Pros and cons of bike engined sevens ?
Discussion
If you are looking for a road legal bike engined 7, there are literally dozens of well finished cars in the classifieds at the moment. It's definatley a buyers market.
The first thing is going to be budget. £5 - 6k will buy you a Locost / or an Indy with a smallish capacity engine (early blade / ZX9). These will be pretty quick and handle well. However the engines will be getting on a bit and will be on carbs. (Old engines can be good, I paid £150 for my last replacement engine, cheaper than servicing them!!)
£8 - 10k will get you an MNR / MK / MAC1 with a more recent fuel injected blade / R1 engine. These will be slightly faster and with a more modern engine, likely to be more reliable.
£10k upwards will get you a larger engined car, something like a ZXR12 / 1300 Busa / ZZR1400. These will be quicker again. Bear in mind however that if you do kill an engine, you'll be looking at big bills.
£14k up will buy you a Caterham BEC or a Westfield Megabusa. Rare, so they hold their resale value, but should be well put together. Easier resale if you come to sell. Also as they are "factory" cars there should be more support for spares / servicing.
In terms of specific cars, look for 3 things, build quality / attention to detail, evidence of regular servicing and correct registration (run a mile from anything without an accurate V5C / described as a Dutton or Escort Sports....).
I've done 6,500 miles in my BEC and have never really needed a reverse, so a reverse box isn't a prerequiste. They can and do go wrong (big bills).
Bear in mind that any BEC is going to need some care and attention. I don't know many who just get in and drive every day. Frequent oil changes are a minimum. Problems with oil starvation / cooling and gearboxes are not unknown.... Most "normal" garages won't touch a kit car and especially a BEC. Unless you've got deep pockets / an accommodating garage, be prepared to spend some time underneath it....
Overall though, they are brilliant fun. I've just done nearly 900 miles round Scotland in mine. Several trackdays and loads of blats out. Get involved in the local 7's club. Blatting in groups is loads more fun than being billy no mates.
Hope that helps.
Mike
The first thing is going to be budget. £5 - 6k will buy you a Locost / or an Indy with a smallish capacity engine (early blade / ZX9). These will be pretty quick and handle well. However the engines will be getting on a bit and will be on carbs. (Old engines can be good, I paid £150 for my last replacement engine, cheaper than servicing them!!)
£8 - 10k will get you an MNR / MK / MAC1 with a more recent fuel injected blade / R1 engine. These will be slightly faster and with a more modern engine, likely to be more reliable.
£10k upwards will get you a larger engined car, something like a ZXR12 / 1300 Busa / ZZR1400. These will be quicker again. Bear in mind however that if you do kill an engine, you'll be looking at big bills.
£14k up will buy you a Caterham BEC or a Westfield Megabusa. Rare, so they hold their resale value, but should be well put together. Easier resale if you come to sell. Also as they are "factory" cars there should be more support for spares / servicing.
In terms of specific cars, look for 3 things, build quality / attention to detail, evidence of regular servicing and correct registration (run a mile from anything without an accurate V5C / described as a Dutton or Escort Sports....).
I've done 6,500 miles in my BEC and have never really needed a reverse, so a reverse box isn't a prerequiste. They can and do go wrong (big bills).
Bear in mind that any BEC is going to need some care and attention. I don't know many who just get in and drive every day. Frequent oil changes are a minimum. Problems with oil starvation / cooling and gearboxes are not unknown.... Most "normal" garages won't touch a kit car and especially a BEC. Unless you've got deep pockets / an accommodating garage, be prepared to spend some time underneath it....
Overall though, they are brilliant fun. I've just done nearly 900 miles round Scotland in mine. Several trackdays and loads of blats out. Get involved in the local 7's club. Blatting in groups is loads more fun than being billy no mates.
Hope that helps.
Mike
I'm definitely looking at the budget end of the market but I worry about Locosts,the quality of the chassis in particular.
Re reverse gear,my garage is accessed by a quite narrow drive and is on an incline,gonna be a bit of a bugger getting the car in and out without reverse ! How rare are cars with a reverse gear ?
Re reverse gear,my garage is accessed by a quite narrow drive and is on an incline,gonna be a bit of a bugger getting the car in and out without reverse ! How rare are cars with a reverse gear ?
Edited by V8covin on Sunday 31st May 11:00
GuinnessMK said:
I've done 6,500 miles in my BEC and have never really needed a reverse, so a reverse box isn't a prerequiste.
How on earth can you never need a reverse? What happens if you need to reverse up hill? e.g. you meet several cars on a narrow road, do you just sit there and wait for all the other cars to reverse back down and find a passing place big enough for all of them?V8covin said:
I'm definitely looking at the budget end of the market but I worry about Locosts,the quality of the chassis in particular.
Re reverse gear,my garage is accessed by a quite narrow drive and is on an incline,gonna be a bit of a bugger getting the car in and out without reverse ! How rare are cars with a reverse gear ?
Two tips from me would be to go for an electric reverse - the transfer box types are heavy, not that reliable IME and add 20-30kgs of weigtht for no advantage. The electric motor solutions that work off a gear on the prop are a much more elegant solution.Re reverse gear,my garage is accessed by a quite narrow drive and is on an incline,gonna be a bit of a bugger getting the car in and out without reverse ! How rare are cars with a reverse gear ?
Edited by V8covin on Sunday 31st May 11:00
The second tip is go over the chassis with a fine toothed comb if you're buying SH. The majority of Kit Car manufacturers (even the expensive ones and TVR) have appalling coating qualities.
Mr2Mike said:
GuinnessMK said:
I've done 6,500 miles in my BEC and have never really needed a reverse, so a reverse box isn't a prerequiste.
How on earth can you never need a reverse? What happens if you need to reverse up hill? e.g. you meet several cars on a narrow road, do you just sit there and wait for all the other cars to reverse back down and find a passing place big enough for all of them?I've only ever come nose to nose with another car once. I was driving down a terraced street in Jesmond. Parked cars on either side, single lane left in the middle of the road. I was about 3/4 of the way down the road when a Jag pulls into the end of the street, sees me and enters the single lane. By this point I was 800 yards in and he was about 20 yards in. He refused to reverse. Got out, had a word in his window. He reversed. I don't think in that situation even if I'd had a reverse I would have used it...........
I've just done nearly 900 miles round Scotland, including some sections of single track. Usually you can see from one passing place to the next. Other drivers were on the whole very courteous.
Only once in 3 days / 900 miles did I make someone reverse. He was about 5 yards from the passing place, so not the end of the world.
Mike
Hi,
I've got my Locost forsale at the minute(on piston heads) I've had it for 2 years now,I was a bit scepticle about buying a Locost over a factory built chassis but I had a look at some factory built cars that were really quite poorly finished(on the second hand market)I was also on the budget side on the market.I took someone with me that knew more about welding than myself just to ensure the chassis had been put together well,everything else you should be able too see for yourself.If you do go for a look at a Locost just have a good look over it and don't be worried about asking questions,I think you should pick up a better spec'd Locost for your money against a factory built car and just because it is a Locost doesn't mean it will be trouble !!
I've got my Locost forsale at the minute(on piston heads) I've had it for 2 years now,I was a bit scepticle about buying a Locost over a factory built chassis but I had a look at some factory built cars that were really quite poorly finished(on the second hand market)I was also on the budget side on the market.I took someone with me that knew more about welding than myself just to ensure the chassis had been put together well,everything else you should be able too see for yourself.If you do go for a look at a Locost just have a good look over it and don't be worried about asking questions,I think you should pick up a better spec'd Locost for your money against a factory built car and just because it is a Locost doesn't mean it will be trouble !!
Edited by craig_007 on Sunday 31st May 22:38
Check out locostbuilders.co.uk
Owned BECS since 2000, have yet to have a engine failure, that's in 3 seasons racing, countless track days, 10's of thousands road miles including two up to Le Mans, never had a reverse aside from on race car to satisfy regs, never needed reverse aside from satisfying scrutineers.
People tell me there are cons to BEC ownership, noise for instance, I quite like the noise, no good on motorways, 7's don't really like motorways whatever's under the bonnet ? Fragile, never found it an issue, no torque ? 6 gears and 12krpm put that right, have to be driven hard to make em swift.......errrrrrrr that's the idea is it not, I have a Focus for tootling about, if you don't drive your CEC hard you ain't keeping up so never understood that one ?
Not for all I guess but I personally find BECS much easier to drive "hard" than a CEC and much more fun ?
Steer clear of Bird engined cars and you wont go far wrong, Blades, R1's well proven and that's the engines you will be looking at at the "budget" end.
Owned BECS since 2000, have yet to have a engine failure, that's in 3 seasons racing, countless track days, 10's of thousands road miles including two up to Le Mans, never had a reverse aside from on race car to satisfy regs, never needed reverse aside from satisfying scrutineers.
People tell me there are cons to BEC ownership, noise for instance, I quite like the noise, no good on motorways, 7's don't really like motorways whatever's under the bonnet ? Fragile, never found it an issue, no torque ? 6 gears and 12krpm put that right, have to be driven hard to make em swift.......errrrrrrr that's the idea is it not, I have a Focus for tootling about, if you don't drive your CEC hard you ain't keeping up so never understood that one ?
Not for all I guess but I personally find BECS much easier to drive "hard" than a CEC and much more fun ?
Steer clear of Bird engined cars and you wont go far wrong, Blades, R1's well proven and that's the engines you will be looking at at the "budget" end.
The low torque high revs of a bike engine suits a light weight car like a seven. Better traction and less wheelspin than an equivalent CEC. They can be noisy, it depends on what silencer you fit. Mine is quite quiet (for a kit car). I've found I don't need a reverse. That said, I don't part at supermarkets or things.
BTW, mine is for sale on here and it is lovely!
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1054456.htm
BTW, mine is for sale on here and it is lovely!
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1054456.htm
Jon Ison - how comes you said steer clear of blackbird lumps?? Just wondering really as Ive seen 1 or 2 on pistonheads
Oh and goting back to the subject I did same as you in Dec '08. Bought a MAC1 with a 918 blade lump.
Brilliant fun but a bad flooding in Feb and little problems from the previous owner being a tw*t meant that I had to take it back to MAC. Its there now but while they go right through it Ive had lots of new 'go faster' bits fitted
I bought from a company that people recc. and knew that if I needed I could take it back to them. I didnt want to build one prefer just thrashing them
As mentioned earlier although newer ones are quicker the older engines like ZZR1100, 893/918 blade, ZX9R etc are cheap to come by. My CBR lump runs perfect and I can buy one off fleabay for £150!! It doesnt hang about either ;-)
Oh and goting back to the subject I did same as you in Dec '08. Bought a MAC1 with a 918 blade lump.
Brilliant fun but a bad flooding in Feb and little problems from the previous owner being a tw*t meant that I had to take it back to MAC. Its there now but while they go right through it Ive had lots of new 'go faster' bits fitted
I bought from a company that people recc. and knew that if I needed I could take it back to them. I didnt want to build one prefer just thrashing them
As mentioned earlier although newer ones are quicker the older engines like ZZR1100, 893/918 blade, ZX9R etc are cheap to come by. My CBR lump runs perfect and I can buy one off fleabay for £150!! It doesnt hang about either ;-)
If your intrested mine up for sale in bike engined cars orange mnr with a zx9r on carbs as for reverse i have never needed it so far (400 miles) this year just think ahead and drive accordingly the zx9 pulls very well cheap replacment engines, whats not to like? pound for pound this is the best fun i have had its got the "skyline smile" with out the cost yes i have had one & 3 pulsars,1 scoobie ect.... like the advert says just do it!
Jon Ison said:
Blackibirds are probably the most prone bike engine to oiling problems when turned 90* and put in a car, nothing that cant be overcome but the op did mention budget end of the market.
Agreed they MUST be dry sumped or they tend to suffer from oil starvation problems. That adds £1200 to the budget. The pros though is the gearing, which is better suited than on the Busa.I have read many of these posts to death and few people talk about the speed difference between one and two people on board. I must state I dont own a BEC but have seen people mention that with small engines there is a noticable speed difference when carring a mate. Is this true for smaller BECs? I will be two up alot of the time when I get mine so im gonna save harder and buy 1000cc or bigger first off. I would feel slightly robbed when trying to scare my mates around a track if its 8 secs off the pace of a 56 sec lap. If its that much of a difference surely this needs to be considered when buying, right?
Ok, but are your mates 2 up to ?
Only short clips but have a look at the link, Mallory 6 hour, that's a whopping 893cc blade engine 2 up with a gear linkage problem (fixed during a pitstop), the 1st clip (jon ison) and the last one (carver) are in car bec footage.
http://www.guildofmotorendurance.co.uk/videos.htm
Of course there is a difference but I've yet to take a passenger anywhere for them to get out and comment, "thats slow"
Best example I can come up with is Donington a few years back 2 up it took a friend also 2 up in a genuine just short of 450bhp cosworth powered 7 five laps to get past, I could have kept him behind had I wanted to (by driving defensively from 3/4 the way down the longest straight) I could also be much later onto the brakes and carry more speed though the chicane, this was the only place on the circuit he was a threat, provided I was into the chicane 1st I had gone until we where back onto and well into the longest straight
Its a shame when you have to justify comments on here so please dont think I'm preaching BECS are the be all and end all, but they get a fair bit of bad press a lot of which comes from non owners, BECs are BECs, loud, require a lot of driver input (that's one of the plus sides for me) and provide on track super car beating performance for peanuts in comparison.
Only short clips but have a look at the link, Mallory 6 hour, that's a whopping 893cc blade engine 2 up with a gear linkage problem (fixed during a pitstop), the 1st clip (jon ison) and the last one (carver) are in car bec footage.
http://www.guildofmotorendurance.co.uk/videos.htm
Of course there is a difference but I've yet to take a passenger anywhere for them to get out and comment, "thats slow"
Best example I can come up with is Donington a few years back 2 up it took a friend also 2 up in a genuine just short of 450bhp cosworth powered 7 five laps to get past, I could have kept him behind had I wanted to (by driving defensively from 3/4 the way down the longest straight) I could also be much later onto the brakes and carry more speed though the chicane, this was the only place on the circuit he was a threat, provided I was into the chicane 1st I had gone until we where back onto and well into the longest straight
Its a shame when you have to justify comments on here so please dont think I'm preaching BECS are the be all and end all, but they get a fair bit of bad press a lot of which comes from non owners, BECs are BECs, loud, require a lot of driver input (that's one of the plus sides for me) and provide on track super car beating performance for peanuts in comparison.
I have the weediest BEC engine going in my Megablade, and it doesn't feel noticeably slower with a passenger. Definitely not in the same way that a normal car can feel sluggish with 3 passengers onboard. I guess it might show in lap times, but not noticeable by seat of pants.
Me plus passenger is probably only 20 stone though. If you and your mate are both 18 stone each it might struggle
Me plus passenger is probably only 20 stone though. If you and your mate are both 18 stone each it might struggle
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