Racing Ultima in Britcar
Discussion
Hi all. We have gradually been building our GTR up over the last couple of years with a view to entering it into next years Britcar Championship. We were hoping to get into the Britsports category (because of our planned power to weight), but since this has been axed we are planning to settle with a 510bhp lump which, with a car weight fo around a ton, should give us close to the highest bhp/ton allowed.
That aside, I am growing increasingly concerned about the ability of certain components on the car being up to the forces involved in racing, particularly the suspension components. We have the AP brake kit, which will have extra cooling added, and we have the full FIA rollcage, and intrax dampers. I am guessing that after some testing we will end up stiffening up the suspension with stiffer springs and/or antiroll bar.
My main concerns are surrounding the wishbones, uprights and suspension mounts. I was rather horrified to see the effects the standard cars can have on the suspension mounts under hard acceleration and braking (bending of the mounting points etc), and although the factory have been quick to address this issue with the release of their strengthening kit, it does worry me that the rest of the suspension components may not be up to the forces involved. I am concerned that the uprights (and maybe wishbones) may not be up to coping with the continued high stresses involved in highspeed cornering/braking - obviously they are designed for road use, but I believe fatigue will be an issue here since the units are cast. The problem I have is that I do not have any kind of reference point to start off any kind of stress analysis on the parts - being a mechanical engineer I am comfortable with doing anlysis like this, however with unknowns like shock loads generated when potholes/kerbs are hit etc being involved, it makes the analysis very difficult. Calculating cornering forces is realatively straight forward, its these unknown shock loads that concern me.
Have there been many Ultimas used for racing? We are aware of a couple, but they have been run in British GT, and as such have had substantial amounts of extra work done to the car at great expense (which we cannot afford!). Are my fears justified (fracturing an upright mid corner will not end up in a pretty result), or do people's experience show that the components are sufficiently over engineered for road use to be able to cope with circuit racing?
Any sugestions/help will be appreciated.
Thanks in advance, Jonny.
That aside, I am growing increasingly concerned about the ability of certain components on the car being up to the forces involved in racing, particularly the suspension components. We have the AP brake kit, which will have extra cooling added, and we have the full FIA rollcage, and intrax dampers. I am guessing that after some testing we will end up stiffening up the suspension with stiffer springs and/or antiroll bar.
My main concerns are surrounding the wishbones, uprights and suspension mounts. I was rather horrified to see the effects the standard cars can have on the suspension mounts under hard acceleration and braking (bending of the mounting points etc), and although the factory have been quick to address this issue with the release of their strengthening kit, it does worry me that the rest of the suspension components may not be up to the forces involved. I am concerned that the uprights (and maybe wishbones) may not be up to coping with the continued high stresses involved in highspeed cornering/braking - obviously they are designed for road use, but I believe fatigue will be an issue here since the units are cast. The problem I have is that I do not have any kind of reference point to start off any kind of stress analysis on the parts - being a mechanical engineer I am comfortable with doing anlysis like this, however with unknowns like shock loads generated when potholes/kerbs are hit etc being involved, it makes the analysis very difficult. Calculating cornering forces is realatively straight forward, its these unknown shock loads that concern me.
Have there been many Ultimas used for racing? We are aware of a couple, but they have been run in British GT, and as such have had substantial amounts of extra work done to the car at great expense (which we cannot afford!). Are my fears justified (fracturing an upright mid corner will not end up in a pretty result), or do people's experience show that the components are sufficiently over engineered for road use to be able to cope with circuit racing?
Any sugestions/help will be appreciated.
Thanks in advance, Jonny.
My cousin used to race an ultima a few years ago in the GT championships, and they had fairly much sorted the car before they had a massive off (160mph into a concrete bunker during a race).
You could give him a ring - (allow loads of time!) to have a chat. He rebuilt the car for the races so should recall any issues/problems.
Also, if you want to transport the car to the races, he builds quite nice transporters!
Reg Hopkins - Bristol. Tell him his cousin (Paul Buck) gave you the details. Hope that helps.
http://www.racecartransporters.net/
His son still races - Phil Hopkins. I think this is him...:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/2007/Oulton_...
You could give him a ring - (allow loads of time!) to have a chat. He rebuilt the car for the races so should recall any issues/problems.
Also, if you want to transport the car to the races, he builds quite nice transporters!
Reg Hopkins - Bristol. Tell him his cousin (Paul Buck) gave you the details. Hope that helps.
http://www.racecartransporters.net/
His son still races - Phil Hopkins. I think this is him...:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/2007/Oulton_...
Hi Jonny
I briefly raced my Ultima in 2006 in the Midengined sports cars Series.
Absolutely standard road car for first race with 311bhp at the wheels (So as to comply with 330 bhp/ton rule for the series)
Suspension way too soft for racing so stiffer springs and Track biased tyres for 2nd race.
Having nothing to compare it with I set car to factory standard setup with stiffer springs and it handled like a dream.
I was planning on racing the Ultima in Britcars in 2008 but was told at the last minute I could only run in Britsports which only had 4 or 5 entries of LMP2 type cars and as expected was cancelled so I didn’t bother.
I had a standard wishbone slowly bend and then collapse during 2nd race of the day at the 2nd meeting. The factory offer a full rose jointed solution which use thicker wall tubing and I am sure will be up to the job.
http://www.pistonheads.tv/clip919
I have the Getrag gearbox and a cable seized during another race so I have upgraded that although I assume you will use the G50 so won’t encounter that problem.
The biggest issue with Britcar is the length of the races will require Dry Break Fuel system.
Drop me a mail and I’d be happy to share my thoughts.
Glyn
I briefly raced my Ultima in 2006 in the Midengined sports cars Series.
Absolutely standard road car for first race with 311bhp at the wheels (So as to comply with 330 bhp/ton rule for the series)
Suspension way too soft for racing so stiffer springs and Track biased tyres for 2nd race.
Having nothing to compare it with I set car to factory standard setup with stiffer springs and it handled like a dream.
I was planning on racing the Ultima in Britcars in 2008 but was told at the last minute I could only run in Britsports which only had 4 or 5 entries of LMP2 type cars and as expected was cancelled so I didn’t bother.
I had a standard wishbone slowly bend and then collapse during 2nd race of the day at the 2nd meeting. The factory offer a full rose jointed solution which use thicker wall tubing and I am sure will be up to the job.
http://www.pistonheads.tv/clip919
I have the Getrag gearbox and a cable seized during another race so I have upgraded that although I assume you will use the G50 so won’t encounter that problem.
The biggest issue with Britcar is the length of the races will require Dry Break Fuel system.
Drop me a mail and I’d be happy to share my thoughts.
Glyn
Excellent responses so far thanks. Its good to hear the voice of experience before we start stabbing away in the dark. We went for the standard (non rose jointed) suspension - purely because of cost, although I have to admit I did not realise that the rose jointed units were made of thicker walled tube than the standard stuff. Does the rose jointed suspension allow for castor changes as well as camber etc?
We met a chap at the Britcar on saturday who raced Ultima in the British GT championship - though I do not recall his name, though I have his business card at home. Could well be the same person! We are aware of the dry break issue - watching the lead Prosport car (effectively a race prepped Ultima chassis-d race car which the aforementioned chap drove) the refuelling was slightly cumbersome to say the least - but thankfully i have it all on film so that we can have a good think about how to best approach this. The cost of the dry break systems from ATL are quite staggering, especially when you have a good look at them and see how basic they really are!
Going and having a good poke round the pits and watching the race and pit stops gave us a good feel for what equipment we need on top of what we already have, as well as how many people we would need for a weekend. What kind of increase in spring rates did you go for in the end?
We met a chap at the Britcar on saturday who raced Ultima in the British GT championship - though I do not recall his name, though I have his business card at home. Could well be the same person! We are aware of the dry break issue - watching the lead Prosport car (effectively a race prepped Ultima chassis-d race car which the aforementioned chap drove) the refuelling was slightly cumbersome to say the least - but thankfully i have it all on film so that we can have a good think about how to best approach this. The cost of the dry break systems from ATL are quite staggering, especially when you have a good look at them and see how basic they really are!
Going and having a good poke round the pits and watching the race and pit stops gave us a good feel for what equipment we need on top of what we already have, as well as how many people we would need for a weekend. What kind of increase in spring rates did you go for in the end?
I am afraid my changes were unscientific and pure guesswork based on a very small budget and no prior testing.
The condition and track were different for each setup so it is hard to make reliable comparisons.
I initially increased the springs by about 40% and then later to nearly 100% - this may well have assisted the collapse of the wishbone. The roll under heavy cornering caused problems with rubbing wheel arches that was never experienced on the road.
Even with the 100% springs there was considerable amount of body roll and I would recommend anti-roll bars.
I also went for wider front tyres which helped with under steer. I bought a new set of wheel rims with the same offset but an extra 1” added to the inside. This then required restricting the steering from full lock to avoid contact with the body.
If using the factory dampers you will need the helper springs that the factory now supply as the springs become unseated on the unloaded inside wheel during heavy cornering.
All in all the car is very capable in standard form but still has much more to offer. Like any car as you develop one piece it causes new problems in other parts not experienced on road cars. As relatively few people have raced Ultimas there is little information and statistics available and those cars that have been raced tend to be highly modified and therefore don’t offer a comparison with a more standard road car.
I envy you as I would love to race the car again but can’t afford too it in the current climate.
The condition and track were different for each setup so it is hard to make reliable comparisons.
I initially increased the springs by about 40% and then later to nearly 100% - this may well have assisted the collapse of the wishbone. The roll under heavy cornering caused problems with rubbing wheel arches that was never experienced on the road.
Even with the 100% springs there was considerable amount of body roll and I would recommend anti-roll bars.
I also went for wider front tyres which helped with under steer. I bought a new set of wheel rims with the same offset but an extra 1” added to the inside. This then required restricting the steering from full lock to avoid contact with the body.
If using the factory dampers you will need the helper springs that the factory now supply as the springs become unseated on the unloaded inside wheel during heavy cornering.
All in all the car is very capable in standard form but still has much more to offer. Like any car as you develop one piece it causes new problems in other parts not experienced on road cars. As relatively few people have raced Ultimas there is little information and statistics available and those cars that have been raced tend to be highly modified and therefore don’t offer a comparison with a more standard road car.
I envy you as I would love to race the car again but can’t afford too it in the current climate.
I would speak to these people as the used to run the ultima in the GT series a few years back
http://www.mastermotorsport.co.uk/index.htm#top
http://www.mastermotorsport.co.uk/index.htm#top
A couple of months ago I had a problem with an Intrax shock leaking. long story short I found myself in a conversation with the owner of Intrax in Holland. Very nice man, has raced the car succsessfully in Holland, was involved in the setup of the shocks for the car at inception. You might give him a ring. I am sure he would give you some intresting insight into your concearns. Lee
If you are ever in need of a driver, I've heard of a couple of young racers, new to the scene with a little Ultima experience. 
I hear they come cheap will race for burgers and buns!!
I think this is their site:
www.luckypracing.com
Lucky (alwaysheretohelp)
Seriously, good luck. Look forward to seeing how you get on.
I hear they come cheap will race for burgers and buns!!
I think this is their site:
www.luckypracing.com
Lucky (alwaysheretohelp)
Seriously, good luck. Look forward to seeing how you get on.
Jonny
Have you seen this thread, You never know there might be a set of ARB's going??
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... noise out of corners..
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... noise out of corners..
It was only a suggestion I'm afraid. There are several Ultima with bespoke ARB and I would fit one before using it on track again. Regs for different race series are quite specific and at the time I wanted to leave my car factory standard. As they don’t offer an ARB I didn’t fit one. From my experience nobody cares if your car meets eligibility when you’re running at the back of the grid and they are pleased to see something different out there. However as soon as you start to do well everyone will scrutinise your car for eligibility.
One example is the rear spoiler – as a standard production car I could run with the twin element as it was a factory option. However as soon as I won a race they measured it against rules for adapted cars (which it wasn’t) that covered more serious race cars. Adapted cars were only allowed a single element although the dimensions of this would be much larger than the combined twin element.
One example is the rear spoiler – as a standard production car I could run with the twin element as it was a factory option. However as soon as I won a race they measured it against rules for adapted cars (which it wasn’t) that covered more serious race cars. Adapted cars were only allowed a single element although the dimensions of this would be much larger than the combined twin element.
my antiroll bars were made by the factory...
When i spoke to Richard last week he advised it was a set they made and if successfull they might have produced them as an option... to be fair the tube is huge and there wont be any twist there.... wheather it works on track???? Well GTWayne has been in the car arround the ring!!!!!!!!!!!
Im not sure whether Richard felt they were successful but he certainly said they were designed for track use only, not the road..
Again if you guys want some photos or measurements, give me a shout
dom
When i spoke to Richard last week he advised it was a set they made and if successfull they might have produced them as an option... to be fair the tube is huge and there wont be any twist there.... wheather it works on track???? Well GTWayne has been in the car arround the ring!!!!!!!!!!!
Im not sure whether Richard felt they were successful but he certainly said they were designed for track use only, not the road..
Again if you guys want some photos or measurements, give me a shout
dom
I run ARBs on my car and love them. Much easier to adjust the car depending on track or weather and of course much less roll. If you want to drive on the road or it starts to rain it's a 3 minute job to open up the front and rear clips and disconnect one of the droplinks and the ARB are out of function.
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