Does anyone know the history of this caterham?

[Nerra]

Had my eye on this for a while now but being in Sheffield, I can't exactly 'nip down' and have a look. Thought it would be worth asking the question as someone might have known the previous owner etc etc.

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1114846.htm

I'm sure I would probably have better luck on blatchat but I'm still sorting my membership and so I can't post yet.

[rubystone]

As an aside - when the R400 race series entrants switched to Duratecs, a lot of ex-race engines, 'boxes and exhausts came onto the market. I personally brokered the sale of several "kits" and some engines had better provenances than others.

I'm not saying that this car has one of those engines, but anyone looking at a car with such an engine could always see if Minsiter has the engine number and ECU on record as having come from an ex racecar....

[Nerra]

Thanks Rubystone, thats definitely worth knowing. Would you say its a bad thing if it did come from an ex-race car? I know race engines are pushed really hard but in most cases they are also maintained to a much higher standard, what are your thoughts?

Do you think its value is affected negatively due to the engine conversion? I'm almost surprised it hasn't sold and so I'm looking for the negatives, maybe I'm just too cynical

[Tango7]

I know the previous owner of this car. I believe he only got rid of it through lack of use and moved on to a Lotus Exige S. If you are serious about buying it, I can drop him a line to see if he will get in touch.

[Nerra]

Tango7 said:

I know the previous owner of this car. I believe he only got rid of it through lack of use and moved on to a Lotus Exige S. If you are serious about buying it, I can drop him a line to see if he will get in touch.

That would be fantastic Tango as I am very serious about buying it.

[BertBert]

Yep, looks a good age/condition to buy- good price perf. With that level of performance though, you need to make sure of the history and current condition of the engine thus avoiding the potential for expensive rebuilds.

Bert

[Chris71]

If that's in good nic I'd be very tempted. That seemed to be the sort of price that base-spec Superlights were going for when I was looking.

Actually of the two Superlights I nearly bought for that sort of price one turned out to be a kit built Roadsport illegally passed off by the factory as a Superlight and the other, which was a genuine example, suddenly dissapeared off the market when the owner decided it was worth substantially more... Rant over.

[Nerra]

BertBert said:

Yep, looks a good age/condition to buy- good price perf. With that level of performance though, you need to make sure of the history and current condition of the engine thus avoiding the potential for expensive rebuilds.

Bert

Thanks Bert. Hopefully if I do get in touch with the previous owner those question will be answered.

[Nerra]

Chris71 said:

If that's in good nic I'd be very tempted. That seemed to be the sort of price that base-spec Superlights were going for when I was looking.

Actually of the two Superlights I nearly bought for that sort of price one turned out to be a kit built Roadsport illegally passed off by the factory as a Superlight and the other, which was a genuine example, suddenly dissapeared off the market when the owner decided it was worth substantially more... Rant over.

Did you end up buying one Chris? How long ago were you looking? How did you find out about the Roadsport?

[fergus]

rubystone said:

As an aside - when the R400 race series entrants switched to Duratecs, a lot of ex-race engines, 'boxes and exhausts came onto the market. I personally brokered the sale of several "kits" and some engines had better provenances than others.

I'm not saying that this car has one of those engines, but anyone looking at a car with such an engine could always see if Minsiter has the engine number and ECU on record as having come from an ex racecar....

Mark, surely there's 'good provenance', then 'very heavy tuning input' to move from an R400 race car engine (circa 210hp?) to a claimed 245hp?

Personally, I'd want to see an invoice for the work done to the car and a recent dyno plot on a reputable, known dyno.

[Nerra]

It did seem like quite an optimistic number for said engine. Personally I'm not bothered if it only makes around 210 but it will definitely give me something to haggle on if they have claimed its 245bhp and its not.

I guess the next question is, if the dyno plot is correct then is it healthy for said engine to be running at that sort of power?

[Chris71]

Nerra said:

Chris71 said:

If that's in good nic I'd be very tempted. That seemed to be the sort of price that base-spec Superlights were going for when I was looking.

Actually of the two Superlights I nearly bought for that sort of price one turned out to be a kit built Roadsport illegally passed off by the factory as a Superlight and the other, which was a genuine example, suddenly dissapeared off the market when the owner decided it was worth substantially more... Rant over.

Did you end up buying one Chris? How long ago were you looking? How did you find out about the Roadsport?

Not a Superlight, no, I bought an ex-race Roadsport A, with most of the same toys on it. I spent about 2 months looking and saw about 6 cars in the flesh during that time. As usual with secondhand cars, the condition didn't always correlate to the age, the price or indeed the description on the ad, so beware!

The car that I nearly bought from the factory was quite a saga. The short answer is I got a friend to do an HPI check and this revealed various things including the chassis number.

Take a look at this: http://7faq.com/owbase/ow.asp?ChassisNumbers

Going on the above I was able to work out that it started life as a kit built 5-speed Roadsport. The HPI check also said it should be green. Caterham said it was a yellow 6-speed Superlight that had been through the company's Drive Experience program.

The guy I spoke to at Caterham (just before I did the HPI check) suddenly remembered something else he needed to do urgently when the subject of chassis numbers came up! By the time I got back to them that afternoon it had been sold to some other poor unfortunate. I say unfortunate ... it was actually a very smart car, fresh from a factory rebuild to near-Superlight spec, but it was still rather naughty of them to sell it as a real one, particularly at the price of a real one.

[fergus]

Nerra said:

It did seem like quite an optimistic number for said engine. Personally I'm not bothered if it only makes around 210 but it will definitely give me something to haggle on if they have claimed its 245bhp and its not.

I guess the next question is, if the dyno plot is correct then is it healthy for said engine to be running at that sort of power?

It's as healthy as the amount of prep and strengthening mods that have gone into the motor. For that sort of power from a K, I'd want to see evidence of a full dynamic balance on the bottom end, steel rods and rod bolts, steel flywheel, forged pistons, steel oil pump rotor, possibly uprated big end bearings (depends who built the engine), mods to the gudgeon pin on the piston (allow it to float), liners being at correct height, etc, etc.

Find out who built the engine first if I was you. As has also been said, make sure it's a real superlight.

[Nerra]

Chris71 said:

Nerra said:

Chris71 said:

If that's in good nic I'd be very tempted. That seemed to be the sort of price that base-spec Superlights were going for when I was looking.

Actually of the two Superlights I nearly bought for that sort of price one turned out to be a kit built Roadsport illegally passed off by the factory as a Superlight and the other, which was a genuine example, suddenly dissapeared off the market when the owner decided it was worth substantially more... Rant over.

Did you end up buying one Chris? How long ago were you looking? How did you find out about the Roadsport?

Not a Superlight, no, I bought an ex-race Roadsport A, with most of the same toys on it. I spent about 2 months looking and saw about 6 cars in the flesh during that time. As usual with secondhand cars, the condition didn't always correlate to the age, the price or indeed the description on the ad, so beware!

The car that I nearly bought from the factory was quite a saga. The short answer is I got a friend to do an HPI check and this revealed various things including the chassis number.

Take a look at this: http://7faq.com/owbase/ow.asp?ChassisNumbers

Going on the above I was able to work out that it started life as a kit built 5-speed Roadsport. The HPI check also said it should be green. Caterham said it was a yellow 6-speed Superlight that had been through the company's Drive Experience program.

The guy I spoke to at Caterham (just before I did the HPI check) suddenly remembered something else he needed to do urgently when the subject of chassis numbers came up! By the time I got back to them that afternoon it had been sold to some other poor unfortunate. I say unfortunate ... it was actually a very smart car, fresh from a factory rebuild to near-Superlight spec, but it was still rather naughty of them to sell it as a real one, particularly at the price of a real one.

Wow, it just goes to show you've got to do all your checks no matter who you're buying from.

[Nerra]

fergus said:

Nerra said:

It did seem like quite an optimistic number for said engine. Personally I'm not bothered if it only makes around 210 but it will definitely give me something to haggle on if they have claimed its 245bhp and its not.

I guess the next question is, if the dyno plot is correct then is it healthy for said engine to be running at that sort of power?

It's as healthy as the amount of prep and strengthening mods that have gone into the motor. For that sort of power from a K, I'd want to see evidence of a full dynamic balance on the bottom end, steel rods and rod bolts, steel flywheel, forged pistons, steel oil pump rotor, possibly uprated big end bearings (depends who built the engine), mods to the gudgeon pin on the piston (allow it to float), liners being at correct height, etc, etc.

Find out who built the engine first if I was you. As has also been said, make sure it's a real superlight.

Thats a massive help, thanks fergus.

The advert says "Upgraded Exhaust System, Fully balance Crank / Flywheel" which would suggest some work has been done.

I think my best bet at the moment is if Tango comes through with his contact and then I can hopefully verify all this info and get the real low down on the vehicle.

I've not rang the garage yet but I don't have much faith in garages as they will normally tell you anything to get a sale.

I don't suppose any of you are near West Sussex? Would be handy to have someone with some real knowledge and experience by my side when I go to look at it.

[Chris71]

Nerra said:

Wow, it just goes to show you've got to do all your checks no matter who you're buying from.

The whole thing was a bit odd. If they'd been upfront about its history and priced it accordingly I'd have bitten their arm off - I was looking for a track car principally, so a reconditioned 'experience car' with some nice go-faster bits on it would have been perfect.

[Nerra]

Well I gave the garage a quick ring and they claim to have a folder full of all the documents which support the work that has been done to the engine. I asked if I could have the number/name of the specialist who carried the work out so that I could give them a ring and the guy said he would ring me back after getting the info.

He said there is fine misting of oil on the sump and a slight rattle from a release bearing at the top of the clutch? I presume he's talking about the thrust bearing?
Apparently an overseas buyer who was previously interested wanted these sorting at their own (the buyers) cost so the garage got a quote from their specialist to carry out the work and it came to £900.
So the garage has turned round and said that if they do carry this work out that they will be adding it on to the price.

In my experience of thrust bearings, if thats what he's on about, they tend to rattle a bit anyway and the fine misting of oil is not a biggy, what do you guys think?

[casbar]

My R300's clutch/gearbox sounds like a bag of nails when the engine is running and out of gear, nothing to worry about. Well if it is, mines been like it for 4 years

Fine mist of oil - would say they all do that, and I'd guess not an issue to sort out, could be coming from anywhere, but again, mine tends to have some oil underneath, probably from the gearbox I'd guess.

[Chris71]

Yep, Caterham powertrains can be quite vocal, don't forget the plate type limited slip diffs can be very noisy and that sometimes carries forwards to sound like a gearbox fault. The best thing is to go and have a look at cars of similar spec to the sort of thing you're hoping to buy and get an idea of what's normal. They do vary quite a lot and - assuming you're not already familiar with Caterhams - it would be good to get a feel for them.

Mine's not up to the sort of spec you're looking at, but you're welcome to come and kick some tyres if that's any help. Likewise, heading over to the local Lotus Seven Club meet would be a wise idea.

I don't know much about the longevity of the K-Series at high outputs, but the only one I looked at with circa 200bhp had receipts for numerous engine repairs (several head gaskets for example), so it's definitely worth reading into.

[fergus]

Nerra said:

He said there is fine misting of oil on the sump and a slight rattle from a release bearing at the top of the clutch? I presume he's talking about the thrust bearing?..... got a quote from their specialist to carry out the work and it came to £900.....
So the garage has turned round and said that if they do carry this work out that they will be adding it on to the price.

In my experience of thrust bearings, if thats what he's on about, they tend to rattle a bit anyway and the fine misting of oil is not a biggy, what do you guys think?

The thrust/clutch release bearing (CRB) is MAX £300 to do (even though the part is only circa £10). The source of the mist needs investigating, and I'd be surprised if it cost more than £50 to put right. Ask who provided the quote!