You MUST have a 'box' installed before insuring you - wtf?
Discussion
I rang up my previous insurer (Bell) yesterday after receiving a decent quote online.
With my payment card in my hand ready to hand over hundreds of my hard earned you'd think any company would jump at the chance to take my cash - no convictions, no claims, decent amount of years NCB, sensible car, bla bla bla.
I was on the phone for about 5-10 minutes with "hi I'm James <surname> but you can call me Jamie", double checking I've put everything correct online and has all the perks I need. We get to the final bit before they ask what my card details are to make the payment until...
BELL: "OK sir, we have a policy whereby we send a qualified engineer around to fit a new device we have that keeps track of your progress. We reward you after the year if you have not had any incidents or claims".
ME: "Er...you what?" - now frantically clicking the back button on my browser window making sure I haven't missed this part. Nope, nothing mentioned about this - 'maybe it is a sales tactic; just say no' I think to myself.
ME: "No thanks, I just want car insurance like everyone else. Nothing fitted to my car thank you". I was expecting to skip this part and then finally pay for my damn car insurance - again, Jamie replies...
BELL: "It's our policy that has been running since June that we fit your car with this device. It's had no problems with any of our existing customers and I cannot continue unless you agree to this"
ME: "You won't sell me car insurance unless I have someone come around my house, cut cables in my car and fit a device that's going to end up spying on me? You're kidding right?"
BELL: "No sir. All our technicians are qualified and you won't have any issues"
ME: "But that's not the point. I don't want a little black box fitted to my car transmitting data to you guys. You honestly won't just sell the car insurance without this?"
BELL: "No sir its been our policy since June. It does not record any personal data and you will end up benefitting if you make no claims"
By this point I am really angry because literally NOTHING was stated anywhere I could find on their site I had to have the 'Big Brother' box fitted to my car. I promptly told the sales chap this is terrible and should offer it on the side and not a mandatory requirement and hung up.
I honestly couldn't believe it. I phoned again and asked a different person about this mystery tracking box thing and they confirmed you HAVE TO have it, otherwise you can basically get lost. I can see why some MAY want it, but for me I don't - I don't like the idea of this thing in my car, taking power, sending data I can't see back to some Insurance overlord HQ so they can eventually say "oops - we see you went over 70MPH quite often throughout the year, so your a higher risk and we want to charge you for it" or "You mostly drive at night and so thats a higher risk" - kerrrr ching! thank you sir.
As for 'no personal data being transmitted' that may well be correct. However every damn box thing will have a unique ID that relates to you - hence they know exactly what you do, when you do it, where you park, how you drive and everything else!!!
I'll never ever feel comfortable in my own car with this thing keeping check on me.
I pray to the big man upstairs that this is some terrible fad they are going through and other insurers will dismiss it. Unfortunately knowing insurance companies they'll all probably jump at the chance and if I ever have to have this 'big brother' box fitted to my car because the law states it I will quit driving altogether.
I went with their sister company Admiral instead. No stupid spy box; just me, my car and a bit of paper saying i am insured.
Has anyone else heard of such a thing? If you're with Bell I would phone them and ask what this is all about before you accept a new policy...
EDIT: Policy can be read here
With my payment card in my hand ready to hand over hundreds of my hard earned you'd think any company would jump at the chance to take my cash - no convictions, no claims, decent amount of years NCB, sensible car, bla bla bla.
I was on the phone for about 5-10 minutes with "hi I'm James <surname> but you can call me Jamie", double checking I've put everything correct online and has all the perks I need. We get to the final bit before they ask what my card details are to make the payment until...
BELL: "OK sir, we have a policy whereby we send a qualified engineer around to fit a new device we have that keeps track of your progress. We reward you after the year if you have not had any incidents or claims".
ME: "Er...you what?" - now frantically clicking the back button on my browser window making sure I haven't missed this part. Nope, nothing mentioned about this - 'maybe it is a sales tactic; just say no' I think to myself.
ME: "No thanks, I just want car insurance like everyone else. Nothing fitted to my car thank you". I was expecting to skip this part and then finally pay for my damn car insurance - again, Jamie replies...
BELL: "It's our policy that has been running since June that we fit your car with this device. It's had no problems with any of our existing customers and I cannot continue unless you agree to this"
ME: "You won't sell me car insurance unless I have someone come around my house, cut cables in my car and fit a device that's going to end up spying on me? You're kidding right?"
BELL: "No sir. All our technicians are qualified and you won't have any issues"
ME: "But that's not the point. I don't want a little black box fitted to my car transmitting data to you guys. You honestly won't just sell the car insurance without this?"
BELL: "No sir its been our policy since June. It does not record any personal data and you will end up benefitting if you make no claims"
By this point I am really angry because literally NOTHING was stated anywhere I could find on their site I had to have the 'Big Brother' box fitted to my car. I promptly told the sales chap this is terrible and should offer it on the side and not a mandatory requirement and hung up.
I honestly couldn't believe it. I phoned again and asked a different person about this mystery tracking box thing and they confirmed you HAVE TO have it, otherwise you can basically get lost. I can see why some MAY want it, but for me I don't - I don't like the idea of this thing in my car, taking power, sending data I can't see back to some Insurance overlord HQ so they can eventually say "oops - we see you went over 70MPH quite often throughout the year, so your a higher risk and we want to charge you for it" or "You mostly drive at night and so thats a higher risk" - kerrrr ching! thank you sir.
As for 'no personal data being transmitted' that may well be correct. However every damn box thing will have a unique ID that relates to you - hence they know exactly what you do, when you do it, where you park, how you drive and everything else!!!
I'll never ever feel comfortable in my own car with this thing keeping check on me.
I pray to the big man upstairs that this is some terrible fad they are going through and other insurers will dismiss it. Unfortunately knowing insurance companies they'll all probably jump at the chance and if I ever have to have this 'big brother' box fitted to my car because the law states it I will quit driving altogether.
I went with their sister company Admiral instead. No stupid spy box; just me, my car and a bit of paper saying i am insured.
Has anyone else heard of such a thing? If you're with Bell I would phone them and ask what this is all about before you accept a new policy...
EDIT: Policy can be read here
Edited by Anubis on Tuesday 16th October 12:42
Durzel said:
I presume Bell offered you a price that was the lowest out of the quotes you'd received?
Nope. Admiral were cheaper again by quite a bit.Just think its really sneaky making it out to be of some benefit to you when infact its spying on you so they can rake in yet more cash or worm their way out of claims because you parked it slighlty further away than your home one day or whatever.
That miniscule very light grey text is worse than Ryanair's advertising. No where does it say 'you have to have it' - as stated above it says 'we offer', which means you can take it or leave it.
It stinks; plain and simple.
Edited by Anubis on Tuesday 16th October 10:12
Durzel, I respect your comments but have to disagree. Where do we draw the line?
I accept you don't have to buy the policy but it was false advertising (other than that incredibly small grey font at the bottom). It misleads people and most (including Doris) will just say 'Yes' to everything to the phone monkey since they lure you in, talk very fast running through a million things at once and before you know it you have this thing in your car keeping an eye on you.
In a perfect world yes everything is fair and true and by having a box installed means you should be treated as an individual thus cheaper insurance. However, the real world isn't driven by 'doing what is right' - it boils down to cash and insurance companies will just use it as an excuse to raise prices.
I can see it right now; "ah, your stats show you drive on motorways Monday to Friday when it is busy, which means you're more likely to have a crash". That's not personal - that's just using stats to group you into those who drive on motorways frequently, therefor crashes on motorways cost more which means you end up paying more. You could be a perfectly safe driver yet you'll end up paying more due to being spied on.
You honestly think this little box is to benefit the masses by lowering insurance premiums? You'd be out of business pretty quick. It's to gather data and up rates based on your previous driving habits.
What happens if you change jobs or move house? Your "accident prone" route your paying for last year has changed completely yet you're paying for it.
It's a horrid, under hand messy way of doing something that doesn't need to be - just pay if I have an incident. That's the agreement and risk - plain and simple.
I accept you don't have to buy the policy but it was false advertising (other than that incredibly small grey font at the bottom). It misleads people and most (including Doris) will just say 'Yes' to everything to the phone monkey since they lure you in, talk very fast running through a million things at once and before you know it you have this thing in your car keeping an eye on you.
In a perfect world yes everything is fair and true and by having a box installed means you should be treated as an individual thus cheaper insurance. However, the real world isn't driven by 'doing what is right' - it boils down to cash and insurance companies will just use it as an excuse to raise prices.
I can see it right now; "ah, your stats show you drive on motorways Monday to Friday when it is busy, which means you're more likely to have a crash". That's not personal - that's just using stats to group you into those who drive on motorways frequently, therefor crashes on motorways cost more which means you end up paying more. You could be a perfectly safe driver yet you'll end up paying more due to being spied on.
You honestly think this little box is to benefit the masses by lowering insurance premiums? You'd be out of business pretty quick. It's to gather data and up rates based on your previous driving habits.
What happens if you change jobs or move house? Your "accident prone" route your paying for last year has changed completely yet you're paying for it.
It's a horrid, under hand messy way of doing something that doesn't need to be - just pay if I have an incident. That's the agreement and risk - plain and simple.
ZOLLAR said:
Bell still offer policies without the box but on a different quote,
No they don't. I phoned twice and asked. They will not insure you at all unless you have one of these things installed.Phone them right now and ask - you'll get same response as I did. Fit it to the car or go away, plain and simple.
ZOLLAR said:
I'll just walk over but I know what they'll say..
Please do - if you're working with them please ask what the deal is with this thing and reply back with full correct details. I asked two different people and both said you have to have it, otherwise you're not covered and will not get insurance from them. I asked if it was possible to get it without and they both clearly stated 'no'.over_the_hill said:
...
See where this is going ?
Unfortunately I can hence the post. I cannot believe people are being tricked into this.See where this is going ?
It's completely different if they offer it with clear and easy to read print. If it's not such a big deal to customers, why make the print so small and hidden in their terms? If its such a great thing to have why not splash it all over your website stating it lowers your premium?
We're not stupid and we all know why - it's a device that generates money for them. I'm waiting for Zollars feedback; I assume he works with them...
triumphkryten said:
Unfortunately, that will not get around the accelerometers that are built into the box - they may not know where but they'll know you've been driving somewhere like a t
t....
This is one of my points. t....We literally have no idea what this thing is doing, recording or sending. Driving data could mean anything - where you are, how you drive, when you drive - screw that. One minute they are monitoring one thing to base their premiums on, when their fianncial numbers start falling they change it again so it works in their favour.
That's not how you treat customers with a written contract. Both parties agree to the terms and work within the conditions until the contract is over. This thing is bending the rules as the contract goes on in terms of what could be monitored.
You don't have to be doing anything illegal but one day it may pop up saying you're a dangerous driver (high revs? higher than normal g-forces?). Then as a previous poster commented, what happens when someone else takes ownership or you switch insurance companies? How can they garuantee it stops doing whatever it does? Who pays for it to be safely removed? What if you experience electrical issues afterwards?
It's just a really bad thing to have in the car in my eyes. If you wanna snoop on people, sit your bum on the passenger seat and be done with it. At least a human and determine how safe something actually is.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
It seems several people (the OP included) have misunderstood the word "product". The "product" is the whole package: the insurance, the box, all the Ts and Cs, plus any other perks there may be. Bell are offering "the product" in its entirety; if you don't like part of the product, then you are free to choose not to buy the entire product. But they are not offering to let you pick and choose which features of the product you want.
The same principle that Ryanair offers you 'products' but forgets to mention various terms and charges. I believe they have been called upon several times for underhand tactics - the same surely applies here no?At least Ryanair states throughout the process at the very end what additional charges are (i.e. card charges, additional weight, etc) even though it is sneaky, yet an insurance company can sell you a device that monitors your driving by putting very very small light grey text on a website and salesman talks fast and just says "do you agree?" afterwards.
Many many people will get caught out by this, have it installed and potentially invalidating their insurance, have god knows what data transmitted about them and rack up data for an expensive renewal based on being different to 'others driving habits'.
Podie said:
According to...
http://www.scirocconet.co.uk/forum/bell-insurance-...
If you exceed 80mph they increase your premium, and if you exceed 100mph your insurance is void.
http://www.scirocconet.co.uk/forum/bell-insurance-...
If you exceed 80mph they increase your premium, and if you exceed 100mph your insurance is void.
THIS is how you unknowingly invalidate your insurance my friend. Very very underhand by such a large company. If I were to over take a lorry at a brief 80MPH and back to 70MPH I would be penalised. Technically I broke the law, however in some circumstances that same lorry could be moving into my lane and had no option to brake without causing an accident.
You can accelerate out of a problem as well as into one. This device completely disregards that and thinks any higher than norm speed means your a boy racing
that deserves high premiums. Bell; give us a break...Edited by Anubis on Tuesday 16th October 12:38
y2blade said:
Thoughts?
They may as well replace the human race with completely efficient robots. But doing so would not generate any fault claims or break any 'black box' policies agreed.The vibe on the whole is that this thing is a huge money making con being phased in and sold to unsuspecting customers yet are currently allowed to get away with it.
Blackpuddin said:
We specifically went to iKube black box insurance for our son who has just turned 17 and is on a provisional licence as we thought it was actually a good idea to have his (and whenever we drive it, his parents!) driving monitored. Box installation took half an hour by a perfectly nice young man, no sign of anything different in the car, it's put under the instrument binnacle. There's a £100 'fine' if you go out between 11pm and 5am - again a good idea IMO. Premium (fully comp plus us parents as named drivers) came to £1670, easily the cheapest we got. Taking Admiral as an example of the non-black box quotes we got, they wanted £2500 and assured us that this would go up to around £4800 once he passed his test and was 'flying solo'. They also said that all other non-box firms would be the same or higher, which again was my experience on phoning round. iKube on the other hand say that the premium will go down as long as son sticks to the rules. If you know what you're getting into I can't see a problem with it.
I do not work for iKube. Tbh they're not brilliant on the admin side, they kept chasing us for the return of documents that they hadn't sent, but we got there in the end.
Thats great...but when you're in your late 20s and beyond not requiring parents insurance and trying to flog this thing to unsuspecting customers it becomes very wrong (IMO). The tool itself is not wrong as such; if people want it then cool. However to sneak it in is wrong; there are terms attached and the whole quote process never once stated it includes this black box thing - not once. If you want to find it it's stated in reallllllly small light grey text at the bottom of the home page making out its saving you (a grown adult) money when it clearly isn't. If you even dare slightly speed it punishes you to the point of never feeling at ease with your own vehicle.I do not work for iKube. Tbh they're not brilliant on the admin side, they kept chasing us for the return of documents that they hadn't sent, but we got there in the end.
BertBert said:
I think you need to move on from being so badly wronged. It really isn't sneaked in at all. I suspect you are not the only car owner clever enough to spot what Bell have done.
Yes it is. Hence the whole point of this thread. Try getting an online quote from Bell - please post screenshot of the page that states about this box along your travels (you won't find one). Then phone them up, confirm all details and just before you're about to sign on the dotted line....bam. "Oh yer! We need to fit this spy kit to your car btw". 
"oh right...that minor details was accidently missed throughout this whole process was it? Funny that. Also funny how Bell forget to mention the horrific restrictions and penalties that come with the evil box too"
How many times do I have to repeat it.
TallbutBuxomly said:
...
So ladies and gents there you have it. Very sneaky.
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Thank you. Just thank you - some people on here trying to defend this underhand spying stuff tarted up as if it "benefits the customer" So ladies and gents there you have it. Very sneaky.
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, this post sums up my anger and suspicions perfectly and you can't argue with it. It's in your car so that you slip up (even by 5mph) and you end up paying them more - it's a money making box for insurance that is never stated clearly when quoting or buying under a false pretense that it somehow illiminates bad drivers and rewards those that are not.There will still be some posting here saying "but in really small text...". pfff - not good enough.
Grenoble said:
Really?
So where are the oodles of customers complaining that their policy has been either revoked or increased by using this product?
I can't recall seeing any here, on the UKs largest (and quite vocal) car forum.. let's face it PH'ers are quick to raise an issue...
I'm not saying that I agree with the product, I'm just not convinced that they are enacting the caveats in the way that you think they might be...
The product started in June apparently. Give it a full 10-12 months when its renewal time. Someone had to spot something that felt wrong and it happened to be me. I posted thinking id help out others here since Bell are used by quite a lot of us.So where are the oodles of customers complaining that their policy has been either revoked or increased by using this product?
I can't recall seeing any here, on the UKs largest (and quite vocal) car forum.. let's face it PH'ers are quick to raise an issue...
I'm not saying that I agree with the product, I'm just not convinced that they are enacting the caveats in the way that you think they might be...
Those that say there arent any issues; would you honestly have it on your own car? If not, why?
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