Why are ex-academy cars cheap?

[Chris71]

I'm contemplating a '7 type car as my next purchase and for my budget I'm just starting to edge into lower Caterham territory. As well as the usual ageing x-flow cars there are some quite well-specced ex-Caterham Academy cars for sale at lowish prices.

Is there a specific reason for this, is it just the stigma of being an ex race car, or is there a real chance they might have been shunted?

ETA While we're talking about Caterhams, does anyone recognise this Vauxhall powered car out of the PH classifieds? http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1024576.htm Looks quite promising...

Edited by Chris71 on Monday 1st June 18:21

[jleroux]

an HPC will offer exceptional bang-for-buck - almost unrivalled in caterham terms in fact. just be wary of the noise issue - they're notoriously loud on the induction side as well as exhaust - not a cheap fix to get it down below 98dB.

as for academy cars, they are one of the most common spec caterhams and obviously race history puts a lot of people off. personally, I wouldn't worry at all about crash damage as long as it's be professionally repaired (ie back to arch for chassis work). i'd rather have a recently re-chassis'd 2003 race car than a tired 2 year old car that's never seen a race team for example.

always buy on current condition rather than history - the odometer is never going to give the full story and unless you're buying from the guy who built the car there's always going to be something missing from the picture.

also bear in mind there are a few ex-formula-woman academy-spec cars doing the rounds. not saying there's anything wrong with them (i've not seen them) but they are certainly worth significantly less than an equivalent privately owned car.

Jonny
BaT

[jleroux]

oh, and "buy on current condition" does not mean "look at the paintwork" - that's entirely superficial in the grand scheme of things! if in doubt, get a reputable caterham race team to look over the car for you prior to purchase.

Jonny
BaT

[Chris71]

Thanks.

I know this is going completely off topic relative to the thread title, but what exactly makes it as HPC and why is that good?

Sorry, excuse my naivety I know nothing about the Caterham models - are we talking live axle or IRS, for example? Anything special about them?

It seems like a good spec and quite affordable for a Caterham - is there a catch?

[jleroux]

not sure on exact specs of the HPC, but I think the reason they are quite cheap is that they are quite heavy and that affects the handling. there's nothing quite as poised as a k-series caterham.

also - did I mention noise? absolutely no point having a fire-breathing monster of a seven if you're too noisy to use it at any UK circuit.

Jonny
BaT

[Chris71]

True. You did indeed and it's a major concern. My local circuit is Bedford - 98dB IIRC - with Brands (also lowish) next round the M25. Is that likely to be a problem with other '7s do you think? Presumably there are some powertrains that are better than others in that respect?

Has the switch to IRS been quite a recent one with Caterham? (ie if I'm looking up to say £12k is it going to all be live axle cars?) And are 'must have' features which act as a real bonus?

Oh, and as a general point... just how bad is the weather gear on a Caterham? Can they be made completely watertight?

Thanks for the advice - some really useful stuff, apologies for the barrage of questions!

[Delbert]

"ex-Caterham Academy cars for sale at lowish prices"

The "Hippo" has probabally fixed it

(Thats the last Car phone I'll get discount on the fitting

[Tango7]

For mainly road use, an HPC is an excellent choice. Typically they have the 16V 2.0 Vauxhall red top engine with (reputably) 175 bhp on 45 webers or IIRC 165 bhp on injection. Standard equipment should be 5 speed, widetrack, LSD (although not fitted to all cars), possibly dry sumped, big brakes, leather S types and so on. They offer a lot of car for the money and have lots of character to drive. Downside is that they can be a little noisy (induction and exhaust) and if you are going to sprint one, they are a bit nose heavy which means they aren't quite as nimble as a K series car. This doesn't mean they aren't quick though as there are plenty doing trackdays and they can certainly motor!

[jleroux]

Chris71 said:

True. You did indeed and it's a major concern. My local circuit is Bedford - 98dB IIRC - with Brands (also lowish) next round the M25. Is that likely to be a problem with other '7s do you think? Presumably there are some powertrains that are better than others in that respect?

As a rule of thumb - standard plenums (ie anything tucked away inside the bonnet) should be OK. once you move to throttle bodies you're in for induction noise issues.

for example - K-series supersports and VVC's are OK for noise whereas Superlight-R, R400/R500 are borderline/too noisy.

the newer duratec engined cars are OK up to R400 level because even the R400 still uses the standard plenum - it's only really the R500 that struggles.

this is all relative to a 98dB static/drive-by limit BTW.

Jonny
BaT

[ewenm]

Chris71 said:

Has the switch to IRS been quite a recent one with Caterham? (ie if I'm looking up to say £12k is it going to all be live axle cars?) And are 'must have' features which act as a real bonus?

There are 3 suspension versions on 7s. The early ones have live rear axles, the more recent ones have a DeDion tube and the CSRs have IRS. I'd say you'd be looking at DeDion versions with "normal" engines (K-Series) or older live axles with more unusual or powerful engines.

Chris71 said:

Oh, and as a general point... just how bad is the weather gear on a Caterham? Can they be made completely watertight?

When fitted correctly the roof is very effective. Completely watertight? Well, almost although getting in and out when it's raining will let water into the car. As I think you know, I used my 7 as an only car for 5 years driving in all conditions.

[ewenm]

Delbert said:

"ex-Caterham Academy cars for sale at lowish prices"

The "Hippo" has probabally fixed it

(Thats the last Car phone I'll get discount on the fitting

Is that using the "just use a bigger hammer" technique?

[Chris71]

ewenm said:

Chris71 said:

Has the switch to IRS been quite a recent one with Caterham? (ie if I'm looking up to say £12k is it going to all be live axle cars?) And are 'must have' features which act as a real bonus?

There are 3 suspension versions on 7s. The early ones have live rear axles, the more recent ones have a DeDion tube and the CSRs have IRS. I'd say you'd be looking at DeDion versions with "normal" engines (K-Series) or older live axles with more unusual or powerful engines.

Thanks how does that equate to the model names? Assuming the CSR isn't really an option in my budget that presumably leaves the Seven, Super Seven, Sprint, Super Sprint, Classic, Roadsport and HPC? Is there a good model guide or buyer's guide anywhere?

I have to be honest I've been a little sceptical about the price difference between the Caterhams and the various clones in the past. However, the sheer number of Caterhams out there gives you a much wider choice and the general standard does seem to be higher. I don't mind spending a bit more (compared to kit clone money) as long as I can get most of it back. Do you think there are any which represent particularly good value at the moment or even the potential to go up? Secondly, do you think regular track use will have an effect on the value (providing its maintained accordingly)?

And finally, do you think there are any models or features in particular to look out for on a road, track day, sprint and possibly autotest car?

ETA: Slightly random comment, but am I right in thinking that a limited slip diff is quite a rare option?

Hmm, another one that looks quite tempting:
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1056246.htm

Edited by Chris71 on Tuesday 2nd June 10:35

[ewenm]

You need to read The Magnificent 7.

I can't remember when the switchover to the Dedion tube happened, but I think all K-series cars are DeDion... but I have a nagging doubt that perhaps some academy cars are live axle.

Personally, I'd go for a k-series example - they are beautifully balanced cars, there's a big tuning industry out there for them and they are that bit more modern than some of the other common engines.

I don't think track use will cause any quicker depreciation than normal. As an example, I paid £13k for my 7 in 2000 and would expect to get about £10k for it if I sold it now. It's been tracked a fair bit and done loads of miles but is in good condition and has a few upgrades.

Edit: LSDs aren't all that common but are a relatively easy upgrade (I've got one sat in a box in the garage waiting to be fitted).

Edited by ewenm on Tuesday 2nd June 10:36