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anniesdad
Original Poster
6,460 posts
68 months
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Whilst scanning some old roadtests for PH owners of Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghini's, that I had unearthed in my mum's loft. I came across a good heel and toe article by John Barker from a 1996 edition of Performance Car (the old EVO). If anyone wants a copy e-mail me via my profile and I'd be happy to send it.
Best regards
Steve
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Muncher
6,545 posts
79 months
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I wouldn't mind it Steve!
Can you scan it?
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dcw@pr
3,064 posts
73 months
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thanks for the article. In my own brand of self taught (and badly executed!) heel & toeing, I have never bothered to double de-clutch, i've just blipped whilst the clutch was down. What difference will this make?
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anniesdad
Original Poster
6,460 posts
68 months
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Muncher said:I wouldn't mind it Steve!
Can you scan it? |
Hi Paul, Send me a PM and I'll send it by return. regards Stev
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anniesdad
Original Poster
6,460 posts
68 months
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dcw@pr said:| thanks for the article. In my own brand of self taught (and badly executed!) heel & toeing, I have never bothered to double de-clutch, i've just blipped whilst the clutch was down. What difference will this make? |
It just helps to smooth things out and makes them less jerky, but then..hey what do I know. 
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bruciebabie
895 posts
66 months
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anniesdad said:
dcw@pr said:| thanks for the article. In my own brand of self taught (and badly executed!) heel & toeing, I have never bothered to double de-clutch, i've just blipped whilst the clutch was down. What difference will this make? |
It just helps to smooth things out and makes them less jerky, but then..hey what do I know. |
If you bring the clutch up in neutral when you blip on a change down (double declutching) you are more closely matching the speed of the cogs in the gearbox so the synchromesh has less work to do. In fact, with a little practice, you can do totally clutchless downchanges by blipping in neutral. Clutchless upchanges are also easy, it is just a matter of timing so the engine revs drop sufficiently to engage the next gear. When heeling and toeing I usually just blip on the downchange without double declutching because modern synchromesh is so effective. However in some cars in some situations it is still better to double declutch to help the synchromesh.
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speedy_thrills
4,721 posts
73 months
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bruciebabie said: If you bring the clutch up in neutral when you blip on a change down (double declutching) you are more closely matching the speed of the cogs in the gearbox so the synchromesh has less work to do. In fact, with a little practice, you can do totally clutchless downchanges by blipping in neutral. Clutchless upchanges are also easy, it is just a matter of timing so the engine revs drop sufficiently to engage the next gear.
When heeling and toeing I usually just blip on the downchange without double declutching because modern synchromesh is so effective. However in some cars in some situations it is still better to double declutch to help the synchromesh. |
Double rev gauge when you started practicing? Haven tried myself on an old Starlet in a field I can say that when slack driving it is easy but when trying to do multiple things it gets difficult and gears grind.
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anniesdad
Original Poster
6,460 posts
68 months
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Speedy, You have mail.......I think?  Steve
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NiceCupOfTea
14,714 posts
81 months
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Interesting, I was going to start a thread on this today! I did my first 2 correctly matched h&t downchanges today  I didn't double-declutch, that's next on the list, just blipped the throttle. The T16S has rather well setup pedals, brake & gas very close, both at same level. In fact, I keep accidentally grabbing both at the same time which started me thinking about it. Need thinner soled shoes I think. Blipping will match revs, double-declutching will save the synchro as well. I usually d-declutch, esp going down into 2nd as they're not the strongest 'boxes 
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flemke
16,345 posts
67 months
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On a downchange (particularly with a ddc which takes a bit longer and thus there is more time for the engine speed to fall), it can help if you don't fully lift off the throttle before you put in the clutch.
If you lift off completely, your brain and right foot have more work to do in order to locate the exact throttle position that is right for the new engine speed. While declutching, if instead you ease back the throttle slightly (just enough so that when you dip the clutch, which unloads the engine, the engine speed doesn't speed up for that reason alone), the throttle will remain fairly close to the correct point for the lower gear.
As you let the clutch back out you then press the throtttle a bit more (another 600 rpms, or whatever it may be) and you're more likely to manage a smooth change.
As I say, with ddc the engine revs fall further, which makes the above style of changing more helpful.
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anniesdad
Original Poster
6,460 posts
68 months
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flemke said:On a downchange (particularly with a ddc which takes a bit longer and thus there is more time for the engine speed to fall), it can help if you don't fully lift off the throttle before you put in the clutch.
If you lift off completely, your brain and right foot have more work to do in order to locate the exact throttle position that is right for the new engine speed. While declutching, if instead you ease back the throttle slightly (just enough so that when you dip the clutch, which unloads the engine, the engine speed doesn't speed up for that reason alone), the throttle will remain fairly close to the correct point for the lower gear.
As you let the clutch back out you then press the throtttle a bit more (another 600 rpms, or whatever it may be) and you're more likely to manage a smooth change.
As I say, with ddc the engine revs fall further, which makes the above style of changing more helpful. |
Sounds a lot of work to get it right and obviously a lot of practice needed but in an average modern sportscar with a relatively light clutch pedal, once familiar with it, how quick would you say that a smooth heel and toe downchange can be carried out? Are we talking rifle bolt, as per upchanges? How quick say are you in the F1 (notchier and stiffer gearchange?)? and are you quicker in the CGT? S >> Edited by anniesdad on Friday 27th May 14:09
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Alfa Male
298 posts
82 months
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Thanks again for the article Steve. Seems I've been doing it for ages allready. Exept for the double declutch wich I've not found necessary/ never thought about. I'll start experimenting on the way home this evening.
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angrys3owner
12,275 posts
59 months
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Thanks for the article steve, it's basically what I thought, just need to persuade me feet to carry out the actions now... 
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m12_nathan
5,138 posts
89 months
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Didn't think it was possible in VAG cars (assume you still have the S3) as (IIRC) the fly by wire throttle shuts when the brakes are in use or something similar.
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DanH
11,975 posts
90 months
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m12_nathan said:| Didn't think it was possible in VAG cars (assume you still have the S3) as (IIRC) the fly by wire throttle shuts when the brakes are in use or something similar. |
Thats if you can get that far with what are normally extremely heal and toe unfriendly offsets, and massively overassisted brakes I can do it fine in 'proper' cars, but I tried it in my old Golf VR6 once and nearly put the passenger through the windscreen!
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rsvmilly
8,051 posts
71 months
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DanH said:Thats if you can get that far with what are normally extremely heal and toe unfriendly offsets, and massively overassisted brakes
I can do it fine in 'proper' cars, but I tried it in my old Golf VR6 once and nearly put the passenger through the windscreen!
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Likewise my Clio was a bugger to do it in due to the brake servo and pedal spacing. I was practicing in my Evo a little while back (with no DDC). Most attempts were pretty crappy but just this once I got it perfect. Great feeling.
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jimothy
4,639 posts
67 months
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Thanks for the article. Time for lots of practice this weekend!
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anniesdad
Original Poster
6,460 posts
68 months
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jimothy said:
Thanks for the article. Time for lots of practice this weekend! |
You're most welcome.
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Don
23,382 posts
114 months
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dcw@pr said:| thanks for the article. In my own brand of self taught (and badly executed!) heel & toeing, I have never bothered to double de-clutch, i've just blipped whilst the clutch was down. What difference will this make? |
None. Double de-clutch should not be necessary as part of Heel and Toe in a modern car.
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Don
23,382 posts
114 months
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bruciebabie said:
If you bring the clutch up in neutral when you blip on a change down (double declutching) you are more closely matching the speed of the cogs in the gearbox so the synchromesh has less work to do. In fact, with a little practice, you can do totally clutchless downchanges by blipping in neutral. Clutchless upchanges are also easy, it is just a matter of timing so the engine revs drop sufficiently to engage the next gear.
When heeling and toeing I usually just blip on the downchange without double declutching because modern synchromesh is so effective. However in some cars in some situations it is still better to double declutch to help the synchromesh. |
BrucieBabe in on-topic, accurate and relevant post with no mention of BMWs shocker!  Yep. I H&T exactly like that - the car seems to like it. Anyone who want to see how to heel and toe properly should buy the Carlimits video "Bending The Rules" with Andy (I'm so calm I'm practically dead) Walsh. Its excellent and you can watch his feet do their little dance on the pedals approaching the corner over and over again until you know how to do it - prior to loads of practice...
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