Advice on the right Caterham for me.
Discussion
Hi Guys.
Looking for some advice on the right Caterham for me.
I'm looking to pick up something in the mid teens and have been thinking about a K series Superlight, ideally an SV.
Would be used for between 6-10 track days a year, being a mix of UK and European circuits including an annual visit to the Ring and Spa.
Some European touring to Classic Le Mans and the yearly pilgrimage to the Alp doing the usual suspects of Stelvio, Rombo and Furka, etc. So I'll need a good heater too. Plus there'll be plenty of UK summer weekend runs in the Pennines, etc. It's a genuine 50/50 mixed bag.
Probably looking for 150/190 bhp.
I've got plenty of questions.
Is the wider front track on the Superlight pretty much the same as the SV's track anyway. But am I right in thinking you can pick up an SV Superlight! The SV is also about 25kgs heavier?
I've heard the Superlight is over braked as you don't really need the 4 pot calipers. But I do prefer the lower floor and racing seats as for me it's a better driving position, I'm a slim lad so size isn't really an issue. Although even for me there's bugger all elbo room in the none SV.
Have been told that the race seats don't hold any warmth so I'll go with some lightweight padding to help insulate them.
Also for track work I fancy going aeroscreen and using a windscreen for road work.
The Academy don't run 4 pot, dry sumps or LSD's but I've heard people say you should be looking for these. Is the dry sump in answer to a K series issue?
What's the reliability of the VHPD engine like in the Caterham. Trust they're the same 160 or 190 bhp as in the S1 Elise. Or should I be looking to stay around 150 bhp? Do I go butterfly or roller barrels? Although I suspect bhp will determine this.
Looking at my usage should I go full cage or FIA approved roll bar.
I believe the Superlight has an adjustable roll bar and heard a softer roll bar is a noticeable help when in the wet and on poor surfaces etc. But that the orange bar is a good half way house, so do I really need to go Superlight, etc.
What's the Watts linkage and S111 chassis geometry? Plus type 9 gear box?
You get the drift. I'm looking for the right car and set up but need to know what to look for.
Any advice and opinions would be a good start. Do have a look at my usage intentions.
Cheers, Jim.
Looking for some advice on the right Caterham for me.
I'm looking to pick up something in the mid teens and have been thinking about a K series Superlight, ideally an SV.
Would be used for between 6-10 track days a year, being a mix of UK and European circuits including an annual visit to the Ring and Spa.
Some European touring to Classic Le Mans and the yearly pilgrimage to the Alp doing the usual suspects of Stelvio, Rombo and Furka, etc. So I'll need a good heater too. Plus there'll be plenty of UK summer weekend runs in the Pennines, etc. It's a genuine 50/50 mixed bag.
Probably looking for 150/190 bhp.
I've got plenty of questions.
Is the wider front track on the Superlight pretty much the same as the SV's track anyway. But am I right in thinking you can pick up an SV Superlight! The SV is also about 25kgs heavier?
I've heard the Superlight is over braked as you don't really need the 4 pot calipers. But I do prefer the lower floor and racing seats as for me it's a better driving position, I'm a slim lad so size isn't really an issue. Although even for me there's bugger all elbo room in the none SV.
Have been told that the race seats don't hold any warmth so I'll go with some lightweight padding to help insulate them.
Also for track work I fancy going aeroscreen and using a windscreen for road work.
The Academy don't run 4 pot, dry sumps or LSD's but I've heard people say you should be looking for these. Is the dry sump in answer to a K series issue?
What's the reliability of the VHPD engine like in the Caterham. Trust they're the same 160 or 190 bhp as in the S1 Elise. Or should I be looking to stay around 150 bhp? Do I go butterfly or roller barrels? Although I suspect bhp will determine this.
Looking at my usage should I go full cage or FIA approved roll bar.
I believe the Superlight has an adjustable roll bar and heard a softer roll bar is a noticeable help when in the wet and on poor surfaces etc. But that the orange bar is a good half way house, so do I really need to go Superlight, etc.
What's the Watts linkage and S111 chassis geometry? Plus type 9 gear box?
You get the drift. I'm looking for the right car and set up but need to know what to look for.
Any advice and opinions would be a good start. Do have a look at my usage intentions.
Cheers, Jim.
Edited by jimsayshi on Sunday 22 November 17:06
Jim
Are you trailering to the ring and other circuits or driving there?
The superlights normally don't have a heater and if you are looking for more comfortable seats, you may be better off looking for a car with more horsepower, rather than less weight.
Any car can change between the screens - if you have captive nuts it only takes about 10 mins, so you can tour with a full screen and then go aero at the track.
There will be more cars without cage than with, and whether you need it or not depends on how hard you push it at a circuit and your view of safety. They do make it harder to get in and out of the car though.
Steve
Are you trailering to the ring and other circuits or driving there?
The superlights normally don't have a heater and if you are looking for more comfortable seats, you may be better off looking for a car with more horsepower, rather than less weight.
Any car can change between the screens - if you have captive nuts it only takes about 10 mins, so you can tour with a full screen and then go aero at the track.
There will be more cars without cage than with, and whether you need it or not depends on how hard you push it at a circuit and your view of safety. They do make it harder to get in and out of the car though.
Steve
I've got a Roadsport SV with 1.8 VVC engine (160bhp), which I use for roadtrips and some trackdays in the Netherlands, Belgium and France. As I don't hunt for the fastest laptimes I'm quite happy with the standard seats, the heater and the carpeting. Just a bit more comfortable on longer drives. I probably could do with the 'non SV' as I'm not the tallest person on the planet, but the extra with is perfect as extra storage space.
I'm going to take out all the floor mats though as these get completely soaked in the rain and they hardly dry in this time of year.
Not sure what the downside of the 4 pot breaks would be. Personally I'm quite happy with these. The SV should be heavier, but my car weights 566 kg with the tank half filled up.
I just switched to a FIA roll bar, although I'm not sure if I want to change it for a full cage now. It's just when you see a crash from time to time, you'll get to think of the consequences when you roll over during a trackday or when you crash at the Ring.
I'm going to take out all the floor mats though as these get completely soaked in the rain and they hardly dry in this time of year.
Not sure what the downside of the 4 pot breaks would be. Personally I'm quite happy with these. The SV should be heavier, but my car weights 566 kg with the tank half filled up.
I just switched to a FIA roll bar, although I'm not sure if I want to change it for a full cage now. It's just when you see a crash from time to time, you'll get to think of the consequences when you roll over during a trackday or when you crash at the Ring.
No need for an SV if you're slim. Std chassis is more intimate and lighter.
SL or SLR would be my suggestion. Probably the latter (dry sumped as mentioned above) as it has the guts to nail long straights against bigger engined tin tops on track.
Start with the FIA bar and weather gear. Cage is excellent - makes the car much stiffer and, IMO, safer. BUT it makes it a lot less practical (weather gear isn't an option with the nicer curved cage).
As for all the other bits and bobs...when you get a car, get it flat floored to your liking and then learn to drive it properly and live with it for a while. You can always tweak bits once you know what you're looking for. One of the great things about these cars is that you can personalise them relatively easily. And many of the elements you mention are very much subjective.
SL or SLR would be my suggestion. Probably the latter (dry sumped as mentioned above) as it has the guts to nail long straights against bigger engined tin tops on track.
Start with the FIA bar and weather gear. Cage is excellent - makes the car much stiffer and, IMO, safer. BUT it makes it a lot less practical (weather gear isn't an option with the nicer curved cage).
As for all the other bits and bobs...when you get a car, get it flat floored to your liking and then learn to drive it properly and live with it for a while. You can always tweak bits once you know what you're looking for. One of the great things about these cars is that you can personalise them relatively easily. And many of the elements you mention are very much subjective.
Thanks for all the advice.
Am I right in thinking a 12 to 17k SLR is going to be a 240bhp VHPD K series. And how often does that need rebuilding?
I've come from a Toyota block 240 Exige Cup that in reality weighted in at nearly 1000kg, not the 935kg started. And often felt the weight was becoming a issue, holding it back (particularly under acceleration) and starting to corrupt the power to weight enjoyment I was looking for.
So decided to look for something lighter but didn't want to go down the Elise S1. If I did that route I'd have to go Honda NA or SC and I know they cost more to run with their higher levels of maintenance. Reason for Honda is that the S1 Elise Sport 190 VHPD K series also needs high level of maintenance.
So for me the answer was to think about going really light helping to bring maintenance costs down while keeping performance up. But more importantly finding that perfect power to weight ration.
In my mind an Atom kicking out 300bhp in a 500kg car is an exercise in driver correction not driver connection. I know part of that is engine positioning, aero and the damping. But it's still over powered.
A 240 SLR sounds like it might be a bit of a skittish beast too. Is it? With that much power not being over the driven rear wheels. But I also know a Caterham is much easier to play with.
Any opinions on the perfect Caterham power to weight ration?
Am I right in thinking a 12 to 17k SLR is going to be a 240bhp VHPD K series. And how often does that need rebuilding?
I've come from a Toyota block 240 Exige Cup that in reality weighted in at nearly 1000kg, not the 935kg started. And often felt the weight was becoming a issue, holding it back (particularly under acceleration) and starting to corrupt the power to weight enjoyment I was looking for.
So decided to look for something lighter but didn't want to go down the Elise S1. If I did that route I'd have to go Honda NA or SC and I know they cost more to run with their higher levels of maintenance. Reason for Honda is that the S1 Elise Sport 190 VHPD K series also needs high level of maintenance.
So for me the answer was to think about going really light helping to bring maintenance costs down while keeping performance up. But more importantly finding that perfect power to weight ration.
In my mind an Atom kicking out 300bhp in a 500kg car is an exercise in driver correction not driver connection. I know part of that is engine positioning, aero and the damping. But it's still over powered.
A 240 SLR sounds like it might be a bit of a skittish beast too. Is it? With that much power not being over the driven rear wheels. But I also know a Caterham is much easier to play with.
Any opinions on the perfect Caterham power to weight ration?
SL = 135/140 bhp
SLR = 190 bhp
R300 = 160 bhp
R400 = 200 bhp
R500 = 230 bhp
IMHO 200bhp is the minimum if you do lots of trackdays. Any less and you will find yourself catching other cars in the corners and then them shooting off on the straights. 200bhp+ gives you enough grunt to get past most things.
You'll only get 240bhp+ with an aftermarket tuned engine.
4 pot brakes are hardly "overbraked" but they aren't essential - they are vented disks though so are more fade resistant.
The good things that you get with an SL over regular Caterhams are:
6 speed box
LSD
adjustable spring platforms (allows the ride height/corner weights to be adjusted)
4 pot brakes
wide track front suspension
some carbon bits (normally front wings, nosecone and dash but sometimes rear wings as well)
no carpets (they only get wet!)
The heater on a Caterham isn't up to much but does thaw your toes out when the car is stationary or in slow traffic.
SLR = 190 bhp
R300 = 160 bhp
R400 = 200 bhp
R500 = 230 bhp
IMHO 200bhp is the minimum if you do lots of trackdays. Any less and you will find yourself catching other cars in the corners and then them shooting off on the straights. 200bhp+ gives you enough grunt to get past most things.
You'll only get 240bhp+ with an aftermarket tuned engine.
4 pot brakes are hardly "overbraked" but they aren't essential - they are vented disks though so are more fade resistant.
The good things that you get with an SL over regular Caterhams are:
6 speed box
LSD
adjustable spring platforms (allows the ride height/corner weights to be adjusted)
4 pot brakes
wide track front suspension
some carbon bits (normally front wings, nosecone and dash but sometimes rear wings as well)
no carpets (they only get wet!)
The heater on a Caterham isn't up to much but does thaw your toes out when the car is stationary or in slow traffic.
A SLR would be 190bhp (officially, probably a bit less in reality of not re-mapped). Many have various mods. This one is for sale now and is rather a good spec if you want big power and are happy with modified... http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1365210.htm - no relation. 240bhp is R500 or modified as the last poster said. Original R500s probably over your price band by a few grand.
I have driven a car just like this and I find it no problem on track. Sure, you cannot floor it every second and in the wet getting the power down is a challenge. It's all usable though, inlcuding on the road so long as normal common sense in use.
There is often a school of thought that say the original 140bhp SL was the perfect Caterham. The cars don't need huge horsepower if well driven. I raced against academy cars recently and round the corners they are great and their times on awful tyres at Brands Indy would embarass almost every track day participant with big horsepower.
I have driven a car just like this and I find it no problem on track. Sure, you cannot floor it every second and in the wet getting the power down is a challenge. It's all usable though, inlcuding on the road so long as normal common sense in use.
There is often a school of thought that say the original 140bhp SL was the perfect Caterham. The cars don't need huge horsepower if well driven. I raced against academy cars recently and round the corners they are great and their times on awful tyres at Brands Indy would embarass almost every track day participant with big horsepower.
Don't put your hard earned into a K series - it's had its day in the sun...........look at a duratec or a sigma powered car - an SV will always sell faster than a standard 7 as there are less around.
I will get flamed for those statements - BUT they are true!
If you want to sell the car in the future look for an un-molested car - OR make sure CC has done all the main mods - If resale value is not an issue - then for high teens you have a lot to choose from with Duratec engined cars that are a little older (Raceline engine power in most of these )- a sigma engined car will be more expensive as most 3rd party builders have not used these in the 7.
;-)
I will get flamed for those statements - BUT they are true!
If you want to sell the car in the future look for an un-molested car - OR make sure CC has done all the main mods - If resale value is not an issue - then for high teens you have a lot to choose from with Duratec engined cars that are a little older (Raceline engine power in most of these )- a sigma engined car will be more expensive as most 3rd party builders have not used these in the 7.
;-)
Arewethereyet said:
...
I will get flamed for those statements - BUT they are true!...
In your mind no doubt I will get flamed for those statements - BUT they are true!...
The K is an older generation engine. But it's far from had its day. It's still a very usable engine. With less lard. And the exhaust on the correct side. And as it's an older gen, they tend to be somewhat cheaper.
The Duratec is the current "next big thing", but no doubt it will have its own issues once it has some proper miles under its belt. And then another next big thing will come out meaning that will have had its day
As for the SV, I guess as more fat people like to have a go in a 7, the SV may well become more popular. Mind you, at 6'4" and anywhere between 15st and 18.5st, I never found the need personally. And the whole point of the 7 was small and light...
The key determinant to how quickly a 7 sells is how realistic the seller is with price. As with most things. No one should continue under the illusion that they do not depreciate. They do. Albeit more slowly than most other cars. When selling, as with buying, you need to know the market.
If you're looking to do plenty of track days I'd look at getting an ex-racer. I've got an old Roadsport A, which comes with an LSD, dry sump, close ratio box, wide track and various other track orientated goodies.
Do you have any experience of owning Seven type cars before? If so, obviousdly you can go on prior experience, but if not I wouldn't worry too much about power figures. A blueprinted 1.6 Supersport with circa 140hp is still a rapid car by the standards of the usual UK track days. If you want to be fast on the straights forget a Seven - even with 200hp the equivalent engine in a closed wheel car like a Radical will monster it.
Finally, there's a chap on here who's about 8ft tall (okay, possibly a slight exageration...) and still drives a regular width chassis car, albeit with a lowered floor and a tall roll bar so, again, don't automatically assume you'll need an SV if you're tall and thin.
Do you have any experience of owning Seven type cars before? If so, obviousdly you can go on prior experience, but if not I wouldn't worry too much about power figures. A blueprinted 1.6 Supersport with circa 140hp is still a rapid car by the standards of the usual UK track days. If you want to be fast on the straights forget a Seven - even with 200hp the equivalent engine in a closed wheel car like a Radical will monster it.
Finally, there's a chap on here who's about 8ft tall (okay, possibly a slight exageration...) and still drives a regular width chassis car, albeit with a lowered floor and a tall roll bar so, again, don't automatically assume you'll need an SV if you're tall and thin.
if you know your elises then you will know all the k series engine issues. The SLR has the same engine as the VHPD elise 190 I think! And will therefore require similar levels of maintenance?
The non roller barrel r300 is imho plenty quick enough and is a standard engine that was fitted to many rover road cars in exactly the same state of tune so should in theory be a solid 100k mile engine requiring no maintenance!
The apolo tank is a bare minimum for track work and then oil temps get high so you could possibly go for an oil cooler. Dry sumps are obviously desirable but the standard unit doesn't hold much oil so regular checks are needed. Caterham do one that uses a remote tank that you can stick up to 9 litres of oil in for a bit more peace of mind. The dry sump also removes any concern with oil temps.
You do not need loads of power in one - they weigh 500kg's! I would try to steer clear of the track days where people will not let you past when you are in a quicker car!
The narrow body does ultimately feel nicer. Oxted do some leather cushion things for the tillets.
I like full cages! and don't see the point in a windscreen on one - even for longer journeys! You still have more protection in one than you would on a motorbike.
In summary - get a r300 superlight! I miss mine........
The non roller barrel r300 is imho plenty quick enough and is a standard engine that was fitted to many rover road cars in exactly the same state of tune so should in theory be a solid 100k mile engine requiring no maintenance!
The apolo tank is a bare minimum for track work and then oil temps get high so you could possibly go for an oil cooler. Dry sumps are obviously desirable but the standard unit doesn't hold much oil so regular checks are needed. Caterham do one that uses a remote tank that you can stick up to 9 litres of oil in for a bit more peace of mind. The dry sump also removes any concern with oil temps.
You do not need loads of power in one - they weigh 500kg's! I would try to steer clear of the track days where people will not let you past when you are in a quicker car!
The narrow body does ultimately feel nicer. Oxted do some leather cushion things for the tillets.
I like full cages! and don't see the point in a windscreen on one - even for longer journeys! You still have more protection in one than you would on a motorbike.
In summary - get a r300 superlight! I miss mine........
jimsayshi said:
I've come from a Toyota block 240 Exige Cup that in reality weighted in at nearly 1000kg, not the 935kg started. And often felt the weight was becoming a issue, holding it back (particularly under acceleration) and starting to corrupt the power to weight enjoyment I was looking for.
I'm almost certain, the 240cup is faster than an R300 in a straight line at higher speeds (at least if it's got a windscreen). allen l said:
jimsayshi said:
I've come from a Toyota block 240 Exige Cup that in reality weighted in at nearly 1000kg, not the 935kg started. And often felt the weight was becoming a issue, holding it back (particularly under acceleration) and starting to corrupt the power to weight enjoyment I was looking for.
I'm almost certain, the 240cup is faster than an R300 in a straight line at higher speeds (at least if it's got a windscreen). A windscreen makes a huge difference to high speed aero too and is not worth bothering with.
s
t - I'm beginning to sound like a blatchatter - shoot me now........oh, by the way, I'm not trying to do the old elises etc. are s
te and caterhams are great, I love elise type things too and would love a 240 cup. I just reckon I know what the original poster is on about as I have a 360bhp road / track car which feels utterly lame compared to my old r300 - it is however, much quicker past 70 mph!! Even without the screen.
+1 on the photos please. I'd love to see how that looks.Gassing Station | Caterham | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff