996/997 Cup race car - which is the wise choice?

996/997 Cup race car - which is the wise choice?

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Discussion

spad78

Original Poster:

149 posts

175 months

Saturday 23rd October 2010
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The price gap between the well prepped 996 Cup and the 2006 997 Cup is narrowing by the looks of it. Any thoughts on where the sensible cash goes? I'm thinking of the whole picture, raw speed, fun, cost of maintenance etc. I want to do some rounds of the GT Cup and / or Britcar. I've just finished my first season in motorsport and have a decent budget but I'm not Lord Moneybags. Any ideas?

Unfortunately, my 997.1 GT3 with Ceramics, Lightweight seats etc is going to make space if anyone is interested? Will get an ad up sometime later this week.

jimmyslr

798 posts

272 months

Saturday 23rd October 2010
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A friend and I have thought about this as the 997 cups have come down a lot. The downside to a 997 seems to be sequential gearbox rebuilds/damage, engine which needs more love re warming up / limp mode dramas / rebuilds, no ABS, trickier to get to limit; in essence you need quite a bit of help to run it. It is newer and more competitive and ultimately faster than the 996 in the right hands. Steve Rance has written about this quite a bit as he raced both - have a search in archives. We ultimately figured the running costs however were a major step up from the 996 so didn't go there and held onto the 996 cup.

You might have a chat to CTR developments (speak to Richard Chamberlain). They have run every type of Porsche, including my 996 cup in the erstwhile Pork Open, and they also have a 997 cup they've just rebuilt that is, or at least was, for sale in this just rebuilt condition.

I am toying with selling my 996 cup too at a very competitive price as I'm mostly racing a Caterham now and there's only so many race cars a chap needs... happy to chat around that if you're interested. There's a few 996s around at 35-65 (top end of that is a bit optimistic!). The 997s can be had for 50-80 and you can probably negotiate well into the 40s at this time of year.

James

996TT_STEVO

4,078 posts

227 months

Saturday 23rd October 2010
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Obviously now is the time they are all going up for sale, you see them (both 96/97) anywhere between 45k and 80k, the issue is how many hours, rebuild, etc, etc, that is where the price difference is... you can even pick a 7Cup up for 50k, there is one up here where I stay, George Brewster's Car, but I would suspect (looking at that price) it will need some sort of build... I personally would do a 97 Cup, yip they don't have the ABS, but they are slightly quicker, I know a few guys in the US that have taken the ABS from the 96 and installed them in the 97 (obviously you would have to check race regs)... best thing is to talk to some of the guys in this circle, Glenn Mcmenamin is always on here, nice guy always takes time to help the lads out (sure someone mentioned his car was up for sale)... best of luck

Glenn McMenamin

2,305 posts

237 months

Saturday 23rd October 2010
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996 is deffo cheaper to run, mainly due to having a normal H Pattern gearbox, whereas as said, the 997 cup cars
Weak point is it's gearbox, and can be staggeringly expensive to rebuild, as I have found at twice in the last 2 seasons !

Also, beware that there are no longer any 996 cups shells in existence, so a bad crash could result in a total write off, unless a doner shell could be found.

996 is trickier to handle right on the limit, but does have the luxury of ABS, but don't be put off by the lack of ABS in the 997, as there is twice the amount of feel through the pedal than on the 996' and you can adjust the brake bias to Suit your personal style and for wet conditions.

Either car will see off pretty much anything road going on a track day, and there are still plenty of events to take them racing with too, GT3 Challenge being a great starting point.

Prices seem to be all over the place at the moment, as most of the Carrera Cup cars have hit the market, but there is quite a lot of difference in the prices.

Good luck, you won't look back if you buy one !

G.

Edited by Glenn McMenamin on Saturday 23 October 16:46

fioran0

2,410 posts

171 months

Saturday 23rd October 2010
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just to add to the posts above, ive had two 996 cups and now currently have a 2008 997 cup.
if you want to be competitive then really the 997 is the way to go, its much more of a car, vastly quicker and very much a baby R in a way the 996 isnt. the obvious paper stats or only the tip of the iceberg, once you get under it you really get to see a ton of changes. with the new 2010 car out in the wild now the gap back to the 996 is about to get very long indeed.
that being said all this comes at a price. running a 7 is a greatly different proposition in terms of time and cost over a 6. i found both my 6s to be very straightforward and they ran forever. the 7 needs a great deal more fine tuning, checking and is fragile as a result. the rewards for keeping on top of this though are huge so its very much worth the extra dough. the only question is whether you have it or not.

as mentioned above too, that gearbox doesnt take kindly to botched downshifts and is expensive to repair. the 7 also has no ABS but it does have a vastly superior braking setup that i prefer. any time ive had abs trigger on a track its been beyond making any difference.

if you want specifics feel free to ask though. i was trying, as im sure other were, to keep it general so it might actually be of some use.

Harris_I

3,225 posts

258 months

Saturday 23rd October 2010
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I echo all the thoughts on here. 997 a little easier to drive (and quicker) but if the regs of your series allow the 996 into a lower class, then you have a much cheaper season, and very competitive against similar power-to-weight Ginettas/Maseratis/Lotuses. The 997 boys out in Dubai tend to rebuild their gearboxes twice a season and have much bigger budgets. If you're not racing, 996 makes an amazing trackday missile and won't need a pit crew.

fioran0

2,410 posts

171 months

Saturday 23rd October 2010
quotequote all
Glenn McMenamin said:
Also, beware that there are no longer any 996 cups shells in existence, so a bad crash could result in a total write off, unless a donor shell could be found.
my 6 was clipped in the rear corner and turned sideways, being t-boned by another car diving into the corner. hit right behind the door and damaged the shell. didnt look bad but was irrepairable.
this moved me to a 7..... and i rehomed the 6 into a donor road shell and created a custom street car with an interior.
doing this project alerted me to the paucity of 6cup parts already. it was a tad worrying given the toll racing takes on a car.

graemel

7,017 posts

216 months

Sunday 24th October 2010
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If budget allows the 7 with sequential has to be the way to go for both power and lap times. But that has to to come at a cost. A 6 with the 2002 bigger brakes and normal box is the far cheaper proposition. I've raced a 6 and a 6GT3RS but never driven the 7. Drove a 6 cup with sequential. What a delight. Makes life so much less fraught but I believe £18K rebuilds make it a little painful. Oh to win the euro millions and to indulge in my true vocation in life. wink

spad78

Original Poster:

149 posts

175 months

Sunday 24th October 2010
quotequote all
Thanks all, seems to back up what I originally thought that you gets what you pays for, even if you ends up paying for it all later smile Think I will go for a 7 and let you know how I get on!

johnycarrera

1,935 posts

229 months

Sunday 24th October 2010
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Total Layman's question here, but if the 997 sequential box breaks, can't you replace it with an H pattern, to save money but remain fairly competitive?

fioran0

2,410 posts

171 months

Sunday 24th October 2010
quotequote all
you absolutely can, i know cars running H patterns with strengthened internals.
the sequential is faster though, those full throttle upshifts are quick and the downs, especially when you have a blipper fitted are quick. it also makes the car much less of a handful. a 7cup with an H pattern is going to have a ton going on with it.
if all you want to do is run around then have at it, it will be perfect but if you are racing the sequential is far better.
im considering not racing next year, just tracking whenever i can instead and may do this very thing and store up the sequential however, and its a big one, its very much part of the cars total package and i just have this niggle that it wont feel right without it.
i might pick up a 6 cup and only use the 7 occasionally instead.

i believe quaife have an alternative sequential ready that is much much cheaper and as i understand it, less fragile too. last i heard they were trying to get series approval (without it its useless as you couldnt be legal to race with it) but i dont know if this happened or not. i also know they were struggling to get sales going. no one wants to be the first to try an untested in race conditions box. hopefully this changes as some competition in this area for all cup owners would be welcome.


Pete RS

305 posts

232 months

Monday 25th October 2010
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spad78 said:
Thanks all, seems to back up what I originally thought that you gets what you pays for, even if you ends up paying for it all later smile Think I will go for a 7 and let you know how I get on!
Adam, I am shopping for a 997 with Matt at present and being a bit sad I have a list of 2008 or newer cars for sale. I also know of a fair few 06/07 cars for sale, so if you want a chat give me a shout.

Bit of a minefield so be careful.

Cheers
Pete

The Wookie

13,909 posts

227 months

Monday 25th October 2010
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I'll also add that my 2010 car is up for sale at the moment. Maintained by Motorbase regardless of cost with full log book, no damage beyond minor cosmetic over the whole season, very low mileage with minimal testing done over the season and has a top 3 quali under its belt so pace isn't an issue!

PM me if you're interested

996TT_STEVO

4,078 posts

227 months

Monday 25th October 2010
quotequote all
Pete RS said:
spad78 said:
Thanks all, seems to back up what I originally thought that you gets what you pays for, even if you ends up paying for it all later smile Think I will go for a 7 and let you know how I get on!
Adam, I am shopping for a 997 with Matt at present and being a bit sad I have a list of 2008 or newer cars for sale. I also know of a fair few 06/07 cars for sale, so if you want a chat give me a shout.

Bit of a minefield so be careful.

Cheers
Pete
Hi Pete... forgot to say Congrats on your Championship Class win, well done thumbup

spad78

Original Poster:

149 posts

175 months

Monday 25th October 2010
quotequote all
Hi Pete, be grateful if you could send me that list, I'll PM you my email. Did you get yourself a 997? Interested to hear how you made your decision in such a buyers market?

Harris_I

3,225 posts

258 months

Monday 25th October 2010
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Two more to add to your list if you're feeling a little adventurous (long way away!):

http://www.armotors.ae/show_car.htm?id=33

ARM run my car in the UAE. I know one of the 6 ARM cars had a crash about a year ago, but I don't recall either of these two being in a shunt, though please check. Paul is no nonsense and will give you an honest description. Current midmarket rate is AED5.77:GBP1.


Pete RS

305 posts

232 months

Monday 25th October 2010
quotequote all
996TT_STEVO said:
Pete RS said:
spad78 said:
Thanks all, seems to back up what I originally thought that you gets what you pays for, even if you ends up paying for it all later smile Think I will go for a 7 and let you know how I get on!
Adam, I am shopping for a 997 with Matt at present and being a bit sad I have a list of 2008 or newer cars for sale. I also know of a fair few 06/07 cars for sale, so if you want a chat give me a shout.

Bit of a minefield so be careful.

Cheers
Pete
Hi Pete... forgot to say Congrats on your Championship Class win, well done thumbup
I thank you smile I actually won the series overall in the end (as of Saturday night at the motorsports awards dinner) smile

Edited by Pete RS on Monday 25th October 17:24


Edited by Pete RS on Monday 25th October 17:25

DG27

153 posts

168 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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After reading many posts like this one, I have finally done it.

The two plus years of racing a 968 have now been 'upgraded' to a 2012 gen 2 cup car to track this year and then actively race in 2016 after some focussed coaching.

Very excited, have owned 911's for over a decade before swapping the sports road car to that of an Italian persuasion.....no regrets in that...the Porsche itch has however yet again been properly scratched.

Out in a couple of weeks for first day testing......hoping for kind weather although have two good sets of wets.

D

Steve Rance

5,435 posts

230 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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Does the 2012 car have adjustable brake bias? If so, make sure that you get coaching with a 997 cup specialist - preferably a front running Carrera cup driver. These cars have a very specific driving technique and bias set up is key to extracting maximum performance. I had a bias setting for quali, early race and late race and sometimes ( not often) adjusted it by corner. Also wet, dry and intermediate conditions will also require different bias settings. It's good to learn the concept early in your training as it can be a bit of a curve ball if learned later.

Have fun!

slodge

512 posts

161 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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DG27 said:
After reading many posts like this one, I have finally done it.

The two plus years of racing a 968 have now been 'upgraded' to a 2012 gen 2 cup car to track this year and then actively race in 2016 after some focussed coaching.

Very excited, have owned 911's for over a decade before swapping the sports road car to that of an Italian persuasion.....no regrets in that...the Porsche itch has however yet again been properly scratched.

Out in a couple of weeks for first day testing......hoping for kind weather although have two good sets of wets.

D
Congratulations!! A great move indeed, hope you have fun and create some amazing memories. Please keep us posted on how you get on.

I'm toying with doing the same in a 996 cup but struggling to find one.

Cheers

Slodge