Pics of my E93 M3 post KDS wet sand and paint refurbishment

Pics of my E93 M3 post KDS wet sand and paint refurbishment

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J-P

Original Poster:

4,350 posts

205 months

Tuesday 18th August 2009
quotequote all
mat205125 said:
Another great set of pictures.

Hypothetical question for all. If you were to arrive to collect your new M3 and it had a hammerite paint finish as bad as that M3 before it was sanded, would you a.) Want to reject the car until it was properly corrected at BMWs expense, & b.) Have any legal rights to be able to reject a poor quality paint finish .... "They're all like that" would no doubt be the dealers reply, however have any precedents been set by cases in the past where people have successfully rejected cars, or been able to charge BMW to have a wet sand correction done like this. I'd be a little concerned in case there were any come back effecting the corrosion warranty, for example.
I'd say you could probably reach some sort of compromise if you negotiated with the dealer and I'd say you'd be well within your rights to pull out of the deal on the basis of poor quality paint finish. I think you'd struggle to get BMW to actually concede that their finish is not up to scratch though. I contacted BMW after I had my car wet sanded and they basically said that the paint finish was within accpetable factory tolerances or some such BS!

Rags

3,640 posts

235 months

Tuesday 18th August 2009
quotequote all
The problem is 99.9 % of customers live with it, so why would one expect BMW to cough up for a detailer to rectify their poor / 'within tolerances' finish?

My Sparkling Graphite M3 is not that bad and to be honest, once its cleaned it looks good enough without looking as bad as the interlagos or black cars orange peel.


Mr Whippy

28,946 posts

240 months

Tuesday 18th August 2009
quotequote all
J-P said:
mat205125 said:
Another great set of pictures.

Hypothetical question for all. If you were to arrive to collect your new M3 and it had a hammerite paint finish as bad as that M3 before it was sanded, would you a.) Want to reject the car until it was properly corrected at BMWs expense, & b.) Have any legal rights to be able to reject a poor quality paint finish .... "They're all like that" would no doubt be the dealers reply, however have any precedents been set by cases in the past where people have successfully rejected cars, or been able to charge BMW to have a wet sand correction done like this. I'd be a little concerned in case there were any come back effecting the corrosion warranty, for example.
I'd say you could probably reach some sort of compromise if you negotiated with the dealer and I'd say you'd be well within your rights to pull out of the deal on the basis of poor quality paint finish. I think you'd struggle to get BMW to actually concede that their finish is not up to scratch though. I contacted BMW after I had my car wet sanded and they basically said that the paint finish was within accpetable factory tolerances or some such BS!
Shirley you could discuss this before buying, and basically put it down as a deal breaker for the retailer?
Negotatiate £1000 off for shocking paint finish requiring correction charge smile


Bit much trying to negotiate after delivery, when every single car in their dealership has orange peel and is clearly visible under their lovely lights!

J-P

Original Poster:

4,350 posts

205 months

Tuesday 18th August 2009
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
J-P said:
mat205125 said:
Another great set of pictures.

Hypothetical question for all. If you were to arrive to collect your new M3 and it had a hammerite paint finish as bad as that M3 before it was sanded, would you a.) Want to reject the car until it was properly corrected at BMWs expense, & b.) Have any legal rights to be able to reject a poor quality paint finish .... "They're all like that" would no doubt be the dealers reply, however have any precedents been set by cases in the past where people have successfully rejected cars, or been able to charge BMW to have a wet sand correction done like this. I'd be a little concerned in case there were any come back effecting the corrosion warranty, for example.
I'd say you could probably reach some sort of compromise if you negotiated with the dealer and I'd say you'd be well within your rights to pull out of the deal on the basis of poor quality paint finish. I think you'd struggle to get BMW to actually concede that their finish is not up to scratch though. I contacted BMW after I had my car wet sanded and they basically said that the paint finish was within accpetable factory tolerances or some such BS!
Shirley you could discuss this before buying, and basically put it down as a deal breaker for the retailer?
Negotatiate £1000 off for shocking paint finish requiring correction charge smile


Bit much trying to negotiate after delivery, when every single car in their dealership has orange peel and is clearly visible under their lovely lights!
I'd agree that your resolution has greatest likelihood of working but I lnow somebody who negotiated an unbelievable deal post purchase.

kds keltec

1,365 posts

189 months

Tuesday 18th August 2009
quotequote all
mat205125 said:
Another great set of pictures.

Hypothetical question for all. If you were to arrive to collect your new M3 and it had a hammerite paint finish as bad as that M3 before it was sanded, would you a.) Want to reject the car until it was properly corrected at BMWs expense, & b.) Have any legal rights to be able to reject a poor quality paint finish .... "They're all like that" would no doubt be the dealers reply, however have any precedents been set by cases in the past where people have successfully rejected cars, or been able to charge BMW to have a wet sand correction done like this. I'd be a little concerned in case there were any come back effecting the corrosion warranty, for example.
Answer to questions (which i have to be very carefull what i post)
A) This has happened in the past , can not say much more than that wink

B) Bmw dealership has sent a customer to me direct for this issue , many customers have contacted bmw different departments about the problem in various forms (phone , face to face and emails ) and know i am going to fix the problem and not once has there been concerns from bmw about warranty .

J-P knows of a friend which came to me for wet sand correction , he did not give in with his poor paint finish on his E92 M3 , sending detailed emails and phone calls and has ended up with a very good outcome , i will leave J-P to post the rest of the outcome if he would like too then no one will get in trouble with you know how ! wink

As for corrosion warranty this is not affected by what i do if carried out correctly .

The amount of paint removal for a normal machine polish correction can be as little as 1 - 2 microns , a quality piece of A4 paper is 100 microns thick , then wet sand correction can remove 3 - 20 microns of paint and is totally down to the person carring out the process to take the correct reading talking to the customer and making the right decissions .

The bmw paint depth readings i have taken over the last year on late cars has been so varied that it would be impossible to tell if a car had have 3 machine correction details just from measuring the total paint depth which is all the dealerships can do .

The X5 had total readings on the rear quarter panels from 160 - 100 microns on a brand new car and most of the new M3's reading on the bonnet , boot lid and roofs have ranged 30 microns across each panel alone .

The Blue E93 M3 had readings of 90 - 140 microns where j-p's had more consistent metal panels 150 - 165 microns and plastics lacquer coat 65 - 90 microns with a total 150 - 190 microns .

So if one car to another can have a difference of 50 - 60 microns and detailing processes done correctly takes of less than tenth of the difference you would never tell if a car was detailed correctly anyway .


If someone was to remove far to much lacquer then it still would not cause a corrosion problem the side affect would be early failure of the lacquer coat due to UV light mainly and the harsh climate we have .

This would still take many many years to happen unless left in a climate where its hot and sunny all the time , I have been wet sanding my own cars way past the limit of lacquer removal for over 18 years , this is mainly to achieve the flatest and best possible finish and not once have i ever seen any problems with paint failure ( of course i dont go to that extreme level on a customers car unless they really want me to and know the risks )

I have had a few cars through my workshop which have been machine polished before which have had all the lacquer removed on sharp and tight edges by the pervious machine polishes and again no bad outcome from this , this will be a problem say 10 years and onwards but most cars would of been repainted by then just for tidying up etc .

One last thing as i nearly forgot to post , the wet sanding process is removing all the high spots to achieve a flatter surface that you catch the reflection on (which is why its more noticeable on darker colours ) , when you measure the paint depth with correct equipment the measuring head is 10 mm across you are measuring the tops of the peaks of the orange peel , then after wet sanding process you are measuring a much flatter surface so if very carefull wet sanding has taken place it is possible to hardly touch the true ( bulk ) of the paint depth its just more even and consistent if that makes any sense ?thumbup

kds keltec

1,365 posts

189 months

Tuesday 18th August 2009
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
Wow, that looks fantastic!

Just looks so slick and wet...
Thanks Dave ,

Did you ever sort out your wheels matey ? wink

Kelly

Roop

6,012 posts

283 months

Tuesday 18th August 2009
quotequote all
What a fabulous result. It looks stunning and clearly had been properly finished. thumbup

I have some good friends that work for a very large automotive paint systems manufacturer and supply a lot of the top manufacturers. The system that BMW currently use is very different to that of other marques in that it uses a baked-on powder-based paint rather than wet paint process. They are the only mass manufacturer to use this process. I wonder if this is the source of the poor quality, orange-peel finish.

I also believe that BMW are now in the process of switching back all their factories to use a wet paint process again in the future.

J-P

Original Poster:

4,350 posts

205 months

Tuesday 18th August 2009
quotequote all
Oh OK to solve the mystery that Kelly alluded to earlier - Somebody I know basically blagged a new E92 M3 because of poor paint finish - Got a great price for his old car and only had to add a few thousand quid to get it. It really was a fantastic offer!!

kds keltec

1,365 posts

189 months

Tuesday 18th August 2009
quotequote all
Roop said:
What a fabulous result. It looks stunning and clearly had been properly finished. thumbup


I also believe that BMW are now in the process of switching back all their factories to use a wet paint process again in the future.
Good for all the new bmw customers , and bad for me getmecoat

kds keltec

1,365 posts

189 months

Tuesday 18th August 2009
quotequote all
J-P said:
Oh OK to solve the mystery that Kelly alluded to earlier - Somebody I know basically blagged a new E92 M3 because of poor paint finish - Got a great price for his old car and only had to add a few thousand quid to get it. It really was a fantastic offer!!
Took some photos on my behalf swapping emails etc but your friend got a very good out come if bad for me .

I guess bmw did not someone who had gone to the top of bmw to only see someone as small as me fix a bmw problem .

It does look like when searching other forums that its well known bmw have such a bad paint finish and things are changing for the best in a few years time .

J-P

Original Poster:

4,350 posts

205 months

Tuesday 18th August 2009
quotequote all
kds keltec said:
J-P said:
Oh OK to solve the mystery that Kelly alluded to earlier - Somebody I know basically blagged a new E92 M3 because of poor paint finish - Got a great price for his old car and only had to add a few thousand quid to get it. It really was a fantastic offer!!
Took some photos on my behalf swapping emails etc but your friend got a very good out come if bad for me .

I guess bmw did not someone who had gone to the top of bmw to only see someone as small as me fix a bmw problem .

It does look like when searching other forums that its well known bmw have such a bad paint finish and things are changing for the best in a few years time .
I'd have to agree - although some people just don't notice these things. My wife's car looks awful to me, but she's happy with it - when I've saved up a few quid I'll bring it over to you to sort out - it's a mess!

Roop

6,012 posts

283 months

Tuesday 18th August 2009
quotequote all
kds keltec said:
Roop said:
What a fabulous result. It looks stunning and clearly had been properly finished. thumbup


I also believe that BMW are now in the process of switching back all their factories to use a wet paint process again in the future.
Good for all the new bmw customers , and bad for me getmecoat
I don't think so. There will always be a market for a company that can refinish automotive paint to a high standard. Given the job you have done on the M3 I expect you will have a queue a mile long of punters wanting everything from wash n wax to a full detailing (although perhaps less needs for a wet sand).

J-P

Original Poster:

4,350 posts

205 months

Tuesday 18th August 2009
quotequote all
Roop said:
kds keltec said:
Roop said:
What a fabulous result. It looks stunning and clearly had been properly finished. thumbup


I also believe that BMW are now in the process of switching back all their factories to use a wet paint process again in the future.
Good for all the new bmw customers , and bad for me getmecoat
I don't think so. There will always be a market for a company that can refinish automotive paint to a high standard. Given the job you have done on the M3 I expect you will have a queue a mile long of punters wanting everything from wash n wax to a full detailing (although perhaps less needs for a wet sand).
+1

Mr Whippy

28,946 posts

240 months

Tuesday 18th August 2009
quotequote all
kds keltec said:
Mr Whippy said:
Wow, that looks fantastic!

Just looks so slick and wet...
Thanks Dave ,

Did you ever sort out your wheels matey ? wink

Kelly
Not yet... been very lazy... and saving/planning for imminent marriage hehe

I'll certainly see if Lepsons want them come the time, but I'll hate to add up the prices for getting them down there and back etc smile

Dave

tomvcarter

1,087 posts

192 months

Wednesday 17th March 2010
quotequote all
what option did the M3 driver go for? Gold?

kds keltec

1,365 posts

189 months

Thursday 18th March 2010
quotequote all
tomvcarter said:
what option did the M3 driver go for? Gold?
Hi Tom,

how surprised was i to see this back wink

I dont actually have the wet sand option on my websites new price menus packages , to reasons its a very bespoke and specialist package , so slowly writing the correct info for the "Platinum wet sand correction detail package" .

This is because the car needs to be inspected before hand by myself for paint depth and how bad the cars paint work is of defects and orange peel , this is due to some cars from the factory have less paint than others so need to establish there is plenty of scope to carry out such a process before hand . I have not seen or heard of another person / company to undertake such work .

And because of being the only person to do so i get alot of enquires to train detailers and public this alone takes up alot of my time , and then genuine people who are very interested in this process i can spend some time with them also showing and explaining the process , all thou i PH member has dropped his car of for this process which is with me at the momment and was the opposite quick inspection , quick chat of whats involved, dropped car back and said let me know when its ready thumbup

It is also upto 2 weeks work depending again on condition / paint depth and hardness of the paint as older bmw's have rock hard paint with very new ones having slightly softer paint so the process be varied in time scales and you only find that out once started the process .

So i will be writing a package as clear as possible with photos and videos to help the public understand some more to what goes into such a process before hand , with time scales and prices etc

kelly

s99ane

1,262 posts

233 months

Thursday 18th March 2010
quotequote all
Hey Kelly love your work justa pity your so far away would like to see it in the metal.

Right Im thread hijacking.....

Cant find the original thread about this.. sorry

You had an e92 M3 on CSL rims a while back. Do you happen to know what sizes they were? Were they aftermarket or OEM?

Thanks

S99ANE

bob1179

14,107 posts

208 months

Thursday 18th March 2010
quotequote all
Really interesting thread.

I never knew so much went into detailing.

smile

bodhi

10,334 posts

228 months

Thursday 18th March 2010
quotequote all
Cracking finish that is, really puts the standard BMW job to shame.

Oh and that LSB E46 M3 in the car park is glorious.

kds keltec

1,365 posts

189 months

Sunday 21st March 2010
quotequote all
s99ane said:
Hey Kelly love your work justa pity your so far away would like to see it in the metal.

Right Im thread hijacking.....

Cant find the original thread about this.. sorry

You had an e92 M3 on CSL rims a while back. Do you happen to know what sizes they were? Were they aftermarket or OEM?

Thanks

S99ANE
They were original CSL's , i use them as donor wheels while customers car in with me and wheels are being refurbed at Lepsons ,


I will dig out the pictures andf then expain what and how they fitted wink

Kelly