Springs & Dampers help please.
Discussion
Well I've never been a big Avo shock fan, so think its time to look for a better option.
I've always been pleased with the performance of Nitron dampers on Caterham's but they don't appear to be too widely used on Radicals (except for Rob!) what are you all using & if you have changed to another option what are your opinions on the difference they make?
What sort of spring rates have you tried & what handling changes do going softer or harder bring?
Again other than Rob, anybody ditched the Nik link & just upped the spring rates to compensate?
Thanks!
I've always been pleased with the performance of Nitron dampers on Caterham's but they don't appear to be too widely used on Radicals (except for Rob!) what are you all using & if you have changed to another option what are your opinions on the difference they make?
What sort of spring rates have you tried & what handling changes do going softer or harder bring?
Again other than Rob, anybody ditched the Nik link & just upped the spring rates to compensate?
Thanks!
An very nice it was to, can I order a bacon butty for next time though 
I've currently settled on 500/700 however this was still to soft for Anglesey with its grippy surface. Personally I've found the stiffer the better (oo-er!!) so don't be afraid to try silly rates. Downside of loosing the ARB's is of course the car is to stiff for the wet so you might need to consider softer springs when it rains.
I've currently settled on 500/700 however this was still to soft for Anglesey with its grippy surface. Personally I've found the stiffer the better (oo-er!!) so don't be afraid to try silly rates. Downside of loosing the ARB's is of course the car is to stiff for the wet so you might need to consider softer springs when it rains.
Cheers Rob, if the wife is with me next time you may be in luck for a sarnie!
So considerably harder than the PR6 on the front then, they are listed in the book as a 300lb springs & 350lb on the rear with the Avo's.
If you put harder springs on the front & leave the rears alone you would expect more understeer wouldn't you? With these things is it still roughly true that the softer end will have the more grip?
Did you make any specific requests on the damping arrangement, did you send in your Avo's for them to put on their dyno to see where they were roughly?
So considerably harder than the PR6 on the front then, they are listed in the book as a 300lb springs & 350lb on the rear with the Avo's.
If you put harder springs on the front & leave the rears alone you would expect more understeer wouldn't you? With these things is it still roughly true that the softer end will have the more grip?
Did you make any specific requests on the damping arrangement, did you send in your Avo's for them to put on their dyno to see where they were roughly?
You are correct to assume they react the same as normal cars in that the softer end gives more grip. I usually run the front softer on the damping settings, I hate understeer with a passion so its pretty much completely dialed out on my car.
Other ways you could improve things is by adding more preload, but you'll need adjustable push rods to enable you to get the car back down to a decent ride height.
I supplied Nitron with all the data for working out the lenghts etc to ensure the front was zero droop and the rear had about 2" of droop. Guy then took the dimensions of the car i.e. weight, engine config etc and spring rates and worked out the valving from that. He offered a free re-valve service if I wasn't happy with the ones he fitted (he might still offer a similar service)
Other ways you could improve things is by adding more preload, but you'll need adjustable push rods to enable you to get the car back down to a decent ride height.
I supplied Nitron with all the data for working out the lenghts etc to ensure the front was zero droop and the rear had about 2" of droop. Guy then took the dimensions of the car i.e. weight, engine config etc and spring rates and worked out the valving from that. He offered a free re-valve service if I wasn't happy with the ones he fitted (he might still offer a similar service)
So what happens if you increase the spring rates in proportion both front & rear, apart from not handling the bumpy tracks so well, what would you expect with a Radical more or less grip, or as you alluded to earlier is it the more grip from the track the stiffer the springs you can run whilst showing an increase in overall grip?
What do you mean by zero droop, I have heard of it but don't know exactly what it means? Guessing it it means that the length of the spring/damper assembly is the same with the weight of the car on or off it, ie its preloaded to hold the static weight of the car without compressing?
What do you mean by zero droop, I have heard of it but don't know exactly what it means? Guessing it it means that the length of the spring/damper assembly is the same with the weight of the car on or off it, ie its preloaded to hold the static weight of the car without compressing?
Edited by dsl2 on Tuesday 20th May 20:31
Bert - in the case of Anglesey the car was handling like a wet fish in some corners making it hard to get the power down. My experience of these cars is to improve the grip I run them stiffer - this really shouldn't work like this but it seems to work (on my car at least). This is where the nik-link scores as you can increase the spring rate quickly by changing the diameter of the nik-link bar. Increasing preload can also help but at the expense of some feel. Not running the bar means more messing with spring rates.
Darren - if you've got half decent dampers you can run a lot stiffer springs with out compromising control over bumpy tracks etc. As mentioned above I've found the reverse to normal cars in that the stiffer the suspension the better the grip. When the car is too soft it oversteers everywhere. Of course you can tune the car on the damper settings alone but I don't like running the dampers too hard otherwise you start supporting the car on the dampers, not idea imho. Springs are cheap and relatively easy to change.
Zero droop referres to the amount of droop on the suspension when you jack the car up. This can be achieved the dirty way by using the spring seats on the dampers and the push rods. Or by getting the dampers made to the correct length so when the wheels are lifted off the ground they don't allow the suspension to droop. Never run zero drop on the rear, it will invoke snap oversteer, the rear needs droop to ensure the driven wheels are always in contact with the tarmac.
Darren - if you've got half decent dampers you can run a lot stiffer springs with out compromising control over bumpy tracks etc. As mentioned above I've found the reverse to normal cars in that the stiffer the suspension the better the grip. When the car is too soft it oversteers everywhere. Of course you can tune the car on the damper settings alone but I don't like running the dampers too hard otherwise you start supporting the car on the dampers, not idea imho. Springs are cheap and relatively easy to change.
Zero droop referres to the amount of droop on the suspension when you jack the car up. This can be achieved the dirty way by using the spring seats on the dampers and the push rods. Or by getting the dampers made to the correct length so when the wheels are lifted off the ground they don't allow the suspension to droop. Never run zero drop on the rear, it will invoke snap oversteer, the rear needs droop to ensure the driven wheels are always in contact with the tarmac.
Most informative Rob! So if I do go down the Nitron route think I will go up on the spring rate a little, however from previous experience with them they alway seem to be stiffer than other makes of the same nominal poundage I guess because of the way they are damped?
Did you consider the 3 way adjustables or is that just likely to be too many things to get lost / fiddle with!
So is the Nik link just an anti roll bar or something more complex?
Did you consider the 3 way adjustables or is that just likely to be too many things to get lost / fiddle with!
So is the Nik link just an anti roll bar or something more complex?
Better valved is what I'd call it 
Neil runs 3-ways on his SR3 and they are pretty easy to setup and fine tune once you have a base setting. I went for the singles because of budget.
Nik-link is basically a roll bar but it works on the damper and spring force directly. If you take the dampers off you can move the suspension and see how it works.
Neil runs 3-ways on his SR3 and they are pretty easy to setup and fine tune once you have a base setting. I went for the singles because of budget.Nik-link is basically a roll bar but it works on the damper and spring force directly. If you take the dampers off you can move the suspension and see how it works.
Just to throw a spnner in to the works... I ran my Prosport with 275 fronts and 500 rears. Lap times the same as Rob's It's all down to how you like your car set up and what suits your driving style, there is no way you can take someone else's set up and know it is the best one for you. The only real way is seat time and testing
Simon
www.tillingmotorsport.com
Simon
www.tillingmotorsport.com
Simon is correct, but then if his car only had 3 wheels he would still be putting fast laps in Simons car did have a front nik-link, standard ARB on the rear
Testing is the only way to get the car right for your driving, hopefully some of my experiences can help along the way.
Intrax, I've heard a few things about them
but not had any direct experience of them yet.
Bert - I've got a selection of springs up for sale
Simons car did have a front nik-link, standard ARB on the rearTesting is the only way to get the car right for your driving, hopefully some of my experiences can help along the way.
Intrax, I've heard a few things about them
but not had any direct experience of them yet.Bert - I've got a selection of springs up for sale
Edited by RobC on Wednesday 21st May 22:41
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