Could Ford make premium brand cars?

[Trooper2]

schmalex said:

Isn't Mercury their premium brand in the US?

Nope!

But deeen has it correct.

deeen said:

Lincoln ?

[Jimbeaux]

chimera40 said:

Yip, know that they don't own Jag and Aston now, just pointing out that they have already tried that one and still managed to feck it up, change of hands and look at these two brands now.

Something wrong at the top I think.

Edited by chimera40 on Sunday 2nd August 22:26

The Jags that you are praising now were designed by Jag under Ford. Tata had nothing to do with the Jags you see being sold today.

[Jimbeaux]

TVR Moneypit said:

chimera40 said:

Yip, know that they don't own Jag and Aston now, just pointing out that they have already tried that one and still managed to feck it up, change of hands and look at these two brands now.

Something wrong at the top I think.

Jaguar and Aston Martin both went from strength to strength under Fords stewardship.

Not to mention the quality was sorted under that stewardship as well.

[Jimbeaux]

After_Shock said:

Both brands are still far too integrated into ford to simply split off altogether, the next gen cars will show the true form under the new ownership.

How do you think they will show at that time? Better or gutted?

[Jimbeaux]

Alfa_75_Steve said:

I wouldn't say Mercedes make nice interiors these days, and BMWs only look OK in better specced cars - ES and SE spec. are generally dire and very spartan.

Audi have it spot on, IMHO, and obviously I love Alfa interiors.

The problem with Lexus interiors is that they do have an air of 'Currys' about them, and there are far too many similarities between a Lexus interior and that of an Auris / Prius / Avensis. In fact, the navigation units appear to be pretty much lifted straight from the Prius...

Do they still have nasty '1970s radio alarm' style clocks?

ETA: Yes, on the above evidence, they do. Classy.

Edited by Alfa_75_Steve on Monday 3rd August 22:36

I think it is humorous that a Caddy or Lincoln interior looks much better than the Bimmer or Merc just shown, costs about half the price, yet gets slated as "Bad Yank interiors"....with no mention of the bland offerings of the "Prestige brands".

http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/hirezpics/c...

Edited by Jimbeaux on Tuesday 4th August 02:12

[Jimbeaux]

thunderbelmont said:

Lexus is to Toyota, what Acura is to Honda, and Infiniti is to Nissan.

They are names to sell to people who see the "owner" as inferior Japanese mass produced grey crap.

"You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig" (Barack Obama. 2008)

In the US, you have premier own brands: Lincoln (Ford) and Cadillac (GM)

Compared to what we're used to in terms of Luxory (RR, Bentley, etc..) they are Morris Marina's with a bit of veneer.

Though saying that, Caddy has really picked up it's game, the CTS-V is pretty damn awesome (try searching You Tube for the CTS-V's lap of the 'Ring)

Could Ford make a premium brand car. Their designers could come up with it, but by the time the committee's and bean counters have finished, it'll be a Mk1 Consul Granada with an Essex V6, and vinyl seats. They don't have the bottle to produce a world market luxury model.

Volvo is NOT a luxury brand, regardless of what some Volvo drivers seem to think. I own a V70 T5, and it's not luxury at all. It's not bad, but it's a sea of grey plastic, quite comfortable, but not as good as my ol' 3.0L Senator, handles pretty well for a barge, goes like greased weasel st, in general does what it says on the tin. It's a Ford, build in the DAF factory in Belgium!

Ford would need to start from scratch, and stand at a distance so nobody really knows it's them (or no one will buy them!)

I know, let's call it an Edsel.

Whoops...

If Ford sold one for what a RR or Bentley cost, of course they could do one. You just compared a Lincoln and Caddy ($40,000) to a RR or Bentley ($you tell me?)

[350GT]

Jimbeaux said:

Alfa_75_Steve said:

I wouldn't say Mercedes make nice interiors these days, and BMWs only look OK in better specced cars - ES and SE spec. are generally dire and very spartan.

Audi have it spot on, IMHO, and obviously I love Alfa interiors.

The problem with Lexus interiors is that they do have an air of 'Currys' about them, and there are far too many similarities between a Lexus interior and that of an Auris / Prius / Avensis. In fact, the navigation units appear to be pretty much lifted straight from the Prius...

Do they still have nasty '1970s radio alarm' style clocks?

ETA: Yes, on the above evidence, they do. Classy.

Edited by Alfa_75_Steve on Monday 3rd August 22:36

I think it is humorous that a Caddy or Lincoln interior looks much better than the Bimmer or Merc just shown, costs about half the price, yet gets slated as "Bad Yank interiors"....with no mention of the bland offerings of the "Prestige brands".

http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/hirezpics/c...

Edited by Jimbeaux on Tuesday 4th August 02:12

It looks nice, yes, but I'm surprised you didn't go "Oh... That's a bit of a dissapointment" when you say in it. The knobs, and buttons felt a bit, I don't know, wrong, the centre console was the squeakiest, most annoying I have yet to witness, and it just felt 'squeaky. I've sat in Beemers, and although in my mind they are bland, they don't make a noise, even the older ones. The quality is there, but with the Lincoln, you can see that it will be a squeaky annoyance very soon. The 'rubberised' plastics were nice ans squishy, but should they creak when you press on them? Blurgh. I still think they have a way to go getting the quality right, 9despite them looking nice).

[Jimbeaux]

350GT said:

Jimbeaux said:

Alfa_75_Steve said:

I wouldn't say Mercedes make nice interiors these days, and BMWs only look OK in better specced cars - ES and SE spec. are generally dire and very spartan.

Audi have it spot on, IMHO, and obviously I love Alfa interiors.

The problem with Lexus interiors is that they do have an air of 'Currys' about them, and there are far too many similarities between a Lexus interior and that of an Auris / Prius / Avensis. In fact, the navigation units appear to be pretty much lifted straight from the Prius...

Do they still have nasty '1970s radio alarm' style clocks?

ETA: Yes, on the above evidence, they do. Classy.

Edited by Alfa_75_Steve on Monday 3rd August 22:36

I think it is humorous that a Caddy or Lincoln interior looks much better than the Bimmer or Merc just shown, costs about half the price, yet gets slated as "Bad Yank interiors"....with no mention of the bland offerings of the "Prestige brands".

http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/hirezpics/c...

Edited by Jimbeaux on Tuesday 4th August 02:12

It looks nice, yes, but I'm surprised you didn't go "Oh... That's a bit of a dissapointment" when you say in it. The knobs, and buttons felt a bit, I don't know, wrong, the centre console was the squeakiest, most annoying I have yet to witness, and it just felt 'squeaky. I've sat in Beemers, and although in my mind they are bland, they don't make a noise, even the older ones. The quality is there, but with the Lincoln, you can see that it will be a squeaky annoyance very soon. The 'rubberised' plastics were nice ans squishy, but should they creak when you press on them? Blurgh. I still think they have a way to go getting the quality right, 9despite them looking nice).

Again, you can't ignore price difference, IMO. BTW, my BMW squeaks....my Jaguar does not.

[350GT]

but the jaguar is a purchased marque, not one of Fords creations

[Jaguar steve]

Jimbeaux said:

TVR Moneypit said:

chimera40 said:

Yip, know that they don't own Jag and Aston now, just pointing out that they have already tried that one and still managed to feck it up, change of hands and look at these two brands now.

Something wrong at the top I think.

Jaguar and Aston Martin both went from strength to strength under Fords stewardship.

Not to mention the quality was sorted under that stewardship as well.

The whole quality ethos certainly changed under Fords ownership and athough they did make significant improvements in some areas Jaguars were accountant engineered to within an inch of their life much to the detriment of durability. Ask any X or early S Type owner if their cars have been problem free, the 1997 to 2003 XJ had significant issues as a direct result of cost cutting and a recent Which? survey put both the S Type and new XF in the top ten most unreliable cars.

[900T-R]

Garlick said:

All of the current Fords handle very well indeed, and I have driven all of the current models.

I'm still puzzled about why everybody thinks Fords handle that well - take the Mondeo which is being regarded as the gold standard in its class by UK car hacks. I found it rather barge-like and it felt every inch of its rather generous dimensions. It was one of the 2.5 litre 5-pots and I really felt body control was a bit lacking (strangely, because a similarly specced S-Max was rather fine ). The controls were rather light and free of real feel, too. In contrast, the Insignia we had felt a lot more compact, wieldy and 'together'.

I think motoring journalists in general may be too preoccupied with on-limit handling and sometimes not sensitive enough about how the car feels at low to moderate (lateral) acceleration rates - and it's the latter that defines whether one feels 'at one' with a car or strangely detached from the action.

Additionally, what kills Fords from a showroom appeal perspective IMO is the rather garish interior detailing. Less is more, folks (especially if you can't afford decent materials)!

Edited by 900T-R on Tuesday 4th August 07:20

[LuS1fer]

People who are so persistently anal about interiors scare me. It's a car, who frickin' cares, I just want to drive it not live in it.

[10 Pence Short]

Depends on your definition of 'premium'.

Premium to me is buidling a car so the mechanical and electrical components perform at a high level with reliability.

Which is why I put a premium on many Japanese cars over their European equivalents.

It's all very well having soft touch plastics and a nice cabin to wait for the AA in, but I'd rather not be waiting for them in the first place.

[irocfan]

Alfa_75_Steve said:

That's really bad.

I'm sure the SC is just as bad - just to add to the 'appeal', the exterior is bloody awful, too.

looks like a bloody "Transformer"

[HellDiver]

900T-R said:

Garlick said:

All of the current Fords handle very well indeed, and I have driven all of the current models.

I'm still puzzled about why everybody thinks Fords handle that well - take the Mondeo which is being regarded as the gold standard in its class by UK car hacks. I found it rather barge-like and it felt every inch of its rather generous dimensions. It was one of the 2.5 litre 5-pots and I really felt body control was a bit lacking (strangely, because a similarly specced S-Max was rather fine ). The controls were rather light and free of real feel, too. In contrast, the Insignia we had felt a lot more compact, wieldy and 'together'.

I fully agree with you 900T-R. I drive a number of cars during my daily work, Fords, Vauxhalls, VW Group, Toyota.

We've boggo 1.8 Mondeos, right up to ST220 and STTDCI in the previous model, we've diesel Vectras right up to VXR spec, and some very, very nice Passat W8. I find the Fords to handle worst of the lot, the Mondeos are wallowy and crashy. The Vectras, surprisingly are the best handling of the lot, closely followed by the old Passats.

Only the Avensis handles worse than the Mondeos.

As it is my current hack at work, by choice, is a 9 year old Passat with the V6 TDi. Fast, comfortable, and can do a day's driving on a tank of dinojuice.

[tom g]

thunderbelmont said:

Volvo is NOT a luxury brand, regardless of what some Volvo drivers seem to think. I own a V70 T5, and it's not luxury at all. It's not bad, but it's a sea of grey plastic, quite comfortable, but not as good as my ol' 3.0L Senator, handles pretty well for a barge, goes like greased weasel st, in general does what it says on the tin. It's a Ford, build in the DAF factory in Belgium!

"Luxury" brand is questionable, but Volvo is definately a "premium" brand (i.e. it costs more than run of the mill stuff)

It's worth noting that Volvos are designed completely separately from Fords, so can't really be considered as a "premium ford".

Ford of Europe vehicles are now all designed in Germany, Volvos in sweden, and if anything, Volvo's design practices are influencing Ford's (not a bad thing!)

Edited by tom g on Tuesday 4th August 09:58

[Kawasicki]

I've driven the previous model fiesta a fair bit and I really liked it, nice steering, grippy and fun with reasonable ride. I much prefer it to the VW Polo or the Ibiza.

Yes Ford can build a premium product, the GT(40) is a perfect example!

[Jimbeaux]

Jaguar steve said:

Jimbeaux said:

TVR Moneypit said:

chimera40 said:

Yip, know that they don't own Jag and Aston now, just pointing out that they have already tried that one and still managed to feck it up, change of hands and look at these two brands now.

Something wrong at the top I think.

Jaguar and Aston Martin both went from strength to strength under Fords stewardship.

Not to mention the quality was sorted under that stewardship as well.

The whole quality ethos certainly changed under Fords ownership and athough they did make significant improvements in some areas Jaguars were accountant engineered to within an inch of their life much to the detriment of durability. Ask any X or early S Type owner if their cars have been problem free, the 1997 to 2003 XJ had significant issues as a direct result of cost cutting and a recent Which? survey put both the S Type and new XF in the top ten most unreliable cars.

XF most unreliable?? Link?

[DB7 pilot]

As a devotee of Astons built under Ford's stewardship I'll venture an opinion.



My baby. Ford didn't have much practical input apart from writing cheques and 'There's the parts bin, help yourself', but all credit to them for giving the design team the freedom to create this.

They did pull Aston up off it's knees with this model and it's laid the foundation for the new models you see today.

Good thread btw.

Mark.

[LuS1fer]

Kawasicki said:

I've driven the previous model fiesta a fair bit and I really liked it, nice steering, grippy and fun with reasonable ride. I much prefer it to the VW Polo or the Ibiza.

Yes Ford can build a premium product, the GT is a perfect example!

I agree.

2nd part EFA as it's not a GT40, just a GT, although maybe it was just a clue.

IIRC, cars like the RS500 Cosworth had no problem being perceived as valid competition to M3s of the time but times have moved on.

I have a petrol Mondeo and find the handling to be reasonable although I read on one of the forums that you have to specify the top-line damper kit to get the handling. No doubt all the Press cars had this but there would be nothing new in Press cars having a few grands worth of extras to create a false impression.