Single Seater Road Legal
Discussion
I am looking for a project to build this year.
Built a number of 7 copies currently finishing another TJ Locost with Alfa mechanics and a rebuild of a 1340 Midas Turbo.
Started with kit cars on a Typhoon in 1966 still building the things. Its my kind of fun.
The Chris Gibbs book seems to have gone missing?
I want a really quick single seater fully road legal in line Ford Duratec with throttle bodies perhaps?
Had a Moss Monaco but the Herald chassis was inappropriate for any power.
Would converting an existing racer be the answer?
Has anyone actually got one?
Any ideas would be most appreciated
Built a number of 7 copies currently finishing another TJ Locost with Alfa mechanics and a rebuild of a 1340 Midas Turbo.
Started with kit cars on a Typhoon in 1966 still building the things. Its my kind of fun.
The Chris Gibbs book seems to have gone missing?
I want a really quick single seater fully road legal in line Ford Duratec with throttle bodies perhaps?
Had a Moss Monaco but the Herald chassis was inappropriate for any power.
Would converting an existing racer be the answer?
Has anyone actually got one?
Any ideas would be most appreciated
It's certainly been done a few times.
A member called DBS V8 here on PistonHeads has a replica Lotus 22 that's road legal (though it seems to have anomalies with its registration process and I doubt it would get through the current IVA process without some modifications - you might wish to talk to Xanthos, who build similar devices).
There's also a road legal Formula Vee in the classifieds at present.
I once had the opportunity to drive a road legal Mallock Clubmans, though to be honest it was a pretty unpleasant experience... race cars are designed to run at full chat all the time, on smooth race tracks. Give them potholes, speed ramps and traffic to deal with, and they don't always cope terribly well, so you might be better off starting from a clean sheet of paper. Though the old '60's stuff (like the Lotus 22) is a better starting point, because they ran much greater ground clearances and more compliant suspension.
eta: actually, the Formula Vee is quite a cunning plan, I guess: engine, gearbox and front and rear axles have to be Beetle under the class rules, which with a new chassis gives you an age related plate without any difficulty. The ultimate single-donor kit car?
A member called DBS V8 here on PistonHeads has a replica Lotus 22 that's road legal (though it seems to have anomalies with its registration process and I doubt it would get through the current IVA process without some modifications - you might wish to talk to Xanthos, who build similar devices).
There's also a road legal Formula Vee in the classifieds at present.
I once had the opportunity to drive a road legal Mallock Clubmans, though to be honest it was a pretty unpleasant experience... race cars are designed to run at full chat all the time, on smooth race tracks. Give them potholes, speed ramps and traffic to deal with, and they don't always cope terribly well, so you might be better off starting from a clean sheet of paper. Though the old '60's stuff (like the Lotus 22) is a better starting point, because they ran much greater ground clearances and more compliant suspension.
eta: actually, the Formula Vee is quite a cunning plan, I guess: engine, gearbox and front and rear axles have to be Beetle under the class rules, which with a new chassis gives you an age related plate without any difficulty. The ultimate single-donor kit car?
Edited by Sam_68 on Sunday 23 January 20:52
That vee actually doesnt look too bad!
In NSW, Australia we have I would say the worst road rego laws in the worlds. Thousands of pages of design rules and nobody to sign it off at the end anyway. As a way to play with the rules but kind of get around this, I looked at building a single seat reverse trike. Using a saddle arrangement and handlebars it made it even easier for the lawman.
Anyway, I had designed with some friends a fairly quick change rear end (jackshaft fyi) that it could be converted to four wheel for the track. Single rear disc brake and the rear tyres moved up and down as one.
Never got off the ground though sadly. Built the 23 instead.
In NSW, Australia we have I would say the worst road rego laws in the worlds. Thousands of pages of design rules and nobody to sign it off at the end anyway. As a way to play with the rules but kind of get around this, I looked at building a single seat reverse trike. Using a saddle arrangement and handlebars it made it even easier for the lawman.
Anyway, I had designed with some friends a fairly quick change rear end (jackshaft fyi) that it could be converted to four wheel for the track. Single rear disc brake and the rear tyres moved up and down as one.
Never got off the ground though sadly. Built the 23 instead.
Don't know if this helps, www.furorecars.co.uk guess it depends how modern you want to get - can be a single seater or tandem 2 seater
http://www.superlitecars.com/nemesis_images.html
Though I'm not sure if there are road legal options yet.
Though I'm not sure if there are road legal options yet.
Moogle said:
http://www.superlitecars.com/nemesis_images.html
Though I'm not sure if there are road legal options yet.
I like that a lot.Though I'm not sure if there are road legal options yet.
I have been trying to find out what the state of play is with the Chris gibs book. as that looks like it would be an interesting project. If any one has any news im all ears.
Many thanks to all the responders. I admire several of the designs.
However I do not intend to spend big money (8000++) on what should be essentially an cheaper smaller and easier car to build with less bodywork less metal and less trim than a standard Haynes/Chapmam roadster.
My budget for this project is about £5000 all up I am a retired accountant and costs are close to my heart.
I intend to build this actual car this year!
I can buy a complete set of bodywork for a Haynes/Chapman roadster for about £750. I can source several good chassis sets complete for the same type of car for £750.
I have bought a twin cam Focus ( scrap) for £350 complete. Instruments Discs etc engine drive train etc should therefore be available. Target weight is about 400 Kilos or very very light for a car. BUT it is a single seater.
Throttle bodies on the engine + remapping and a much better breathing system should give a useful output. If the car handles (or when the car handles) properly I have a Duratec breathed on by another racing contact producing 225BHP at the flywheel.
With 400 kilos this should be something over 500 BHP per ton which, in a single seater, should be quite enough for an old duffer like me.
Several contacts of mine in the Kit car Industry (mechanical engineers not accountants) have offered twin wishbone coil over shock set ups purpose made assemblies to suit the light weight, spring rates etc for £500 complete all round.
What I am desperate for is a concept. A designer with ideas. A really good looking single seater which meets the DVLA requirements light height etc.
I am not a Designer and can never be. I am really looking for an existing body for which I can the fettle the chassis to fit and off we jolly well go!
Alternatively I could look at a motorcycle set up but I have found that the clutch and transmission in these cases when fitted to a car are unreliable and fragile. I havce yet to see a reliable usable set up with motorcycle bits.
Once again many thanks any more ideas please Steffan Hughes
However I do not intend to spend big money (8000++) on what should be essentially an cheaper smaller and easier car to build with less bodywork less metal and less trim than a standard Haynes/Chapmam roadster.
My budget for this project is about £5000 all up I am a retired accountant and costs are close to my heart.
I intend to build this actual car this year!
I can buy a complete set of bodywork for a Haynes/Chapman roadster for about £750. I can source several good chassis sets complete for the same type of car for £750.
I have bought a twin cam Focus ( scrap) for £350 complete. Instruments Discs etc engine drive train etc should therefore be available. Target weight is about 400 Kilos or very very light for a car. BUT it is a single seater.
Throttle bodies on the engine + remapping and a much better breathing system should give a useful output. If the car handles (or when the car handles) properly I have a Duratec breathed on by another racing contact producing 225BHP at the flywheel.
With 400 kilos this should be something over 500 BHP per ton which, in a single seater, should be quite enough for an old duffer like me.
Several contacts of mine in the Kit car Industry (mechanical engineers not accountants) have offered twin wishbone coil over shock set ups purpose made assemblies to suit the light weight, spring rates etc for £500 complete all round.
What I am desperate for is a concept. A designer with ideas. A really good looking single seater which meets the DVLA requirements light height etc.
I am not a Designer and can never be. I am really looking for an existing body for which I can the fettle the chassis to fit and off we jolly well go!
Alternatively I could look at a motorcycle set up but I have found that the clutch and transmission in these cases when fitted to a car are unreliable and fragile. I havce yet to see a reliable usable set up with motorcycle bits.
Once again many thanks any more ideas please Steffan Hughes
Steffan said:
...My budget for this project is about £5000 all up
...I have bought a twin cam Focus ( scrap) for £350 complete. Instruments Discs etc engine drive train etc should therefore be available.
You budget, and the use of the Focus drivetrain, will enforce some significant constraints on your design: the engine and gearbox is transverse, which will dictate a fairly wide chassis at the rear. It will also mean that (unless you have a big empty space between driver and engine) your driver is seated closer to the rear axle than would be typical with a 'traditional' single-seater....I have bought a twin cam Focus ( scrap) for £350 complete. Instruments Discs etc engine drive train etc should therefore be available.
Even bike engines (which are transverse, of course) have their gearboxes behind the engine, followed by a chain drive to a separate diff, which makes the overall package a lot longer but slimmer than a transverse car engines like the Focus', which has the gearbox bolted to one end of the engine. It's going to be tricky to come up with something that looks 'right' as a single seater.
You could do worse than draw up the basic packaging (wheels/wheelbase/driver/engine) then throw it open for sketches on the forum in the hope that Italo (Furioserie) bites...
Steffan said:
...Target weight is about 400 Kilos or very very light for a car. BUT it is a single seater.
I still wouldn't underestimate the difficulty of meeting that target weight, particualrly on your budget.I speak as someone who owns a car (admittedly a 2 seater - albeit a very minimalist one) that failed to meet that target weight by a fair margin despite a much lighter engine than yours, carbon fibre monocoque chassis and body panels, specially designed, ultra-light wheels, hubs and uprights, etc.
I'm slowly designing a road legal single seater myself, with a target weight of 300 kilos, but the design compromises, bespoke components and budget that I'm having to accept to stand any chance of meeting that target are fearsome.
Lovely car but are they actually street legal? Magnificent but Roadworthy??
I doubt that in the form shown they can be: where for example are the lights?
As far as I know the IVA requirements will not allow unlit vehicles.
No lights = not roadworthy. Quite apart from any other consideration.
Equally the 'plates' do not comply. Does the car actually have IVA approval?
I do appreciate all the comments and those of Sam 68 in particular which are detailed. I entirely accept the helpful advice on weight difficulties. Looks like the motorcycle route may be the best way forward but I am very doubtful of the longevity of the clutch in use on cars.
I am genuinely surprised no one has yet put forward a car that actually looks like it might comply. I am not a technical man but even I can see obvious non compliance in the majority of the cars suggested.
There are classic single seaters that might comply but I really fancy something that is ultra modern lightweight but can be truly roadworthy. I do not want to be a test case for the police to pursue. I want the car I build to definitely comply with the construction and use legislation.
Anyone got any more suggestions please.
I doubt that in the form shown they can be: where for example are the lights?
As far as I know the IVA requirements will not allow unlit vehicles.
No lights = not roadworthy. Quite apart from any other consideration.
Equally the 'plates' do not comply. Does the car actually have IVA approval?
I do appreciate all the comments and those of Sam 68 in particular which are detailed. I entirely accept the helpful advice on weight difficulties. Looks like the motorcycle route may be the best way forward but I am very doubtful of the longevity of the clutch in use on cars.
I am genuinely surprised no one has yet put forward a car that actually looks like it might comply. I am not a technical man but even I can see obvious non compliance in the majority of the cars suggested.
There are classic single seaters that might comply but I really fancy something that is ultra modern lightweight but can be truly roadworthy. I do not want to be a test case for the police to pursue. I want the car I build to definitely comply with the construction and use legislation.
Anyone got any more suggestions please.
Steffan said:
Lovely car (the Furore) but are they actually street legal? Magnificent but Roadworthy??
Yes, they are street legal and there are examples on the road. Read about them for yourself athttp://www.furorecars.co.uk
Edited by singlecoil on Wednesday 26th January 06:13
Steffan said:
Equally the 'plates' do not comply.
What is wrong with the plates?They look to be of the right material and correct font & spacing.
Statutory Instrument 2001 No. 561 says it should be fitted as vertical as practically possible and that you must be able to read it from the 'relevant area' which is too boring to bother describing so best left as 22 metres in front of the car.
Steve
What makes you think that a bike clutch not lasting for 80,000 miles will cause you any problems? They are cheap to replace, quick to do and easy to upgrade too. I could change the entire clutch basket on my old Blackbird Indy in under an hour. Whilst they don't last as long in a 7 as they do in a bike, in a single seater they should last somewhere in the middle. I always found my clutch to be a bit heavy, but that's because I set it up that way. Altering it would have been simple, if I had wanted to do so.
If you really don't like the idea of bike engines, then the 1.8 Audi engine and transaxle may be better for you. It'll be longer than the ford engine and 'box, but much thinner due to being longitudinal. It would also move the driver further forward.
If you really don't like the idea of bike engines, then the 1.8 Audi engine and transaxle may be better for you. It'll be longer than the ford engine and 'box, but much thinner due to being longitudinal. It would also move the driver further forward.
Milky Bar Kid said:
What makes you think that a bike clutch not lasting for 80,000 miles will cause you any problems? They are cheap to replace, quick to do and easy to upgrade too. I could change the entire clutch basket on my old Blackbird Indy in under an hour. Whilst they don't last as long in a 7 as they do in a bike, in a single seater they should last somewhere in the middle. I always found my clutch to be a bit heavy, but that's because I set it up that way. Altering it would have been simple, if I had wanted to do so.
If you really don't like the idea of bike engines, then the 1.8 Audi engine and transaxle may be better for you. It'll be longer than the ford engine and 'box, but much thinner due to being longitudinal. It would also move the driver further forward.
+1 Much cheaper and much easier than any car clutchIf you really don't like the idea of bike engines, then the 1.8 Audi engine and transaxle may be better for you. It'll be longer than the ford engine and 'box, but much thinner due to being longitudinal. It would also move the driver further forward.
What an excellent and helpful crop of comments and suggestion.
Really helpful I am learning all the time from this correspondence which is exactly what I hoped an enquiry would produce.
From all the observations particularly with regard to weight I can see that a Bike engine/lightweight chassis is the way to go.
Very interested in the Furore cars I will contact the factory and take a visit.
My comments below are NOT intended as a criticism of these cars and I am sure these are excellent well designed products.
However on the point of legal road use the plates shown on the photo provided by Colin on the Furore surely do not comply with the construction and use regulations.
In my view these plates are angled at about 45 degrees to the vertical. This simply does not meet the acid test. They will be unreadable by cameras etc and there is no way this complies. Whilst in an effort to be reasonable the examiner may overlook a plate that is not be 100% vertical I just cannot see these being actually legal.
I am sure we all know cars which are on the road with illegal exhausts modifications and alterations which have not been approved by the DVLA. It would seem a fair few enthusiasts simply do not tell the DVLA when they change bodies/engines/etc.
I want DVLA approval on my project when finished. I attract sufficient attention already when driving because of the cars I drive and my driving style (??). I do not want further attention.
Incidentally the plate on the photos does not exist in the DVLA database.
I wonder why this is?
My project must be street legal and I do not think these plates as shown are legally sited as they show in the photo.
On the Bike engined advantages I take the points made on board and I am seriously looking at this as the way forward.
Many thanks again for the comments. Has anyone seen a single seater old style racer kit I think that might be a good starting point.
The BODY is the problem I can source a chassis and suspension to fit any body but I need the panels for a project
Thanks again
Steffan
Really helpful I am learning all the time from this correspondence which is exactly what I hoped an enquiry would produce.
From all the observations particularly with regard to weight I can see that a Bike engine/lightweight chassis is the way to go.
Very interested in the Furore cars I will contact the factory and take a visit.
My comments below are NOT intended as a criticism of these cars and I am sure these are excellent well designed products.
However on the point of legal road use the plates shown on the photo provided by Colin on the Furore surely do not comply with the construction and use regulations.
In my view these plates are angled at about 45 degrees to the vertical. This simply does not meet the acid test. They will be unreadable by cameras etc and there is no way this complies. Whilst in an effort to be reasonable the examiner may overlook a plate that is not be 100% vertical I just cannot see these being actually legal.
I am sure we all know cars which are on the road with illegal exhausts modifications and alterations which have not been approved by the DVLA. It would seem a fair few enthusiasts simply do not tell the DVLA when they change bodies/engines/etc.
I want DVLA approval on my project when finished. I attract sufficient attention already when driving because of the cars I drive and my driving style (??). I do not want further attention.
Incidentally the plate on the photos does not exist in the DVLA database.
I wonder why this is?
My project must be street legal and I do not think these plates as shown are legally sited as they show in the photo.
On the Bike engined advantages I take the points made on board and I am seriously looking at this as the way forward.
Many thanks again for the comments. Has anyone seen a single seater old style racer kit I think that might be a good starting point.
The BODY is the problem I can source a chassis and suspension to fit any body but I need the panels for a project
Thanks again
Steffan
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