Shooting sports with my new 7D...any tips?
Discussion
Just got my 7D (with grip and lovely little 85mm 1.8) and will be getting some pics at my sons indoor basketball game tommorow morning...whizzed through the manual (and have a 400d already) but just wondered if this was on the right tracks....
I'm shooting RAW only....cant see the point of adding a jpeg in???
Ap priority mode...set as low as possible yet avoiding too narrow a DOF issue.
AF servo mode....they will be running!
Centre point focus.
AWB...the gym lights are nasty so I will fix on the PC later.
Now, ISO - should I set it to a point that gives me a fast shutter or set the shutter where I need it and use auto ISO?
Also...anything else I should consider setting up in the 7D first? I'm assuming things like on board sharpening are fine left as standard?
oh....and 8FPS, jez thats fast. I can hardly shoot 1 shot when set on that. Pity there isnt a fast switch to flick it off and on when needed.....or is there?
and anyone thinking of a 7D - get one, feels so much better than the 400D. Good size, but not crazy big and so well built. Very nice!
T
I'm shooting RAW only....cant see the point of adding a jpeg in???
Ap priority mode...set as low as possible yet avoiding too narrow a DOF issue.
AF servo mode....they will be running!
Centre point focus.
AWB...the gym lights are nasty so I will fix on the PC later.
Now, ISO - should I set it to a point that gives me a fast shutter or set the shutter where I need it and use auto ISO?
Also...anything else I should consider setting up in the 7D first? I'm assuming things like on board sharpening are fine left as standard?
oh....and 8FPS, jez thats fast. I can hardly shoot 1 shot when set on that. Pity there isnt a fast switch to flick it off and on when needed.....or is there?
and anyone thinking of a 7D - get one, feels so much better than the 400D. Good size, but not crazy big and so well built. Very nice!
T
I'd set the camera's back button(s) to auto-focus, rather than using a shutter button. I'm not sure of 7D's capability but if you can assign 2 buttons, set one with centre focus point and the other with any one of the selective focus points or even with multi-focus points. It might take some getting used to but it's much more versatile. I've been doing this for years.
And I'd try to get the WB correct at the venue rather than messing on PC after, but it's just me. I'd always try to get perfection on camera so that post-processing can be minimum.
And there should be H and L drive mode to switch fps?
And I'd try to get the WB correct at the venue rather than messing on PC after, but it's just me. I'd always try to get perfection on camera so that post-processing can be minimum.
And there should be H and L drive mode to switch fps?
Edited by Gemm on Friday 26th November 22:01
Tiggsy said:
WB makes sense - why not use the shutter button for AF?
because you dont always wan tto focus at the same time as taking a shot.Its much much much better spliting focus and shutter.
Theres a 3fps mode but go for 8 and dont mash the shutter.
You can assign different focus points to portait and landscape (a cfn) and I'm sure another button can be assigned a focus point (again in each orientation) joystick click always takes you between selected and center point.
Enable the cross mode too, and try the all af points tracking, in AI servo you pick a start focus point and it will track that subject through all the points (or try).
The AF speed cfn is all about how quick it switches targets , not how quick it tracks targers, so set appropriatly.
Theres some good white papers at canon on the 7D af and also some good videos.
If the lighting is bad but consistently bad (not a different kind of light for every other shot for example) it would be worth trying to get close at the venue. If it's all over the place you will be reliant on RAW and PP.
Sharpnesss form RAW ia all about how the file is processed when converting to RAW. IN camera settings affect the embedded thumbnail and any jpgs you take but the RAW will typically be independent of that.
I would suggest trying auto ISO and seeing how you feel about it. It's a bit difficult being specific without experience of the venue(s). Latterly I've been using it on my 1D3 and it works well with and, IMO, produces a greater feeling of consistent results than fixing ISO and one of Av/Tv. I think the 7D should be able to achieve something similar although I didn't specifically try it when I hired one.
One of the benefits of RAW +jpg is that you can have some vivid, instant and small samples available as soon as you have the shots - depending on how you have handled the WB question.
I found after a couple of thousand frames the shutter button activiation became more familiar so picking off one or two frames rather than a full burst was not too difficult. The button on the grip that was fitted to my rented unit seemed much more sensitive but that might have been down to handling differences.
Your list of settings sounds reasonable - taking into account subsequent suggestions posted - but realistically you'll just have to try it out and see what works and what doesn't. I found the viewfinder display so much better for tracking action than the 400D that that alone was worth the price of admission!
In terms of how quickly the focus responds to new subject matter ..... in general if you want to focus on an individual and not something that suddenly passes between you and the individual, you want a slow response. But if you are shooting with a need to jump from one subject to another a faster response may be more appropriate. With basketball and similar sports I could envisage both approaches being useful in different circumstances.
Sharpnesss form RAW ia all about how the file is processed when converting to RAW. IN camera settings affect the embedded thumbnail and any jpgs you take but the RAW will typically be independent of that.
I would suggest trying auto ISO and seeing how you feel about it. It's a bit difficult being specific without experience of the venue(s). Latterly I've been using it on my 1D3 and it works well with and, IMO, produces a greater feeling of consistent results than fixing ISO and one of Av/Tv. I think the 7D should be able to achieve something similar although I didn't specifically try it when I hired one.
One of the benefits of RAW +jpg is that you can have some vivid, instant and small samples available as soon as you have the shots - depending on how you have handled the WB question.
I found after a couple of thousand frames the shutter button activiation became more familiar so picking off one or two frames rather than a full burst was not too difficult. The button on the grip that was fitted to my rented unit seemed much more sensitive but that might have been down to handling differences.
Your list of settings sounds reasonable - taking into account subsequent suggestions posted - but realistically you'll just have to try it out and see what works and what doesn't. I found the viewfinder display so much better for tracking action than the 400D that that alone was worth the price of admission!
In terms of how quickly the focus responds to new subject matter ..... in general if you want to focus on an individual and not something that suddenly passes between you and the individual, you want a slow response. But if you are shooting with a need to jump from one subject to another a faster response may be more appropriate. With basketball and similar sports I could envisage both approaches being useful in different circumstances.
ok....reporting back.
Seemed to have no issues with the light...it was a school gym but uping the ISO added very little noise and let me shoot fast enough. Will take some getting used to the shutter...at 8fps it was hard to take one shot!
but....got some rather soft images:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/MrTiggs/BB....
This is very slightly cropped - the guy on the left was just inside the full image...yet it's soft/unfocused. I have attached the info:
This was with the 85mm 1.8 set at 2.0 (is this too open?) - 1600 shutter (using Aperture Prio. mode) Focus was AI servo with the centre point selected for focus point.
ISO set at 1600 - tried auto ISO and it defaulted to 3200 a lot.
Why so soft? Lots of the shots where like this. There where others where the person in the centre wasnt in sharp focus but someone off to one side was.....would it help the cam to use the "group" foucs area instead of the single point mode?
Lastly - I like the idea of using the AF button to hold the focus servo on when tracking the action instead of the half shutter (too easy to fire a shoot) - any idea how I stop the shutter from acting the focus (or do i not need to)
Seemed to have no issues with the light...it was a school gym but uping the ISO added very little noise and let me shoot fast enough. Will take some getting used to the shutter...at 8fps it was hard to take one shot!
but....got some rather soft images:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/MrTiggs/BB....
This is very slightly cropped - the guy on the left was just inside the full image...yet it's soft/unfocused. I have attached the info:
This was with the 85mm 1.8 set at 2.0 (is this too open?) - 1600 shutter (using Aperture Prio. mode) Focus was AI servo with the centre point selected for focus point.
ISO set at 1600 - tried auto ISO and it defaulted to 3200 a lot.
Why so soft? Lots of the shots where like this. There where others where the person in the centre wasnt in sharp focus but someone off to one side was.....would it help the cam to use the "group" foucs area instead of the single point mode?
Lastly - I like the idea of using the AF button to hold the focus servo on when tracking the action instead of the half shutter (too easy to fire a shoot) - any idea how I stop the shutter from acting the focus (or do i not need to)
Interesting.
2 comments - things I was told today.
The first may not be relevant and I have to confess I only half got the message - the conversation was interrupted, twice - but it relates to using flash and the effect of the new energy saving lightbulbs. I seem to recall reading something about it elsewhere so some research needed. Basically the result was a first frame too dark, the second one a wrong colour and the third frame OK. The problem is that some of the new bulbs are used in recessed ceiling lights and when on are not easy to identify. Unlikely you will find them in a school gym BUT there might be something similar that could upset WB as well as mess with the flash.
Second item was a story about an unresolved issue with a body that frequently focused all over the place rather than at the point it was supposed to ... presumably a one off.
Iirc there is a setting that allows you to specify whether or not you want to take a shot even if focus is not certain. It might be worth checking that and, if set to 'take anyway', try it the other way.
If you were using the central focus point the lens aperture should not have been a problem (not sure what it's reputation is for focus speed though but that's for another time). The focus system works with horizontal contrast lines and is best when there is some decent contrast in them. Now it strikes me that if the target area was at the centre of the image you posted you have a lot of black and not much contrast and you're in not the greatest light. (Yellow vest might be a little better but red is not a great assist for contrast.) Not much that is specifically horizontal contrast either so it is a bit of a challenge. Have you tried processing it through DPP to see if it offers up any clues about what was going on? DPP can, for example, show you the focus points used as an overlay on the image.
The focusing system has some very clever features BUT sometimes they may only suit a specific set of circumstances that sound right for your needs but actually are not quite there. You have to expect some 'failed' shots - the art is to find the settings that reduce the proportion of shots that are less good.
Of course the other thing that occurs to me is that, iirc, you have two new components - the 7D and the lens - so either one might be doing something that affects the result but you don't have any past experience with them to know whether one or the other or both items are imposing a learning curve on your activity. You may need to devise some tests that provide guidance ....
2 comments - things I was told today.
The first may not be relevant and I have to confess I only half got the message - the conversation was interrupted, twice - but it relates to using flash and the effect of the new energy saving lightbulbs. I seem to recall reading something about it elsewhere so some research needed. Basically the result was a first frame too dark, the second one a wrong colour and the third frame OK. The problem is that some of the new bulbs are used in recessed ceiling lights and when on are not easy to identify. Unlikely you will find them in a school gym BUT there might be something similar that could upset WB as well as mess with the flash.
Second item was a story about an unresolved issue with a body that frequently focused all over the place rather than at the point it was supposed to ... presumably a one off.
Iirc there is a setting that allows you to specify whether or not you want to take a shot even if focus is not certain. It might be worth checking that and, if set to 'take anyway', try it the other way.
If you were using the central focus point the lens aperture should not have been a problem (not sure what it's reputation is for focus speed though but that's for another time). The focus system works with horizontal contrast lines and is best when there is some decent contrast in them. Now it strikes me that if the target area was at the centre of the image you posted you have a lot of black and not much contrast and you're in not the greatest light. (Yellow vest might be a little better but red is not a great assist for contrast.) Not much that is specifically horizontal contrast either so it is a bit of a challenge. Have you tried processing it through DPP to see if it offers up any clues about what was going on? DPP can, for example, show you the focus points used as an overlay on the image.
The focusing system has some very clever features BUT sometimes they may only suit a specific set of circumstances that sound right for your needs but actually are not quite there. You have to expect some 'failed' shots - the art is to find the settings that reduce the proportion of shots that are less good.
Of course the other thing that occurs to me is that, iirc, you have two new components - the 7D and the lens - so either one might be doing something that affects the result but you don't have any past experience with them to know whether one or the other or both items are imposing a learning curve on your activity. You may need to devise some tests that provide guidance ....
Tiggsy said:
Lastly - I like the idea of using the AF button to hold the focus servo on when tracking the action instead of the half shutter (too easy to fire a shoot) - any idea how I stop the shutter from acting the focus (or do i not need to)
Forgot this part.Assuming it works the same way as the 1D3 .... there may be a setting deep in the Cfns that offers a series of seemingly obscure settings for various functions. When I tried out my 1D3 it had been set to use the AF button and disable the shutter button in nearly all presets - which confused the hell out of me until I realised what was going on and went searching .... hoever the odd thing about it was that the seelction set did not seem to have relevance until I realised that in effect is set a circular chain of events that disabled the shutter button as an instigator of AF. The requirement was for AI Servo to be operational longer in order to enhance its predictive capability for focusing without setting an exposure value to long before the shot is taken.
Now, when I had the 7D for a couple of weeks I don't remember seeing exactly the same CFn but then I wasn't really looking for it so it may or may not be controlled the same way. Something to look for though.
HTH.
Given up trying the button to turn of the shutter button from focusing!
Looking at the focus point in DPP it seems on target....just soft. Will try some stuff using expansion points on the auto focus. I wonder if only letting the camera use the dead centre point is not enough (it often is filled by one players top so maybe not getting enough contrast?)
Looking at the focus point in DPP it seems on target....just soft. Will try some stuff using expansion points on the auto focus. I wonder if only letting the camera use the dead centre point is not enough (it often is filled by one players top so maybe not getting enough contrast?)
At f2.0 the DOF is going to be very shallow and any innacuracies show up very easily.
What you need to do is print of a fpocus test chart and do some proper controlled tests and use the manual focus adjustment to tune the lens so it focuses correctly. Only when its setup to focus correctly in controlled conditions can you then start worrying about if misfocusing in real world stuff (note you cna do this in the real world too but its tricky).
The real mehtod I use is the one recomended by canon, setup a test resolution chart at 50 * the mm of the lens distance, shoot one shot focused with live view manualy at 10* zoom (flat on) then shoot a range of test shots using MA and examine to pick the closest then shoot some more around that value to judge the best.
By Default the AF-On button will focus.
To STOP the shutter button from focusing go to C.FnIV: Operation/Others
Select 1
Select the shutter button then select the [@] middle symbol to just meeter.
What you need to do is print of a fpocus test chart and do some proper controlled tests and use the manual focus adjustment to tune the lens so it focuses correctly. Only when its setup to focus correctly in controlled conditions can you then start worrying about if misfocusing in real world stuff (note you cna do this in the real world too but its tricky).
The real mehtod I use is the one recomended by canon, setup a test resolution chart at 50 * the mm of the lens distance, shoot one shot focused with live view manualy at 10* zoom (flat on) then shoot a range of test shots using MA and examine to pick the closest then shoot some more around that value to judge the best.
By Default the AF-On button will focus.
To STOP the shutter button from focusing go to C.FnIV: Operation/Others
Select 1
Select the shutter button then select the [@] middle symbol to just meeter.
Tiggsy said:
Given up trying the button to turn of the shutter button from focusing!
Looking at the focus point in DPP it seems on target....just soft. Will try some stuff using expansion points on the auto focus. I wonder if only letting the camera use the dead centre point is not enough (it often is filled by one players top so maybe not getting enough contrast?)
You should certainly try the expansion points but you may also need to set the AI Servo tracking sensitivity towards SLOW if you want to follow a single player without the AF trying to jump to anything that comes between you and the target. (Or FASTer if you want it to pick up quickly on anything that comes between you and the current target.)Looking at the focus point in DPP it seems on target....just soft. Will try some stuff using expansion points on the auto focus. I wonder if only letting the camera use the dead centre point is not enough (it often is filled by one players top so maybe not getting enough contrast?)
Now, it you are using the 85mm almost wide open the DoF will be quite shallow. It is possible, I suppose, that there may be times when using multipoint options could catch the the AF picking a middle point between targets and that might just be a point out of focus everywhere if DoF is small enough. I'm not sure this would be the case for your sample shot My guess is that you were abuot 30ft away - maybe a little more - so DoF would be about 3ft which should be about the distance between the 2 players so one or both ought to have reasonable sharpness.
However I note the Exif info identifies the shot as being -1EV so you are a stop under exposed which suggests either accepting ISO3200 or dropping the shutter speed. Also I have just noticed that the Exif records the subject distance as 7.27 meters and that would give a DoF of .55 m which is not much. Does 7.27 m sound about right for the distance to subject?
that distance sounds right....but even with a narrow DOF there should be something sharp!
oddly I have been doing some shots in the garden this afternoon of static kids and those are not "tac sharp" like i'd expect. May have to do a focus test.
I'll also slow down the servo mode....I tend to pick one target and track it so no need to quickly switch.
oddly I have been doing some shots in the garden this afternoon of static kids and those are not "tac sharp" like i'd expect. May have to do a focus test.
I'll also slow down the servo mode....I tend to pick one target and track it so no need to quickly switch.
In addition to Rob's file request - what is the source of the posted file? Are you shooting in only RAW still? If so how has the jpg been created? I'm thinking that RAW will always need processing and sharpening as part of that whatever you do with it. It may be that for smaller output files the 7D will take more sharpening than you are used to applying.
True, remember also that the embeded jpg in the raw is using the cameras slected JPG processing options!
This may , or may not, produce a nice jpg.
Unless you've set it to neutral with no contrast it certainly wont show oyu the proper histogram or anything like the one in the raw file!
This may , or may not, produce a nice jpg.
Unless you've set it to neutral with no contrast it certainly wont show oyu the proper histogram or anything like the one in the raw file!
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