Meanwhile, In Syria

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Discussion

Transmitter Man

4,253 posts

223 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
QuantumTokoloshi said:
You would assume so, but do not forget those moderate fundamental islamists are supported by the USA, European nations, Turkey and the Gulf States.

I am absolutely sure, that no intelligence, just like the weapons and training could ever fall into ISIS hands. No chance of that at all.

We have been assured by our politicians and military personnel. Just like the certainty about WMD in Iraq or the free and democratic utopia the Libyans would have after Gaddafi.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 9th October 05:33
moderate fundamental islamists

Is there such a group or are you taking the mick and grouping everyone that opposes Assad into one?

If you honestly think that the mindset of an IS operative is the same as say a former teacher, baker, or even former SAA soldier who may have had a barrel bomb dropped on family members and are taking up arms against the Assad regime then I''m afraid dear Quantum you are surely deluded or receive your salary from Box 88, Moscow.

Phil

QuantumTokoloshi

4,161 posts

216 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
Transmitter Man said:
Budflicker said:
Why do you think it's a good idea to give people who's main conversation point is Allah Akbar a shipload of high tech weapons?

Imagine one of those TOW units on a roof in Paris hitting a school bus or such next year, that won't make such good YouTube viewing.
Excluding the failure of that one opposition fighter that handed some US weapons to an AQ affiliated group a couple of weeks back surely it's better, in the eyes of Obama and others to support selected (Syrian) opposition groups with weapons & intelligence rather than putting US boots on the ground and making the same mistake as happened in previous ME expeditions?

(I'm thinking here re Northern Alliance during the Gulf & now Kurdish in NW Syria & N. Iraq.

Your thoughts on this specific point?

Phil
And how do you distinguish between these groups exactly, who should we supply weapons and training to? That in one or two years time decides that the great Satan is no longer Asaad but us.

Osama Bin Laden was a great Islamic freedom fighter once.

Islamic State of Iraq and Levant (ISIS)
- The Islamic Front
- The Islamic Liberation Front
- Jaysh al-Islam
- Harakat al-Islamiyya
- Tajammu Ansar al-Islam (Gathering of the Supporters of Islam)
- Liwa al-Tawhid (Battalion of Monotheism)
- Liwa al-Haqq (Battalion of Truth)
- Al-Nusra (al-Qaeda offshoot) (Seem these are the new good guys, looking at the media spin)
- Yarmouk Martyrs' Brigade
- Martyrs of Syria Brigade
- Free Syrian Army (Partial to a "Daesh" of Sharia law and an atrocity or two)

Take your choice.


Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 9th October 06:38

QuantumTokoloshi

4,161 posts

216 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
Transmitter Man said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
You would assume so, but do not forget those moderate fundamental islamists are supported by the USA, European nations, Turkey and the Gulf States.

I am absolutely sure, that no intelligence, just like the weapons and training could ever fall into ISIS hands. No chance of that at all.

We have been assured by our politicians and military personnel. Just like the certainty about WMD in Iraq or the free and democratic utopia the Libyans would have after Gaddafi.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 9th October 05:33
moderate fundamental islamists

Is there such a group or are you taking the mick and grouping everyone that opposes Assad into one?

If you honestly think that the mindset of an IS operative is the same as say a former teacher, baker, or even former SAA soldier who may have had a barrel bomb dropped on family members and are taking up arms against the Assad regime then I''m afraid dear Quantum you are surely deluded or receive your salary from Box 88, Moscow.

Phil
You forget the a good number of 911 suspects were qualified engineers. In fact doctors working in the NHS decided that terrorism was a good idea, remember Glasgow. I am not sure your occupation decides whether you will take up arms or not.

Barrel bombs again , oh no, metal containers filled with explosives ! What terrible weapons they are ! So much worse than the much more humane metal containers filled with explosives used by every military in the world, with technical sounding names like Mk82 low drag general purpose fragmentation bomb.

Shall we rename a barrel bomb to MK 1, high drag, general purpose, air dropped, low fragmentation munition?

Your address per chance? PO BOX 1515 Al-Raqqah Caliphate.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 9th October 06:53

amusingduck

9,396 posts

135 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
Esseesse said:
AJS- said:
Essesse
Way off topic but interesting in it's own right.

Even as a fairly complete atheist that's a large number of abortions and I would like to see it fall a lot. The problem is whether you would end up just with a big impoverished population whose underclass were out breeding the productive class even faster than they already are. Maybe even worse as the marginals who made a one off mistake would probably be more careful and the incurably reckless would carry on regardless.

This is where a bit of fire and brimstone right wing Christianity could actually be a good thing. If we could be the one western country to really buck the trend and have a strong, employed and socially functional indigenous working class we would be unstoppable.
Once again, apologies for continuing off topic... But yes, although I couldn't say I'm really religious, in recent years I have come to the conclusion that Christianity is really what once kept the UK on the straight and narrow. Previously I had never given much thought to abortion, but once you have a dig around the details I find it impossible to agree with in anything but the very very rarest of cases. As you say, the side effect of the removal of this get out of jail free card would almost undoubtedly be people who behave in a more responsible way. I notice that they cost £600/go too, so that would also be £100M saved for the NHS/year.
I have never read such dribble on here before.

DMN

2,983 posts

138 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
amusingduck said:
Esseesse said:
AJS- said:
Essesse
Way off topic but interesting in it's own right.

Even as a fairly complete atheist that's a large number of abortions and I would like to see it fall a lot. The problem is whether you would end up just with a big impoverished population whose underclass were out breeding the productive class even faster than they already are. Maybe even worse as the marginals who made a one off mistake would probably be more careful and the incurably reckless would carry on regardless.

This is where a bit of fire and brimstone right wing Christianity could actually be a good thing. If we could be the one western country to really buck the trend and have a strong, employed and socially functional indigenous working class we would be unstoppable.
Once again, apologies for continuing off topic... But yes, although I couldn't say I'm really religious, in recent years I have come to the conclusion that Christianity is really what once kept the UK on the straight and narrow. Previously I had never given much thought to abortion, but once you have a dig around the details I find it impossible to agree with in anything but the very very rarest of cases. As you say, the side effect of the removal of this get out of jail free card would almost undoubtedly be people who behave in a more responsible way. I notice that they cost £600/go too, so that would also be £100M saved for the NHS/year.
I have never read such dribble on here before.
There is some crap posted in this thread, but Esseesse has clearly taken it to the next level.

Transmitter Man

4,253 posts

223 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
Meanwhile back in Syria.

Not my words but I thought very interesting and wonder if anyone amongst the PH cognoscenti think he has a point or two;

'The missile show from Caspian Sea was a very big mistake from Putin side.My opinion,a game changer. Israel will not risk anymore. It can not accept Iran + Assad , even under Russian cover. Iran could alone boost the regime . Why it did not?
A big number of Iranians in Syria could trigger an unbelievable response from Israel.
And so came Putin.'

Putin is a master chess player.

If Putin wanted to lose less people they could have done this months or years ago. Waiting until now shows apprehension or indecisiveness on Putin's part. The Assad Regime has a manpower shortage and has probably already lost most of its elite fighters. Hezbollah now wants to stick close to Lebanon so it is up to Iran and Russia to turn things around on the ground. Those two are unfamiliar with the terrain and I imagine it is a headache coordinating battle instructions using Russian, Arabic and Farsi in real time. Dumb for doing this and dumber for waiting for so long if they had to do it.'

Phil




Transmitter Man

4,253 posts

223 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
QuantumTokoloshi said:
And how do you distinguish between these groups exactly, who should we supply weapons and training to? That in one or two years time decides that the great Satan is no longer Asaad but us.

Osama Bin Laden was a great Islamic freedom fighter once.

Islamic State of Iraq and Levant (ISIS)
- The Islamic Front
- The Islamic Liberation Front
- Jaysh al-Islam
- Harakat al-Islamiyya
- Tajammu Ansar al-Islam (Gathering of the Supporters of Islam)
- Liwa al-Tawhid (Battalion of Monotheism)
- Liwa al-Haqq (Battalion of Truth)
- Al-Nusra (al-Qaeda offshoot) (Seem these are the new good guys, looking at the media spin)
- Yarmouk Martyrs' Brigade
- Martyrs of Syria Brigade
- Free Syrian Army (Partial to a "Daesh" of Sharia law and an atrocity or two)

Take your choice.


Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 9th October 06:38
Painfully simple.

You research the history of the group, there is more than enough historical data to determine whether they were formed from Syrian nationals together with their backgrounds, what weapons they have used in previous conflicts and their source, were they formed from collaboration of other groups or do they operate independently, you speak to the SNC: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_Syrian_National_Council) and not forgetting the NCB: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Coordination_Committee_for_Democratic_Change) who are still based in Damascus but whose heads you'll have to knock together to gain agreement.

...but of course Putin's probably not interested in talking right now.

Phil

devonshiredave

552 posts

201 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
Transmitter Man said:
Painfully simple.

You research the history of the group, there is more than enough historical data to determine whether they were formed from Syrian nationals together with their backgrounds, what weapons they have used in previous conflicts and their source, were they formed from collaboration of other groups or do they operate independently, you speak to the SNC: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_Syrian_National_Council) and not forgetting the NCB: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Coordination_Committee_for_Democratic_Change) who are still based in Damascus but whose heads you'll have to knock together to gain agreement.

...but of course Putin's probably not interested in talking right now.

Phil
Yeah, I can quite picture the Russians trawling wiki to find the least beheady types.

Just like OBL, supporting people with a penchant for terrorism will only end badly. Still, guess you don't mind that Phil..... You do seem pretty damn keen on them.

QuantumTokoloshi

4,161 posts

216 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
Transmitter Man said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
And how do you distinguish between these groups exactly, who should we supply weapons and training to? That in one or two years time decides that the great Satan is no longer Asaad but us.

Osama Bin Laden was a great Islamic freedom fighter once.

Islamic State of Iraq and Levant (ISIS)
- The Islamic Front
- The Islamic Liberation Front
- Jaysh al-Islam
- Harakat al-Islamiyya
- Tajammu Ansar al-Islam (Gathering of the Supporters of Islam)
- Liwa al-Tawhid (Battalion of Monotheism)
- Liwa al-Haqq (Battalion of Truth)
- Al-Nusra (al-Qaeda offshoot) (Seem these are the new good guys, looking at the media spin)
- Yarmouk Martyrs' Brigade
- Martyrs of Syria Brigade
- Free Syrian Army (Partial to a "Daesh" of Sharia law and an atrocity or two)

Take your choice.


Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 9th October 06:38
Painfully simple.

You research the history of the group, there is more than enough historical data to determine whether they were formed from Syrian nationals together with their backgrounds, what weapons they have used in previous conflicts and their source, were they formed from collaboration of other groups or do they operate independently, you speak to the SNC: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_Syrian_National_Council) and not forgetting the NCB: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Coordination_Committee_for_Democratic_Change) who are still based in Damascus but whose heads you'll have to knock together to gain agreement.

...but of course Putin's probably not interested in talking right now.

Phil
The FSA is almost completely gone, gone to ISIS. So yes in a rapidly changing environment, with new groups springing up everyday, merging etc. That sounds like an exercise in futility.

You have not answered my question, who exactly should we be supplying with weapons, TOW missiles, even MANPADS, that will not in a short period of time become the next Mujaheddin hero to Al Qaeda villain.

Cobnapint

8,596 posts

150 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
Langweilig said:
Putin has vowed to wipe out IS. 150,000 Russian troops are to take Raqqa by force.

And I don't think Putin is joking.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/609757/Putin-I...
150,000 - that's the way to do it, en-masse, outnumber the enemy and sweep through.

Not like our lot, we couldn't provide two thirds of that number.

Never mind though, if the Russkis turn towards the Baltics, we've got 100 waiting to ward them off. rolleyes

Transmitter Man

4,253 posts

223 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
I have answered you question.

Group discussion with the above organisations will determine if your TOW operative is a baker or a 'butcher'.

BTW, were you aware of this from a couple of months back in Sevastolpol as broadcast on RT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-PwzNArd2M

From 2:0: https://youtu.be/vLG2pxhJscQ

Phil

Edited by Transmitter Man on Friday 9th October 09:08

Transmitter Man

4,253 posts

223 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
I have answered you question.

Group discussion with the above organisations will determine if your TOW operative is a baker or a 'butcher'.

BTW, were you aware of this from a couple of months back in Sevastolpol as broadcast on RT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-PwzNArd2M

From 2:0: https://youtu.be/vLG2pxhJscQ

Phil

Edited by Transmitter Man on Friday 9th October 09:37

Esseesse

8,969 posts

207 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
hidetheelephants said:
I would like to differ; a look at what it was like in the UK before abortion was made legal and more-or-less available on demand would show babies, babies and more unwanted babies, plus a garnish of women dying or being rendered infertile and/or incontinent in backstreet abortion clinics. It wasn't better in the old days, it was stty, misogynistic and generally horrible, but despite this people still persisted in having a lot of sex and getting pregnant. The absence of on-demand abortion will not do much of anything apart from make a lot of unwilling people parents.
Thanks for bothering to give a reply without just hurling insults as above. rolleyes You may well be right...

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
Transmitter Man said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
And how do you distinguish between these groups exactly, who should we supply weapons and training to? That in one or two years time decides that the great Satan is no longer Asaad but us.

Osama Bin Laden was a great Islamic freedom fighter once.

Islamic State of Iraq and Levant (ISIS)
- The Islamic Front
- The Islamic Liberation Front
- Jaysh al-Islam
- Harakat al-Islamiyya
- Tajammu Ansar al-Islam (Gathering of the Supporters of Islam)
- Liwa al-Tawhid (Battalion of Monotheism)
- Liwa al-Haqq (Battalion of Truth)
- Al-Nusra (al-Qaeda offshoot) (Seem these are the new good guys, looking at the media spin)
- Yarmouk Martyrs' Brigade
- Martyrs of Syria Brigade
- Free Syrian Army (Partial to a "Daesh" of Sharia law and an atrocity or two)

Take your choice.


Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 9th October 06:38
Painfully simple.

You research the history of the group, there is more than enough historical data to determine whether they were formed from Syrian nationals together with their backgrounds, what weapons they have used in previous conflicts and their source, were they formed from collaboration of other groups or do they operate independently, you speak to the SNC: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_Syrian_National_Council) and not forgetting the NCB: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Coordination_Committee_for_Democratic_Change) who are still based in Damascus but whose heads you'll have to knock together to gain agreement.

...but of course Putin's probably not interested in talking right now.

Phil
Perhaps we can wire you up a direct line to the Defense Intelligence Agency. Maybe they don't know about Wikipedia.




The Don of Croy

5,976 posts

158 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
Esseesse said:
hidetheelephants said:
I would like to differ; a look at what it was like in the UK before abortion was made legal and more-or-less available on demand would show babies, babies and more unwanted babies, plus a garnish of women dying or being rendered infertile and/or incontinent in backstreet abortion clinics. It wasn't better in the old days, it was stty, misogynistic and generally horrible, but despite this people still persisted in having a lot of sex and getting pregnant. The absence of on-demand abortion will not do much of anything apart from make a lot of unwilling people parents.
Thanks for bothering to give a reply without just hurling insults as above. rolleyes You may well be right...
We had a thread on this topic over here;

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=128...

- feel free to re-ignite the debate...

XM5ER

5,087 posts

247 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
Transmitter Man said:
Meanwhile back in Syria.


If Putin wanted to lose less people they could have done this months or years ago. Waiting until now shows apprehension or indecisiveness on Putin's part. The Assad Regime has a manpower shortage and has probably already lost most of its elite fighters. Hezbollah now wants to stick close to Lebanon so it is up to Iran and Russia to turn things around on the ground. Those two are unfamiliar with the terrain and I imagine it is a headache coordinating battle instructions using Russian, Arabic and Farsi in real time. Dumb for doing this and dumber for waiting for so long if they had to do it.'
I would say that, in terms of timing Putin has played a blinder. Had he gone in prior to the exodus from Syria to Germany and the EU, he would have been blamed for it, now he can claim that he is assisting Assad for humanitarian purposes, of course anyone with half a brain knows that it is not but the first casualty of any war is "the truth".

bobbylondonuk

2,197 posts

189 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
Cobnapint said:
Langweilig said:
Putin has vowed to wipe out IS. 150,000 Russian troops are to take Raqqa by force.

And I don't think Putin is joking.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/609757/Putin-I...
150,000 - that's the way to do it, en-masse, outnumber the enemy and sweep through.

Not like our lot, we couldn't provide two thirds of that number.

Never mind though, if the Russkis turn towards the Baltics, we've got 100 waiting to ward them off. rolleyes
If you go to war, go to win. The ruskis have balls. We in the west are pussies. Fact. Our history in military conflict and political games over the last 15-20 years is proof enough.

all we do is stir up st and talk. If we do need to muck in, we send our boys and girls in low numbers to fight 3 times harder when we should be landing huge volumes and making strategic and forceful moves to finish the objective come hell or high water.


We lose our armed forces without even giving them a show of undisputed victory in war. Shame on us.

This is why Putin is superman out there in the real world. he doesnt care about anything but the victory at the end. All his moves so far for many years has been to build, strengthen and now demonstrate Russian power. And that too on the cheap by using old tech and past shelf life ammo! Brilliant!


EskimoArapaho

5,135 posts

134 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
I have to agree about the US-UK coalition having no potency against ISIS. Russians have fewer qualms.

But the big test of Putin's hold over the Russia will come when poor Russian grunts start getting beheaded by ISIS, with the usual gruesome videos being released to send a message.

p1stonhead

25,489 posts

166 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
Never thought I would be fully behind things Putin is saying! NATO seem to be a bunch of muppets once again trying to remove the leader of a foreign government (thats worked out really well before) for their own reasons. Assad is bad no doubt, but the alternative will be ANOTHER country decending (further...) into total chaos if there was no actual leadership there.

Russia will hopefully finally put an end to IS. Im sure there are many many alterior motives but still.



Edited by p1stonhead on Friday 9th October 11:49

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Friday 9th October 2015
quotequote all
bobbylondonuk said:
Cobnapint said:
Langweilig said:
Putin has vowed to wipe out IS. 150,000 Russian troops are to take Raqqa by force.

And I don't think Putin is joking.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/609757/Putin-I...
150,000 - that's the way to do it, en-masse, outnumber the enemy and sweep through.

Not like our lot, we couldn't provide two thirds of that number.

Never mind though, if the Russkis turn towards the Baltics, we've got 100 waiting to ward them off. rolleyes
If you go to war, go to win. The ruskis have balls. We in the west are pussies. Fact. Our history in military conflict and political games over the last 15-20 years is proof enough.

all we do is stir up st and talk. If we do need to muck in, we send our boys and girls in low numbers to fight 3 times harder when we should be landing huge volumes and making strategic and forceful moves to finish the objective come hell or high water.


We lose our armed forces without even giving them a show of undisputed victory in war. Shame on us.

This is why Putin is superman out there in the real world. he doesnt care about anything but the victory at the end. All his moves so far for many years has been to build, strengthen and now demonstrate Russian power. And that too on the cheap by using old tech and past shelf life ammo! Brilliant!
We did all this in Iraq. Look what happened after that. It is odd that the Putin fanboys think that overwhelming force against Raqqa will have a different effect from the overwhelming force used by the US in Iraq a decade ago. Yes, if Russia uses overwhelming force, it will clear ISIS out of Raqqa, but that won't stop bombings, raids on easier targets and continued killings by ISIS.