Can somebody explaine sevenesque cars to me?
Discussion
So a sevenesque car is a clone of the original lotus 7 cars. The rights to build the 7 was sold to Caterham Cars but you can purchase a kit from many companies. If you would like to build it from scratch you buy the Locost book. They all follow the same lotus 7 space frame. Am I right?
You are wrong. 7 clones may look like a 7 but they are generally not the same shape or size and the chassis will be different in design. Some may argue that the caterham is the best, but I'm not so sure. there are some nice replicas out there and some awful ones you pays your money and takes your choice.
I think there has been so much litigation, development and divergence since the orignal 7 that the only common theme is the concept of a 4 wheel motorbike.
Many, many good versions to choose from.
Many years ago I was asked why I didn't have one and replied that I didn't get the point.....then I tried driving one.
Many, many good versions to choose from.
Many years ago I was asked why I didn't have one and replied that I didn't get the point.....then I tried driving one.
Caterhams are GENERALLY well built, as even in the starter kit the chassis is pre-pannelled and fuel lines ect. are pre-installed to Caterhams standards. If you buy a Caterham that has been inspected by the factory you can be assured is is safe. They do rust though like all other kits. They also to my mind, look the best by far, they are the original after all. But the MK Indy runs it close and is probobly the most visually close without being sued. And the GBS Zero looks like it is asking for a court case, probobly only its (ahem) heritage is saving its bacon as Caterham would be embarressed by comparing itself in court with a product with a £2.5k starter kit! BUT when it comes to driving, baring the R300,R400 and R500 which have very expensive components, they are not dynamically superior to many 7 clones. Pound for pound, BHP for BHP, a Raw Striker would probobly pull its pants down on a track. But Caterhams have a cult following and good residuals, no other 7 clone can offer that.
thescamper said:
best place to answer all 7 queries is HERE
So long as you want to hear that Locosts are wonderful. 
If you go to Blatchat (the Caterhams forum), you'll hear the complete opposite, and any other marque forum will have a strong bias toward their favoured manufacturer.
Personally, my opinion is that the 'book' Locost design is one of the less accomplished options left on the market and you need to tread very carefully, particularly if you are considering buying one second-hand. The original design is flawed and the build quality, particularly of home built or early 'manufactured' Locost chassis can be variable, to put it mildly.
When you say the original design do you mean one based around mark 2 escort parts? Basically I want a fun, fast, drivers car. I have the skill and the tools to build one, I really fancy the challenge of building one from scratch. But what the deciding factor is I've never been in one I don't really know what they're like. Would you consider a well built locost a fast, nice handling car?
As an ex-owner, my main memory was that they're noisy, cold, bumpy as hell, normally filled with rain water, have terrible fuel consumption and typically rust quite nicely.
On the plus side they give an adrenaline rush like no other car, mostly because sitting 1 inch above the ground in a car making a noise like thunder with the front wheel spinning right in front of you feels very dangerous!
On the plus side they give an adrenaline rush like no other car, mostly because sitting 1 inch above the ground in a car making a noise like thunder with the front wheel spinning right in front of you feels very dangerous!
Sam_68 said:
thescamper said:
best place to answer all 7 queries is HERE
So long as you want to hear that Locosts are wonderful. If you go to Blatchat (the Caterhams forum), you'll hear the complete opposite, and any other marque forum will have a strong bias toward their favoured manufacturer.
Personally, my opinion is that the 'book' Locost design is one of the less accomplished options left on the market and you need to tread very carefully, particularly if you are considering buying one second-hand. The original design is flawed and the build quality, particularly of home built or early 'manufactured' Locost chassis can be variable, to put it mildly.
And don't think the site is all about locosts, AFAIK every manufacturer is represented somewhere. As for build quality, that as ever, is up to the builder. It is quite possible to balls up a Caterham, just as it is possible to make a good locost, Mk Indy, MNR VortX, Westfield, Sylva, Leugo, Tiger, GTS (if the bits every arrive), MAC1 or Haynes Roadster. Same with all the smaller makes who I can't remember. The build quality, fit and finish is up to the builder. Have a read of either the old book, or the new Haynes version and decide for yourself if it's an option. You may decide you'd prefer to make every last part, and truly build your own car. You may want a Caterham meccano kit.
Everything in between is doable, depending upon time and budget. The original Locost was a very close copy of a Pre-Lit Westfield,however
The pre lit (as produced) only looked similar chassis wise,the tunnel area especially being totally different from the Caterham which had a stressed skin type of tunnel,whereas the Westfield had a tubular frame clad with alloy panels,which Caterham later adopted in their cars?
The GRP panels on a Pre-Lit were,apart from the nose cone,to all intents and purposes S3 Seven clones,which is why Caterham took such great exception and subsequently forced the now characteristic grooved profiles around Westfield arches and wings to be used (to avoid confusion!!!!).I am led to believe that both firms later copyrighted features of their products to safeguard their positions in an increasingly crowded marketplace.
Incidentally there was a rumour that Caterham only bought the rights to the Seven S4 from Lotus and did not own the rights to produce the S3 project at all,only spares. Don't know how true that is though!!
Regarding the traits of the various 7alikes,for handling only
a properly set-up live axle Mk2 Escort based Striker is IMHO the one to go for,however,for looks alone the Lotus S2/S3 must be very near the top of the list,but looks are subjective after all.
One factor to bear in mind is that the bits you see, ie wheels,suspension,exhausts,trim etc:, if they are of the same quality, cost the same whether they are on a Locost or a Caterham,but the perceived value of the finished cars is most definitely not the same,hence the difference in resale values between various makes.
Given the choice between a 7S2,7S3,or a Striker,I would be torn between the 3 of them,and personally I feel the trend for 200hp plus engines in 7alikes for road use is totally missing the point of "simplify and add lightness"as ACB Chapmam himself used to say.
A lightweight good handling sports car of minimal weight on a deserted twisty road on a summers evening is truly one of lifes best experiences (it must be, otherwise why would we spend all those hours in the workshop for relatively little time on the road?)Surely this type of car is all about going fast around corners ,not straight line speed or who has the most impressive dyno sheet/expensive trim ,the original ethos of the Seven seems to have been lost over the years,they were meant to be light,basic,no frills SPORTING cars,not A road cruisers.
Part of the great success of the Lowcost movement has been the move back to more affordable basic cars,which inevitably means more fun per £ for the builder and a huge sense of satisfaction when SVA is finally passed,anyone who has done this will know exactly what I mean.
The bike engined variants are without doubt great fun and hit the spot from a £ per smile/Kg perspective IMHO they are a pain for any sort of journey, but for sunny afternoon/trackday fun they are hard to beat.though I still prefer to ride the bulging torque curve of a nice old fashioned XFlow/Fiat/TwinCam on the road .
The pre lit (as produced) only looked similar chassis wise,the tunnel area especially being totally different from the Caterham which had a stressed skin type of tunnel,whereas the Westfield had a tubular frame clad with alloy panels,which Caterham later adopted in their cars?
The GRP panels on a Pre-Lit were,apart from the nose cone,to all intents and purposes S3 Seven clones,which is why Caterham took such great exception and subsequently forced the now characteristic grooved profiles around Westfield arches and wings to be used (to avoid confusion!!!!).I am led to believe that both firms later copyrighted features of their products to safeguard their positions in an increasingly crowded marketplace.
Incidentally there was a rumour that Caterham only bought the rights to the Seven S4 from Lotus and did not own the rights to produce the S3 project at all,only spares. Don't know how true that is though!!
Regarding the traits of the various 7alikes,for handling only
a properly set-up live axle Mk2 Escort based Striker is IMHO the one to go for,however,for looks alone the Lotus S2/S3 must be very near the top of the list,but looks are subjective after all.
One factor to bear in mind is that the bits you see, ie wheels,suspension,exhausts,trim etc:, if they are of the same quality, cost the same whether they are on a Locost or a Caterham,but the perceived value of the finished cars is most definitely not the same,hence the difference in resale values between various makes.
Given the choice between a 7S2,7S3,or a Striker,I would be torn between the 3 of them,and personally I feel the trend for 200hp plus engines in 7alikes for road use is totally missing the point of "simplify and add lightness"as ACB Chapmam himself used to say.
A lightweight good handling sports car of minimal weight on a deserted twisty road on a summers evening is truly one of lifes best experiences (it must be, otherwise why would we spend all those hours in the workshop for relatively little time on the road?)Surely this type of car is all about going fast around corners ,not straight line speed or who has the most impressive dyno sheet/expensive trim ,the original ethos of the Seven seems to have been lost over the years,they were meant to be light,basic,no frills SPORTING cars,not A road cruisers.
Part of the great success of the Lowcost movement has been the move back to more affordable basic cars,which inevitably means more fun per £ for the builder and a huge sense of satisfaction when SVA is finally passed,anyone who has done this will know exactly what I mean.
The bike engined variants are without doubt great fun and hit the spot from a £ per smile/Kg perspective IMHO they are a pain for any sort of journey, but for sunny afternoon/trackday fun they are hard to beat.though I still prefer to ride the bulging torque curve of a nice old fashioned XFlow/Fiat/TwinCam on the road .
Snake the Sniper said:
You do know the original design was of a pre-lit Westy don't you? Which was a direct copy of a Caterham?
Urban myths that are trotted out with the same tedious regularity as the 'Rover V8 only weighs as much as a 4-pot'.We've been here before, but:
The Locost chassis was a visual facsimile of the Westfield chassis. It is neither dimensionally nor geometrically identical (a few mm difference in geometry, particularly at the front end, makes a lot of difference).
...and the Westy was not a direct copy of the Caterham. There are numerous chassis and suspension differences, most obviously that the Westfield has short trailing arms and a panhard rod to locate the rear axle, whereas the Caterham uses an A-frame, and the Westfield uses Cortina uprights and a full wishbone (with no ARB) at the front, whereas the Caterham uses Triumph Herald uprights (with completely different geometry) and at that time used the anti-roll bar as a link on the front upper wishbone.
Having driven several examples of all three (and owned identically powered examples of both a Westfield SE and a Caterham personally), I can tell you that they drive quite differently, too.
Hi
The Ron Champion book locost was a copy of the later live axle SE Westfield. This as all the later Westfields was wider by 3" and longer in the cockpit than the earlier Westfields. The drawing in the book where abysmal to say the least whith so many inaccuracies meaning that you could not actualy construct a chassis from the dimensions given However with all the different companies who started to make them commercially they all took slightly different routes on how to go about getting around lack off accuracies in the book. This is where some of the offerings from various companies went horribly wrong. Some corrected the dimensions but still made the front suspension whith all the wrong geometry such as no Castor and horrendous bumpsteer. Then came the stage where they then started to do there own versions with IRS suspension and then the proverbial hit the fan. Not only did some of them not understand that the front was wrong but they then designed there own rear setup with no understanding of geometry leading to many offerings of the cheap end of the market with cars that have terrible geometry at the front and rear geometry that actualy goes in the wrong direction to what is needed. At the same time they also started to make the cockpits/ track / wheelbase bigger and bigger. and here we are now with many of the sevenesque type cars that are now no where as agile / nimble as the original Lotus / Caterham.
All in all if you just want a Seven type to drive leisurely around the roads then any will suffice as long as constructed to a competent standard. But if it's somthing whith decent handling then a bit of research will be needed and test drives are definitely in order. How many would spend 10+ K on a tintop without taking one for a test drive first. Yet so many spend 10+ K on a kitcar / kit without doing any research or a test drive and purely take the word of often biased opinions off the inter-web.
Just My 2P's worth.
Cheers Matt
The Ron Champion book locost was a copy of the later live axle SE Westfield. This as all the later Westfields was wider by 3" and longer in the cockpit than the earlier Westfields. The drawing in the book where abysmal to say the least whith so many inaccuracies meaning that you could not actualy construct a chassis from the dimensions given However with all the different companies who started to make them commercially they all took slightly different routes on how to go about getting around lack off accuracies in the book. This is where some of the offerings from various companies went horribly wrong. Some corrected the dimensions but still made the front suspension whith all the wrong geometry such as no Castor and horrendous bumpsteer. Then came the stage where they then started to do there own versions with IRS suspension and then the proverbial hit the fan. Not only did some of them not understand that the front was wrong but they then designed there own rear setup with no understanding of geometry leading to many offerings of the cheap end of the market with cars that have terrible geometry at the front and rear geometry that actualy goes in the wrong direction to what is needed. At the same time they also started to make the cockpits/ track / wheelbase bigger and bigger. and here we are now with many of the sevenesque type cars that are now no where as agile / nimble as the original Lotus / Caterham.
All in all if you just want a Seven type to drive leisurely around the roads then any will suffice as long as constructed to a competent standard. But if it's somthing whith decent handling then a bit of research will be needed and test drives are definitely in order. How many would spend 10+ K on a tintop without taking one for a test drive first. Yet so many spend 10+ K on a kitcar / kit without doing any research or a test drive and purely take the word of often biased opinions off the inter-web.
Just My 2P's worth.
Cheers Matt
Hi
Take a look over on the Locost builders site there are various plans for various designs off chassis that can be copied and put together without all the inaccuracies that where in the original book. You will not be alone as there must be around 50 odd guys and gals all constructing from scratch. All of them probably going about it in slightly different ways to suit thier own requirements. There's more info and help available than you could possibly imagine. Just about every problem will have been encountered before and theres members all over the country so help can also be in the actual hands on form also.
Nothing too lose by taking a look and asking a few Q's.
Cheers Matt
Take a look over on the Locost builders site there are various plans for various designs off chassis that can be copied and put together without all the inaccuracies that where in the original book. You will not be alone as there must be around 50 odd guys and gals all constructing from scratch. All of them probably going about it in slightly different ways to suit thier own requirements. There's more info and help available than you could possibly imagine. Just about every problem will have been encountered before and theres members all over the country so help can also be in the actual hands on form also.
Nothing too lose by taking a look and asking a few Q's.
Cheers Matt
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