.

cheers,
Giles.

[Steve_T]

Hot start kits may just be treating the symptoms and not the cause. Dave Lewis told me that his hot starting problem was caused by the near air tight fit of the components of the starter solenoid. He rubbed down the rod in the middle of the solenoid used to make the circuit and reassembled and hasn't had any problems since. I wouldn't rush to replace the immobiliser or starter on a hunch. Get in touch with Dave first.

Steve.

[cmr2payne]

As i said on my last chim and on my current one it wouldnt start when hot. leave it 15 to 20 mins and it would start away, Tried the mod wise kit didn't fix it, had the starter replace and hey presto it worked correctly, after having this on two chims now thats the first place I would look personally.

[Steve_T]

I don't recall, but does the starter have the solenoid built in?

[David Beer]

There is no need to replace the cable to the solenoid, thats good. On the kit put a test lamp to the thin red wire, if doesnt illuminate then the problem is immobiliser. Also worth tightening the spade connector on the solenoid. Give me a ring and i will tell you how to override the immobiliser just for testing.

[blujay10]

Had similar issues with irregular non starting - starter primed then nothing. Turns out it was the connector going into the Immobiliser. Cleaned all the contacts etc and seems to be ok again. One way to check the immobiliser is if your fuel pump primes and then nothing, leave the key turned fully and tap the underside of the passenger dashboard.(make sure you are in neutral...)If it starts then you probabley have an immobiliser issue. Mine would start every time like this. I am sure someone with much more technical knowledge will be along to explain this, but its quick and free to check! Good luck.

[gilesw]

OK - I'm beginning to think that maybe my problem might not be hot start related. The car hadn't been run for about 3 hours this afternoon and it wouldn't start. I decided to try by-passing the immobiliser as David Beer kindly described to me. I won't describe exactly how to do that here, but basically, when I touched the relevant wire to the relevant connection, it started turning over. It wouldn't actually start as the keys weren't in the ignition and I hadn't disabled the immobiliser, so the fuel pump hadn't kicked in. Disabled the immobiliser and touched the wire onto the connection on the kit and it started fine.

Does this narrow my problem down at all?

Sounds like its not the solenoid, as it had no trouble firing up several times when I bi-passed the immobiliser.

If the immobiliser is working to the degree that its stopping the fuel pump working, and then when I disable the immobiliser, the fuel pump kicked in, can it still be a problem there? Sounds like It could be very similar to the problem described by blujay above...

Any thoughts?

[David Beer]

I have just emailed you !!