Continuous Insurance Enforcement
Discussion
Another way of extracting money from car owners.
Millions of uninsured motorists have until the end of the year to buy appropriate cover or face an unprecedented crackdown from police and the courts – including fines of up to £1,000 – even if their vehicle is not being driven.
Plans published recently by the Department for Transport (DfT) will soon make it an offence purely to be the registered keeper of an uninsured vehicle, while police will not have to prove it was in use.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/jan/10/motor-...
Millions of uninsured motorists have until the end of the year to buy appropriate cover or face an unprecedented crackdown from police and the courts – including fines of up to £1,000 – even if their vehicle is not being driven.
Plans published recently by the Department for Transport (DfT) will soon make it an offence purely to be the registered keeper of an uninsured vehicle, while police will not have to prove it was in use.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/jan/10/motor-...
The Continuous Insurance Enforcement proposals, due to be introduced in early 2011, will replace existing laws, whereby a prosecution can take place only if an uninsured motorist is caught at the wheel of a car. An initial penalty of £100 will be applied, followed by further fines of up to £1,000 levied by a magistrate's court.
Implementation of the new rules in 2011 will allow those drivers who are not currently using their cars, and have left them uninsured for one year, to seek exemption by sorting out off-road storage and make a "statutory off-road notification" (Sorn). They will then also be exempted from vehicle tax. Those who already have a Sorn in place can continue to use this.
The plans come as official reports suggest that up to 2 million people a year drive while uninsured, with more than 10% of motorists in some urban areas – including London, Merseyside and Manchester – having no cover.
Automatic number plate recognition cameras, increasingly used on thousands of UK roads, traffic junctions and even petrol station forecourts, as well as "spy vans", have led to thousands of people being stopped for having no insurance. Up to 500 cars a day are confiscated for not having insurance, of which 40% are crushed when their owners don't pay the fine to get them back.
However, experts fear that in the recession many car owners may be tempted to cut back on "non-essential" items, such as motor cover. A recent poll by Moneysupermarket, the comparison website, found the number who admitted driving without cover at some stage rose from 15% in 2008 to 20% last year.
The Motor Insurers' Bureau (Mib), which compensates up to 30,000 people a year who have been in accidents with uninsured drivers, welcomes the proposals, and groups including the Mib and the British Insurers Brokers Association (Biba) will spend the next few weeks lobbying politicians to make sure a change of government will not result in the plans being dropped.
This week Biba will will meet up with shadow secretary of state for transport, Theresa Villiers, to garner support from a possible future Conservative government and at the same time publish its manifesto for the year ahead, which will include a continued push for implementation of the new enforcement system.
"We will also be calling for a national campaign on motor insurance," says Graeme Trudgill, technical director at Biba. "This is key to resolving what is a massive problem [uninsured driving]."
However, not everyone believes these measures will be effective. Hugh Bladon, a retired nursing home owner and a founder member of the Association of British Drivers, said: "The government is interfering with what you do in every aspect of your private life. If you have a nice camera, you don't need to insure it. What the hell does it have to do with them if you choose not to insure a car, providing you are not using it on the road?"
Adrian Tink, motoring strategist at the RAC, pointed out: "What [the DfT] is trying to do is create a black and white situation. I can see the logic of it, but we need to make it clear how things will work so that innocent victims won't get caught by this measure."
Tink said one side-effect might be to penalise those in financial difficulties who want to keep their cars, but deliberately choose not to use them for a while and therefore don't renew their cover.
Without off-street parking, it is impossible to "Sorn" a car, thereby falling foul of the new legislation. The DfT's own figures estimate that 43% of households in Britain have neither a garage or a driveway, forcing car owners to park on the street. In London only 27% of homeowners have a garage.
An AA spokesman said: "We welcome the proposals but are concerned that the legislation should recognise that some people may innocently fall foul of the law if they inadvertently become uninsured, for example those who are hospitalised or out of the country for extended periods, or who change their car and the record change is delayed."
Where to turn when insurance doesn't cover an accident
The Motor Insurers' Bureau was set up in 1946 to compensate the victims of negligent, uninsured or untraced motorists. But it also compensates those injured in accidents where cause cannot be established.
Jamie Dempsey, 28, who runs his own falconry business in Ayrshire, has no clear recollection of the accident that cost him his lower right leg almost eight years ago.
He does remember heading from his home into Kirkoswold, a nearby village, to have a drink with some friends. But when they decided to stay there he set off, at about midnight, to walk the two miles home.
Dempsey says: "I just saw a very bright light out of the corner of my eye and then I was hit by a very large articulated lorry. When I came to, there were policemen telling me to stay down.
"I was in a state of shock and tried to get up, but my lower leg was hanging on just by the flesh and I fell down again."
Aside from his foot, which was too badly damaged to save, the accident also tore Jamie's shoulder out of its socket and he had lacerations across other parts of his body. A lorry driver was subsequently prosecuted for drink-driving and leaving the scene of the accident. But, despite Dempsey's blood being found on the vehicle, it was not possible to charge the driver with causing the accident – which meant he could not claim on the truck's insurance policy.
Luckily, the Motor Insurers' Bureau stepped in: "They have been very good to me, making interim payments, helping with my rehabilitation, including learning to drive a car and also setting up my falconry business."
Implementation of the new rules in 2011 will allow those drivers who are not currently using their cars, and have left them uninsured for one year, to seek exemption by sorting out off-road storage and make a "statutory off-road notification" (Sorn). They will then also be exempted from vehicle tax. Those who already have a Sorn in place can continue to use this.
The plans come as official reports suggest that up to 2 million people a year drive while uninsured, with more than 10% of motorists in some urban areas – including London, Merseyside and Manchester – having no cover.
Automatic number plate recognition cameras, increasingly used on thousands of UK roads, traffic junctions and even petrol station forecourts, as well as "spy vans", have led to thousands of people being stopped for having no insurance. Up to 500 cars a day are confiscated for not having insurance, of which 40% are crushed when their owners don't pay the fine to get them back.
However, experts fear that in the recession many car owners may be tempted to cut back on "non-essential" items, such as motor cover. A recent poll by Moneysupermarket, the comparison website, found the number who admitted driving without cover at some stage rose from 15% in 2008 to 20% last year.
The Motor Insurers' Bureau (Mib), which compensates up to 30,000 people a year who have been in accidents with uninsured drivers, welcomes the proposals, and groups including the Mib and the British Insurers Brokers Association (Biba) will spend the next few weeks lobbying politicians to make sure a change of government will not result in the plans being dropped.
This week Biba will will meet up with shadow secretary of state for transport, Theresa Villiers, to garner support from a possible future Conservative government and at the same time publish its manifesto for the year ahead, which will include a continued push for implementation of the new enforcement system.
"We will also be calling for a national campaign on motor insurance," says Graeme Trudgill, technical director at Biba. "This is key to resolving what is a massive problem [uninsured driving]."
However, not everyone believes these measures will be effective. Hugh Bladon, a retired nursing home owner and a founder member of the Association of British Drivers, said: "The government is interfering with what you do in every aspect of your private life. If you have a nice camera, you don't need to insure it. What the hell does it have to do with them if you choose not to insure a car, providing you are not using it on the road?"
Adrian Tink, motoring strategist at the RAC, pointed out: "What [the DfT] is trying to do is create a black and white situation. I can see the logic of it, but we need to make it clear how things will work so that innocent victims won't get caught by this measure."
Tink said one side-effect might be to penalise those in financial difficulties who want to keep their cars, but deliberately choose not to use them for a while and therefore don't renew their cover.
Without off-street parking, it is impossible to "Sorn" a car, thereby falling foul of the new legislation. The DfT's own figures estimate that 43% of households in Britain have neither a garage or a driveway, forcing car owners to park on the street. In London only 27% of homeowners have a garage.
An AA spokesman said: "We welcome the proposals but are concerned that the legislation should recognise that some people may innocently fall foul of the law if they inadvertently become uninsured, for example those who are hospitalised or out of the country for extended periods, or who change their car and the record change is delayed."
Where to turn when insurance doesn't cover an accident
The Motor Insurers' Bureau was set up in 1946 to compensate the victims of negligent, uninsured or untraced motorists. But it also compensates those injured in accidents where cause cannot be established.
Jamie Dempsey, 28, who runs his own falconry business in Ayrshire, has no clear recollection of the accident that cost him his lower right leg almost eight years ago.
He does remember heading from his home into Kirkoswold, a nearby village, to have a drink with some friends. But when they decided to stay there he set off, at about midnight, to walk the two miles home.
Dempsey says: "I just saw a very bright light out of the corner of my eye and then I was hit by a very large articulated lorry. When I came to, there were policemen telling me to stay down.
"I was in a state of shock and tried to get up, but my lower leg was hanging on just by the flesh and I fell down again."
Aside from his foot, which was too badly damaged to save, the accident also tore Jamie's shoulder out of its socket and he had lacerations across other parts of his body. A lorry driver was subsequently prosecuted for drink-driving and leaving the scene of the accident. But, despite Dempsey's blood being found on the vehicle, it was not possible to charge the driver with causing the accident – which meant he could not claim on the truck's insurance policy.
Luckily, the Motor Insurers' Bureau stepped in: "They have been very good to me, making interim payments, helping with my rehabilitation, including learning to drive a car and also setting up my falconry business."
It doesn't make it clear whether or not this applies only to vehicles parked on the road or not? It's already an offence to leave a vehicle on a road without 3rd party insurance in place so this may be a non-story? Surely there must be the option to SORN the vehicle and place it off the road?
Mad Dave said:
It doesn't make it clear whether or not this applies only to vehicles parked on the road or not?
Both. But as you point out, it is already an offence to 'use' a vehicle on a road or other public place without a valid policy of insurance.Mad Dave said:
Surely there must be the option to SORN the vehicle and place it off the road?
There will be, yes.Relevant legislation can be viewed here.
saaby93 said:
So suppose you have a project car and cant be bothered sorning it so leave it taxed all year around.
You keep it off road except when you want to drive it and then take out insurance for how ever many days.
Will that be ok?
If you are the RK of a vehicle (and that vehicle is one which requires a SORN declaration), and if you fail to declare it SORN when the insurance expires or is cancelled, then you would have committed an offence *.You keep it off road except when you want to drive it and then take out insurance for how ever many days.
Will that be ok?
[ * - subject to certain statutory exemptions. ]
Someone tell me what this has to do with it?
it said:
Aside from his foot, which was too badly damaged to save, the accident also tore Jamie's shoulder out of its socket and he had lacerations across other parts of his body. A lorry driver was subsequently prosecuted for drink-driving and leaving the scene of the accident. But, despite Dempsey's blood being found on the vehicle, it was not possible to charge the driver with causing the accident – which meant he could not claim on the truck's insurance policy.
Luckily, the Motor Insurers' Bureau stepped in: "They have been very good to me, making interim payments, helping with my rehabilitation, including learning to drive a car and also setting up my falconry business."
It says the truck was insured, so nothing to do with what theyre trying to achieveLuckily, the Motor Insurers' Bureau stepped in: "They have been very good to me, making interim payments, helping with my rehabilitation, including learning to drive a car and also setting up my falconry business."
SS2. said:
saaby93 said:
So suppose you have a project car and cant be bothered sorning it so leave it taxed all year around.
You keep it off road except when you want to drive it and then take out insurance for how ever many days.
Will that be ok?
If you are the RK of a vehicle (and that vehicle is one which requires a SORN declaration), and if you fail to declare it SORN when the insurance expires or is cancelled, then you would have committed an offence You keep it off road except when you want to drive it and then take out insurance for how ever many days.
Will that be ok?
Is that what theyre trying to put a stop to?
Edited by saaby93 on Monday 11th January 20:42
saaby93 said:
Tell me again
So suppose you have a project car and cant be bothered sorning it so leave it taxed all year around.
You keep it off road except when you want to drive it and then take out insurance for how ever many days.
Will that be ok?
I don't think so. Insurance industry lobbyists rule OK.So suppose you have a project car and cant be bothered sorning it so leave it taxed all year around.
You keep it off road except when you want to drive it and then take out insurance for how ever many days.
Will that be ok?
Most uninsured drivers will not be caught because the cars are owned by/insured by someone else, even if its their cousin/uncle/someone who doesn't even exist so the car will be on the MID and no fine issued. The law-breakerswho do get fined will not pay the fine, and will not go to court and the costs of enforcing it will be greater than the moneys recieved, so people wil not bother.
The majority of people who get caught and pay up will be innocent people who through some small oversight let there tax disc run on longer than the insuarance whilst having the car off the road. What a joke. There should be more police officers dedicated to responding to this crime in a proactive manner. The fines need to be upped considerably for those caught in the act. They should be of the order of several thousand pounds at least.
The majority of people who get caught and pay up will be innocent people who through some small oversight let there tax disc run on longer than the insuarance whilst having the car off the road. What a joke. There should be more police officers dedicated to responding to this crime in a proactive manner. The fines need to be upped considerably for those caught in the act. They should be of the order of several thousand pounds at least.
Magog said:
Most uninsured drivers will not be caught because the cars are owned by/insured by someone else, even if its their cousin/uncle/someone who doesn't even exist so the car will be on the MID and no fine issued.
Yep, you already spotted the flaw in the plan:R Tickle said:
Plans published recently by the Department for Transport (DfT) will soon make it an offence purely to be the registered keeper of an uninsured vehicle..
A predictable rise in vehicles that are either unregistered or registered to fictitious people/addresses will follow.From what I have read and understand it is an awful bit of legislation. As much as I hate the fact that people don't get insurance I think that trying to rely on an already imperfect system (MID) for this kind of administration is appalling. It won't work - it's not like car tax which the vehicle either has or does not have.
I can see a day in the not to distant future where the motorist gets so peed off from the nanny state poking its nose in the minutiae of peoples lives, that a campaign will start where folks will start to drive around without number plates.
A bit like the mask in that 'V for Vendetta' film.
A bit like the mask in that 'V for Vendetta' film.
SS2. said:
Mad Dave said:
It doesn't make it clear whether or not this applies only to vehicles parked on the road or not?
Both. But as you point out, it is already an offence to 'use' a vehicle on a road or other public place without a valid policy of insurance.Mad Dave said:
Surely there must be the option to SORN the vehicle and place it off the road?
There will be, yes.Relevant legislation can be viewed here.
It would seem it is reaching the top of the boiling pot.
dvd
saaby93 said:
Tell me again
So suppose you have a project car and cant be bothered sorning it so leave it taxed all year around.
You keep it off road except when you want to drive it and then take out insurance for how ever many days.
Will that be ok?
It's a nice morning. UnSORN it, insure it drive it park it, SORN in before midnight.So suppose you have a project car and cant be bothered sorning it so leave it taxed all year around.
You keep it off road except when you want to drive it and then take out insurance for how ever many days.
Will that be ok?
DVLA are going to get busy. Assume a fee for SORN will come next.
Mad Dave said:
It doesn't make it clear whether or not this applies only to vehicles parked on the road or not? It's already an offence to leave a vehicle on a road without 3rd party insurance in place so this may be a non-story? Surely there must be the option to SORN the vehicle and place it off the road?
R.Tickle said:
Implementation of the new rules in 2011 will allow those drivers who are not currently using their cars, and have left them uninsured for one year, to seek exemption by sorting out off-road storage and make a "statutory off-road notification" (Sorn). They will then also be exempted from vehicle tax. Those who already have a Sorn in place can continue to use this.
At the moment you have to be caught driving an uninsured vehicle.
Simply parking an uninsured vehicle on your drive and using it now and again to 'nip to the shops because it is raining' will no longer be possible. The uninsured vehicle will have to be SORN'ed...no SORN + no insurance whether the vehicle is on a road or not = collar felt. The requirement to be caught driving it is removed.
IMHO its a good move and could help to get a lot of uninsured rat bags off the road...or at least provide an avenue whereby they can be brought to book more readily rather than having to wait to catch them driving.
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