Knee down - safety
Discussion
OK then, from the 'chicken strips' thread, I'll ask a question of you ultra-experienced road riders here.
I'm a beginner when it comes to fast riding. What's the safest way to corner quickly - hanging off the bike to alter the centre of mass and keep the bike more upright, or sitting upright on the bike Mike Hailwood style and leaning the bike over more?
Obviously Hailwood style requires more countersteer to tip in, but I feel a lot more in control of the bike when it's vertical underneath me (even if I'm leaning 45 degrees round a corner), since my right arm is still in its normal position and I can control the throttle / brake a hell of a lot more smoothly than if I'm hanging off the bike and using the bars to hang on.
I'm almost certainly doing it wrong, but AFAIK big throttle or brake inputs in corners are even worse on a bike than a 205 GTi or Porsche 911, and it seems possible to me that hanging off the bike too far could reduce throttle control.
Noob question, for sure - but do the safety advantages of keeping the bike more upright and hanging off outweigh the potential risk of not having full control on the bars? I'm talking brisk road riding here (equal speed through a corner with both techniques), not trackday stuff.
I'm a beginner when it comes to fast riding. What's the safest way to corner quickly - hanging off the bike to alter the centre of mass and keep the bike more upright, or sitting upright on the bike Mike Hailwood style and leaning the bike over more?
Obviously Hailwood style requires more countersteer to tip in, but I feel a lot more in control of the bike when it's vertical underneath me (even if I'm leaning 45 degrees round a corner), since my right arm is still in its normal position and I can control the throttle / brake a hell of a lot more smoothly than if I'm hanging off the bike and using the bars to hang on.
I'm almost certainly doing it wrong, but AFAIK big throttle or brake inputs in corners are even worse on a bike than a 205 GTi or Porsche 911, and it seems possible to me that hanging off the bike too far could reduce throttle control.
Noob question, for sure - but do the safety advantages of keeping the bike more upright and hanging off outweigh the potential risk of not having full control on the bars? I'm talking brisk road riding here (equal speed through a corner with both techniques), not trackday stuff.
In my opinion the most critical thing is to look where you want to go, very closely after that it's important to be smooth and pretty much everything else is up to you.
Just to add that it strikes me that it's rare to have sufficient visibility around the corner to warrant the speeds required where the rest is that important. When it is I personally prefer to have one arse cheek off the inside side of the seat and also leaning forward and to the inside a bit. I can't imagine it helps in the slightest but it helps with my focus I guess
PS... I virtually always have some chicken strip left (although occasionally have reached the right edge) and have never got my knee down.
Just to add that it strikes me that it's rare to have sufficient visibility around the corner to warrant the speeds required where the rest is that important. When it is I personally prefer to have one arse cheek off the inside side of the seat and also leaning forward and to the inside a bit. I can't imagine it helps in the slightest but it helps with my focus I guess
PS... I virtually always have some chicken strip left (although occasionally have reached the right edge) and have never got my knee down.
Edited by dern on Wednesday 10th September 14:37
The reality is that, unless you are hanging off the bike like a gibbon, you should not be getting you’re knee down while riding on the road. Even then, by hanging off the bike, you are probably reducing your forward visibility around the bend and as such, are riding beyond what is safe. To get your knee down requires track style riding and track lines around bends ARE NOT SAFE when used on the road.
To take a road corner correctly you should stay as far to the outside of the bend (to the left side for right hand bends and visa versa) until you can clearly see both edges of the road after the exit to the bend. Only then do you start to ‘cut in’ to apex the bend but, by then, it’ll be too late in the bend to add enough speed to get your knee down.
To take a road corner correctly you should stay as far to the outside of the bend (to the left side for right hand bends and visa versa) until you can clearly see both edges of the road after the exit to the bend. Only then do you start to ‘cut in’ to apex the bend but, by then, it’ll be too late in the bend to add enough speed to get your knee down.
Edited by black-k1 on Wednesday 10th September 14:35
cyberface said:
OK then, from the 'chicken strips' thread, I'll ask a question of you ultra-experienced road riders here.
I'm a beginner when it comes to fast riding. What's the safest way to corner quickly - hanging off the bike to alter the centre of mass and keep the bike more upright, or sitting upright on the bike Mike Hailwood style and leaning the bike over more?
Obviously Hailwood style requires more countersteer to tip in, but I feel a lot more in control of the bike when it's vertical underneath me (even if I'm leaning 45 degrees round a corner), since my right arm is still in its normal position and I can control the throttle / brake a hell of a lot more smoothly than if I'm hanging off the bike and using the bars to hang on.
I'm almost certainly doing it wrong, but AFAIK big throttle or brake inputs in corners are even worse on a bike than a 205 GTi or Porsche 911, and it seems possible to me that hanging off the bike too far could reduce throttle control.
Noob question, for sure - but do the safety advantages of keeping the bike more upright and hanging off outweigh the potential risk of not having full control on the bars? I'm talking brisk road riding here (equal speed through a corner with both techniques), not trackday stuff.
I personally do not hang off my bike riding on the road and I wouldn't say I'm slow but equally not the fastest guy out there. IMHO hanging off and getting your knee down is for the track.I'm a beginner when it comes to fast riding. What's the safest way to corner quickly - hanging off the bike to alter the centre of mass and keep the bike more upright, or sitting upright on the bike Mike Hailwood style and leaning the bike over more?
Obviously Hailwood style requires more countersteer to tip in, but I feel a lot more in control of the bike when it's vertical underneath me (even if I'm leaning 45 degrees round a corner), since my right arm is still in its normal position and I can control the throttle / brake a hell of a lot more smoothly than if I'm hanging off the bike and using the bars to hang on.
I'm almost certainly doing it wrong, but AFAIK big throttle or brake inputs in corners are even worse on a bike than a 205 GTi or Porsche 911, and it seems possible to me that hanging off the bike too far could reduce throttle control.
Noob question, for sure - but do the safety advantages of keeping the bike more upright and hanging off outweigh the potential risk of not having full control on the bars? I'm talking brisk road riding here (equal speed through a corner with both techniques), not trackday stuff.
There are other ways to inprove your CoG with out hanging off e.g. just by dropping your appropriate shoulder in to the bend and getting head over towards the mirror you'll improve CoG. Riding on the road briskly but safely is all about observation, positioning your self for the surrounding hazards, smooth throttle control etc etc etc. If you want to make good progress on the road I would suggest doing some sort of advance IAM or ROSPA course or doing some advanced training with organisations such as Rapid Training http://www.rapidtraining.co.uk .
I went out for a bimble with a guy from camp, he passed same day as me, same bike but his is newer, twisty Highland roads.
He was attempting to hang off the seat to corner and actually holding me up!! I've been building up my cornering by concentrating on getting my lines right and being really slow but in the right place, then building on speed/confidence.
The more experience guys in the club have given me advice, watched my riding and let me follow them too.
A few times I've thought I'm probably close to scraping my toe, but I'd imagine getting my knee down would be far too much effort from where I am
He was attempting to hang off the seat to corner and actually holding me up!! I've been building up my cornering by concentrating on getting my lines right and being really slow but in the right place, then building on speed/confidence.
The more experience guys in the club have given me advice, watched my riding and let me follow them too.
A few times I've thought I'm probably close to scraping my toe, but I'd imagine getting my knee down would be far too much effort from where I am
i hang off the bike a bit when going quickly (for me). not a lot but about enough so that my outside leg is pressed against the bike & my shoulders are well over. my head ends up roughly inline with the inner grip.
i've found riding a fat heavy bike & being a relativly skinny git i need to move about a bit to get enough weight on the bars to push the damn thing into the turn. i've proved the weight thing as i know i dont hang off stroppy but she seems to lean further a lot of the time. as proved when overtook a poof on a gixxer up a twisty hill
dunno who was more surprised 
i've found riding a fat heavy bike & being a relativly skinny git i need to move about a bit to get enough weight on the bars to push the damn thing into the turn. i've proved the weight thing as i know i dont hang off stroppy but she seems to lean further a lot of the time. as proved when overtook a poof on a gixxer up a twisty hill
dunno who was more surprised I try not to hang off as I don't have knee sliders however I prefer to wait until the pegs have grounded then I know that's as far as it'll get.
I guess it can be risky going round a roundabout leant right over, I think it's difficult for other road users to determine your approach speed. A few times I've been right over and I've had to get out of it and on teh brakes sharpish.
Also and I noticed that if you are practicing on a roundabout, if you put constant load on one side of the tyres, putting a heavy load on the front going in and hard acceleration on the exit on a regular basis, say for 8 + laps you can feel the tyre heating up too much and in my case loosing grip! I was running sports touring tyres but I was amazed how much they went off when heated up to much and moving about....anybody else have this problem?
I guess it can be risky going round a roundabout leant right over, I think it's difficult for other road users to determine your approach speed. A few times I've been right over and I've had to get out of it and on teh brakes sharpish.
Also and I noticed that if you are practicing on a roundabout, if you put constant load on one side of the tyres, putting a heavy load on the front going in and hard acceleration on the exit on a regular basis, say for 8 + laps you can feel the tyre heating up too much and in my case loosing grip! I was running sports touring tyres but I was amazed how much they went off when heated up to much and moving about....anybody else have this problem?
When cornering fast, moving your body weight off the seat pushes the centre of gravity into the corner and by doing this allows the bike to remain more upright for a faster speed; thus on a larger contact patch.
When moving your weight from the centre line of the bike you should really be shifting in parallel with the centre line of the bike and all the weight should be held with your outside knee into the tank and using the foot pegs (weighting the outside peg).
At NO point should you be holding body weight through your arms! Regardless of whether your knee is scraping ono the floor, you should have no or little influence on the bars therefore freeing your arm/wrist/hand for throttle movements. You should only be using your arms to counter steer to get the bike turned-in.
I used to 'hang-off' when road riding (not like a rabid baboon) but to settle the bike in the corner with bigger contact patch. Eventually the lean angles were getting a little severe due to excessive corner speed; way too much for the road, and I had my knee down on most A and B road sweepers. This was due to bringing track skills on to the road as my confidence increased.
Sadly, the confidence and skill were too good for road/bike conditions and got beyond my control. I rode off the edge of a tyre, not suitable for my Blade, and had a high speed crash. On track, that would have scuffed a few panels and broke a brake lever. On the road, I hit Armco and it ripped the bike to bits. I walked away.
I am not saying 'don't do it'. Just don't push it too far. It really is a great feeling when it happens without effort and you are really relaxed, but my opinion now is that it really should be kept for the Track.
When moving your weight from the centre line of the bike you should really be shifting in parallel with the centre line of the bike and all the weight should be held with your outside knee into the tank and using the foot pegs (weighting the outside peg).
At NO point should you be holding body weight through your arms! Regardless of whether your knee is scraping ono the floor, you should have no or little influence on the bars therefore freeing your arm/wrist/hand for throttle movements. You should only be using your arms to counter steer to get the bike turned-in.
I used to 'hang-off' when road riding (not like a rabid baboon) but to settle the bike in the corner with bigger contact patch. Eventually the lean angles were getting a little severe due to excessive corner speed; way too much for the road, and I had my knee down on most A and B road sweepers. This was due to bringing track skills on to the road as my confidence increased.
Sadly, the confidence and skill were too good for road/bike conditions and got beyond my control. I rode off the edge of a tyre, not suitable for my Blade, and had a high speed crash. On track, that would have scuffed a few panels and broke a brake lever. On the road, I hit Armco and it ripped the bike to bits. I walked away.
I am not saying 'don't do it'. Just don't push it too far. It really is a great feeling when it happens without effort and you are really relaxed, but my opinion now is that it really should be kept for the Track.
Edited by veetwin on Thursday 11th September 09:11
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