A thorny issue - illegal off-roading - any advice?
Discussion
Can onyone offer any advice on a growing problem I am facing in my neck of the woods?
I live in the rural south of England, a green and pleasant, peaceful land... I live in the sticks surrounded by common and farm land but not too many miles from reasonably urban settlements and conurbations, very much like the rest of the South. There have always been sporadic issues with dirt bikes illicitly using the countryside for off-road fun, but in recent years the incidence of dirt biking has increased exponentially and with it has come a far greater problem with 4x4s.....
I appreciate that this is a contentious issue and I am not looking for a pitchfork sharpener or flaming torch seller to equipe a posse, but for some advice (both legal and practical) as to how one might be able to go about addressing this issue.....
Where it once used to be a problem confined to the odd weekend, we are now at the point where illegal off-roading is occuring literally 7 days a week, 24 hours a day - and no this is not an exageration, we actually have 4x4 vehicles offroading across common land into the small hours of the night! Equally, where it was once confined to the odd particularly challenging 'mud-hole' or byway, it is now literally anywhere a vehicle can be pushed or winched through - bridleways, footpaths, woodland, marshland etc. is all fair game it seems. Whilst there are a very small number of byways (which are not restricted) these have been used to the point where they are so damaged as to be impassable in anything other than a serious 4x4.
Please don't assume I am some sort of do-gooding tree hugger intent on banning all off-road fun - I am absolutely not. I can totally see the fun in the challenge of off-roading, have travelled the same byways in my own 4x4 myself (in the summer) and 'played' at 'pay & play' sites with dedicated off-roaders. However, right now I am looking at an area of the countryside that has been so damaged that it cannot possibly recover via natural means. I am faced with continual illegal off-roading in an epidemic growing month on month - the more damage done, the more challenging the conditions and thus the more it attracts and is used by illegal off roaders.... and so it goes on. As you can imagine, reasoned discussion with individuals engaged in such activities yields no results - unless you were trying to fill a swear box.
Obviously, Police and PCSO are being regularly informed and evidence is being gathered by concerned local residents where possible (Police always want photo evidence - not easy at night!) but for every vehicle S34'd there are five to take their place... plus the off roaders (paricularly dirt bikes) have simply begun to obscure (tape over) or remove number plates... and of course there are plenty of vehicles that are totally non-road-legal anyway (monkey bikes etc.).
So, how does one go about encouraging or educating off-roaders to limit or desist in this activity? Whar are the actual legal rules on using byways and the damage that such use creates? Who does one contact about getting TRO's applied to byways? Has anyone got any practical suggestions as to how one could try to restore the balance of the countryside or encourage these off-roaders to stop?
I live in the rural south of England, a green and pleasant, peaceful land... I live in the sticks surrounded by common and farm land but not too many miles from reasonably urban settlements and conurbations, very much like the rest of the South. There have always been sporadic issues with dirt bikes illicitly using the countryside for off-road fun, but in recent years the incidence of dirt biking has increased exponentially and with it has come a far greater problem with 4x4s.....
I appreciate that this is a contentious issue and I am not looking for a pitchfork sharpener or flaming torch seller to equipe a posse, but for some advice (both legal and practical) as to how one might be able to go about addressing this issue.....
Where it once used to be a problem confined to the odd weekend, we are now at the point where illegal off-roading is occuring literally 7 days a week, 24 hours a day - and no this is not an exageration, we actually have 4x4 vehicles offroading across common land into the small hours of the night! Equally, where it was once confined to the odd particularly challenging 'mud-hole' or byway, it is now literally anywhere a vehicle can be pushed or winched through - bridleways, footpaths, woodland, marshland etc. is all fair game it seems. Whilst there are a very small number of byways (which are not restricted) these have been used to the point where they are so damaged as to be impassable in anything other than a serious 4x4.
Please don't assume I am some sort of do-gooding tree hugger intent on banning all off-road fun - I am absolutely not. I can totally see the fun in the challenge of off-roading, have travelled the same byways in my own 4x4 myself (in the summer) and 'played' at 'pay & play' sites with dedicated off-roaders. However, right now I am looking at an area of the countryside that has been so damaged that it cannot possibly recover via natural means. I am faced with continual illegal off-roading in an epidemic growing month on month - the more damage done, the more challenging the conditions and thus the more it attracts and is used by illegal off roaders.... and so it goes on. As you can imagine, reasoned discussion with individuals engaged in such activities yields no results - unless you were trying to fill a swear box.
Obviously, Police and PCSO are being regularly informed and evidence is being gathered by concerned local residents where possible (Police always want photo evidence - not easy at night!) but for every vehicle S34'd there are five to take their place... plus the off roaders (paricularly dirt bikes) have simply begun to obscure (tape over) or remove number plates... and of course there are plenty of vehicles that are totally non-road-legal anyway (monkey bikes etc.).
So, how does one go about encouraging or educating off-roaders to limit or desist in this activity? Whar are the actual legal rules on using byways and the damage that such use creates? Who does one contact about getting TRO's applied to byways? Has anyone got any practical suggestions as to how one could try to restore the balance of the countryside or encourage these off-roaders to stop?
Wow. Ok, obviously more contentious than I thought...
For the helpful posters pointing the 'people like you' accusatory finger, thanks for that
I haven't said (nor ever would) that I am against legal and sustainable off-roading and indeed commented that I have enjoyed the same myself. Where legal off-roading damages the 'highway' such that it becomes unuseable for other recreational pursuits then I AM against it and would like to know the mechanics of seeking TROs to prohibit the use of such byways until it has recovered enough (or has been restored) for everyone to be able to use it again - be that on foot or by vehicle.
What (if any) are the legal obligations when using a byway (other than normal highway legalities) regarding damage to the 'roadway' or environment? educate me....
The largest problem for my local community though is mass illegal off-roading - 4x4s driving on common land including bridle paths, footpaths etc. and the resulting damage.
For 300bhp/ton - I understand your disbelief - frankly if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I never would have believed that people would actually drive out to the countryside in the small hours of darkness to engage in mud-plugging... but there they were and there is even a poster in this thread describing his own illegal early morning off-roading, as helpful confirmation.
With regards the legality - it is primarily common land and is thus illegal (thank you, I do know where the byways are, which ones are restricted and which aren't and the legalities of driving on common land). There are no gates or fences to negotiate - ditches were dug a few years ago to disuade entry, but where these haven't been broken down by repeated attempts by off-roaders to 'conquer' them, they have simply been by-passed by driving around through the woodland.... or using the legal byway entry before branching off into the common land.
Lets not forget, irrespective of all the other factors - it is against the law! How does one go about endeavouring to ensure the law is upheld?
I fully understand the argument regarding limiting access and the inevitable increase in traffic to the areas still accessable. I don't have a solution to this, but the floor is open... I wouldn't have a problem with people using the area around me in the slightest if it was done legally and courteously - i.e. to the point where everyone could still use the countryside after off-roaders had enjoyed a play. Unfortunately, that isn't possible at present and I would like to know what steps can be taken to redress the balance so that a harmonious solution can be found.
Ultimately the countryside is an eco-system that off-roaders in my area appear to be increasingly treating as a 'recreational resource' rather than a natural habitat to be managed or just, well, left alone to go on being natural. The common sense judgement of whether it is a good idea to use or damage the countryside in pursuit of recreation seems to have evaporated to be replaced with the 'I am gonna have me some fun' or 'its my legal right' argument.... I would like to explore the options available for redressing this.
For the helpful posters pointing the 'people like you' accusatory finger, thanks for that
I haven't said (nor ever would) that I am against legal and sustainable off-roading and indeed commented that I have enjoyed the same myself. Where legal off-roading damages the 'highway' such that it becomes unuseable for other recreational pursuits then I AM against it and would like to know the mechanics of seeking TROs to prohibit the use of such byways until it has recovered enough (or has been restored) for everyone to be able to use it again - be that on foot or by vehicle. What (if any) are the legal obligations when using a byway (other than normal highway legalities) regarding damage to the 'roadway' or environment? educate me....
The largest problem for my local community though is mass illegal off-roading - 4x4s driving on common land including bridle paths, footpaths etc. and the resulting damage.
For 300bhp/ton - I understand your disbelief - frankly if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I never would have believed that people would actually drive out to the countryside in the small hours of darkness to engage in mud-plugging... but there they were and there is even a poster in this thread describing his own illegal early morning off-roading, as helpful confirmation.
With regards the legality - it is primarily common land and is thus illegal (thank you, I do know where the byways are, which ones are restricted and which aren't and the legalities of driving on common land). There are no gates or fences to negotiate - ditches were dug a few years ago to disuade entry, but where these haven't been broken down by repeated attempts by off-roaders to 'conquer' them, they have simply been by-passed by driving around through the woodland.... or using the legal byway entry before branching off into the common land.
Lets not forget, irrespective of all the other factors - it is against the law! How does one go about endeavouring to ensure the law is upheld?
I fully understand the argument regarding limiting access and the inevitable increase in traffic to the areas still accessable. I don't have a solution to this, but the floor is open... I wouldn't have a problem with people using the area around me in the slightest if it was done legally and courteously - i.e. to the point where everyone could still use the countryside after off-roaders had enjoyed a play. Unfortunately, that isn't possible at present and I would like to know what steps can be taken to redress the balance so that a harmonious solution can be found.
Ultimately the countryside is an eco-system that off-roaders in my area appear to be increasingly treating as a 'recreational resource' rather than a natural habitat to be managed or just, well, left alone to go on being natural. The common sense judgement of whether it is a good idea to use or damage the countryside in pursuit of recreation seems to have evaporated to be replaced with the 'I am gonna have me some fun' or 'its my legal right' argument.... I would like to explore the options available for redressing this.
Hmmmm... thanks for the comments (I think), although I do feel slightly set upon! Note: this is not an issue about 'noise', but illegal use and damage. 300bhp/ton you have email. I am asking for some constructive advice on how to go about adressing the problem I outlined - that of illegal off-roading at all hours and significant damage to byways. Who does one approach to seek to have a byway assessed or TRO applied?
300bhp/ton - thanks for your commentary on my post. Most of these byways are not used by farm traffic, so horses and off-roaders are the sole source of deterioration. You would seriously struggle to pass them on foot, certainly not with a pushchair for example or on a bicycle. Hopefully I have addressed the legality issue in my email to you
. Numerous different vehicles - both 2 and 4 wheeled, some repeat offenders. Yes, there is evidence alot of which has been supplied to the Police, but you probably only get one photo for every ten events at most - you would be surprised how aggresive people become if you try and take pictures of them! Besides which, I personally have favoured the discussion route to try to educate the people I come across about the legality of what they are doing and the damage they are causing - engaging in conversation rather than confrontation. It isn't massively successful - I have stopped and spoken to the same lads on non-road legal monkey bikes 3 times! 
) I would still prefer this method though. I know that the local council have also deployed covert CCTV in the past too.
For those accusing me of NIMBY - please, I am trying to address a problem of illegal off-roading - its a legality issue, not a NIMBY issue. I have no problem with the legal use of byways so long as that use doesn't damage them so that other recreational users cannot use them.... Like I said, I have enjoyed and still enjoy offroading myself but would not dream of doing it somewhere that will result in ripping up the countryside - even if it is my 'legal right'.... I dunno, call me 'responsible' or something
300bhp/ton - thanks for your commentary on my post. Most of these byways are not used by farm traffic, so horses and off-roaders are the sole source of deterioration. You would seriously struggle to pass them on foot, certainly not with a pushchair for example or on a bicycle. Hopefully I have addressed the legality issue in my email to you
. Numerous different vehicles - both 2 and 4 wheeled, some repeat offenders. Yes, there is evidence alot of which has been supplied to the Police, but you probably only get one photo for every ten events at most - you would be surprised how aggresive people become if you try and take pictures of them! Besides which, I personally have favoured the discussion route to try to educate the people I come across about the legality of what they are doing and the damage they are causing - engaging in conversation rather than confrontation. It isn't massively successful - I have stopped and spoken to the same lads on non-road legal monkey bikes 3 times! ) I would still prefer this method though. I know that the local council have also deployed covert CCTV in the past too.Dog Star said:
I can appreciate the OPs point....However what has really really ruined it has been the explosion in 4x4 "One life, live it!" popularity; I see loads of chopped LRs, Discos, RRs, Suzukis etc driving up every weekend morning and down again, covered in s
t in the evenings. The ruts and general knackeredness that has been done to places that I have been able to ride on for years without problem is unbelievable.
The trouble is that there are simply too many of them and as is usual in these situations, they're ruining it for everyone else. And the root cause of all this concentration of 4x4s in one place is the actions and campaigning of the RA to close almost all routes to wheeled traffic. And of course this results in what's left getting ruined and so we'll get banned from that as well. Marvelous
Thank you - that is exactly the problem - finally someone else who has experienced something similar.t in the evenings. The ruts and general knackeredness that has been done to places that I have been able to ride on for years without problem is unbelievable.The trouble is that there are simply too many of them and as is usual in these situations, they're ruining it for everyone else. And the root cause of all this concentration of 4x4s in one place is the actions and campaigning of the RA to close almost all routes to wheeled traffic. And of course this results in what's left getting ruined and so we'll get banned from that as well. Marvelous
For those accusing me of NIMBY - please, I am trying to address a problem of illegal off-roading - its a legality issue, not a NIMBY issue. I have no problem with the legal use of byways so long as that use doesn't damage them so that other recreational users cannot use them.... Like I said, I have enjoyed and still enjoy offroading myself but would not dream of doing it somewhere that will result in ripping up the countryside - even if it is my 'legal right'.... I dunno, call me 'responsible' or something
First, thank you to the members who have made some constructive and useful comments and for the comments from those who have experienced similar.
Just so it is perfectly clear, what I am asking about here is not a 'noise' issue - it is primarily one of illegal off roading - riders and drivers off roading wherever they like. The land being driven on (where it isn't byway) is common land - motorised vehicles are expressly prohibited from driving on common land (without permission from the land owner, whom I know and no, he hasn't given any permission). There is also an issue with excessive damage to byways from over-use by 4x4s and motorised vehicles - these byways are NOT being used by any farm machinery, it is ALL private off-road vehicles. I am not in the habit of posting unsubstantiated and exaggerated diatribe on the internet, so if we can just take the initial post as fact and work from there it would be greatly appreciated. I am adding some photos below so those that doubt my initial comments can see the evidence with their own eyes.
With regards the Police, the bib are aware of the 'criminal activity' (which it is) but are also realistic about catching people in the 'act' - there are not enough resources to cover a large rural area and the illegal off-roaders are a moving target!
I am asking if anyone has any thoughts or ideas as to how one can encourage or educate these illegal off-roaders to desist. Likewise, if anyone has any practical suggestions, be that a high-vis wearing parishioner camped out on site or whatever (legal and sensible), I would be interested to hear them. If you are a 4x4 driver, what would persuade you not to use a particular area but to seek out a more appropriate place to off-road? What are the laws on causing damage to a byway? how does one go about having a byway downgraded or a TRO applied?
OpulentBob - I would be very interested to learn what process you are going through to seek to downgrade the byway, as that may be an option to tackle one part of the problem here.
Some pictures:-
Ancient woodland, in an AONB, turned into what looks like a 'pay & play' site - there is a byway, now impassable, that skirts the edge of this.
Clearly there is no way alot of ^ that ground could ever recover by natural means - the damage is far too great and it no longer dries out in the summer.
Specific evidence of illegal off-roading? How about this..... note: those are bridleway signs.....
Some new tracks pushed through the woodland..... none of this is legal use
Now for some damage to byways..... yes, technically it is legal to drive here, but is it really a good idea when it creates damage like this? you can see that it is no longer possible for other users to use the actual byway, having to skirt along the edges which effectively widens it.
Just so it is perfectly clear, what I am asking about here is not a 'noise' issue - it is primarily one of illegal off roading - riders and drivers off roading wherever they like. The land being driven on (where it isn't byway) is common land - motorised vehicles are expressly prohibited from driving on common land (without permission from the land owner, whom I know and no, he hasn't given any permission). There is also an issue with excessive damage to byways from over-use by 4x4s and motorised vehicles - these byways are NOT being used by any farm machinery, it is ALL private off-road vehicles. I am not in the habit of posting unsubstantiated and exaggerated diatribe on the internet, so if we can just take the initial post as fact and work from there it would be greatly appreciated. I am adding some photos below so those that doubt my initial comments can see the evidence with their own eyes.
With regards the Police, the bib are aware of the 'criminal activity' (which it is) but are also realistic about catching people in the 'act' - there are not enough resources to cover a large rural area and the illegal off-roaders are a moving target!
I am asking if anyone has any thoughts or ideas as to how one can encourage or educate these illegal off-roaders to desist. Likewise, if anyone has any practical suggestions, be that a high-vis wearing parishioner camped out on site or whatever (legal and sensible), I would be interested to hear them. If you are a 4x4 driver, what would persuade you not to use a particular area but to seek out a more appropriate place to off-road? What are the laws on causing damage to a byway? how does one go about having a byway downgraded or a TRO applied?
OpulentBob - I would be very interested to learn what process you are going through to seek to downgrade the byway, as that may be an option to tackle one part of the problem here.
Some pictures:-
Ancient woodland, in an AONB, turned into what looks like a 'pay & play' site - there is a byway, now impassable, that skirts the edge of this.
Clearly there is no way alot of ^ that ground could ever recover by natural means - the damage is far too great and it no longer dries out in the summer.
Specific evidence of illegal off-roading? How about this..... note: those are bridleway signs.....
Some new tracks pushed through the woodland..... none of this is legal use
Now for some damage to byways..... yes, technically it is legal to drive here, but is it really a good idea when it creates damage like this? you can see that it is no longer possible for other users to use the actual byway, having to skirt along the edges which effectively widens it.
Gooood grieeeeeef! Gentlemen (and ladies), please - in this location this activity is ILLEGAL, other than on the byways - look at the pictures, driving on a bridleway, driving through the woods, weaving through the trees, nobody has the legal right to do that here!
I am not some 4x4bigot, anti-off-road lobbyist - I have made this perfectly clear already. I am trying to explore the options for preventing illegal use and damage to common land / ancient woodland - maybe the ground will recover by natural means, but at the moment it is not! I have looked at it over the last 20 years and seen it getting progressivley more and more damaged - it never recovers in the summer now, there is no longer the plant life that used to be here, the roots that used to bind the ground together are no longer there, the huge pools of water created in these mud holes never used to be there! It simply isn't able to recover on its own - all the top soil has gone and the clay substrate is exposed, nothing grows here anymore.
300bhp/ton With regards your picture of the poached field and how you would cross it without leaving tracks - I would approach it thus. Arrive at the field, assess the ground as too wet and likely to be damaged by driving on it, turn around and find an alternative route or go home. Call me old fashioned, but it seems common-sensical that if your leisure pursuit is going to cause damage such that it is going to detract from someone else being able to enjoy a resource you desist or postpone your leisure pursuit until such time as it won't inconvenience others....
I very much get the impression I am beating my head against the wall here and those pro-4x4 voices will argue that there is nothing wrong with the activities depicted in my photos irrespective of how much damage it may cause or where any moral obligation may lie.
OpulentBob and RedDevil, thank you for your constructive posts, I will start looking into these with the local council.
I am not some 4x4bigot, anti-off-road lobbyist - I have made this perfectly clear already. I am trying to explore the options for preventing illegal use and damage to common land / ancient woodland - maybe the ground will recover by natural means, but at the moment it is not! I have looked at it over the last 20 years and seen it getting progressivley more and more damaged - it never recovers in the summer now, there is no longer the plant life that used to be here, the roots that used to bind the ground together are no longer there, the huge pools of water created in these mud holes never used to be there! It simply isn't able to recover on its own - all the top soil has gone and the clay substrate is exposed, nothing grows here anymore.
300bhp/ton With regards your picture of the poached field and how you would cross it without leaving tracks - I would approach it thus. Arrive at the field, assess the ground as too wet and likely to be damaged by driving on it, turn around and find an alternative route or go home. Call me old fashioned, but it seems common-sensical that if your leisure pursuit is going to cause damage such that it is going to detract from someone else being able to enjoy a resource you desist or postpone your leisure pursuit until such time as it won't inconvenience others....
car crazy said:
It's took the OP 6 pages to admit most of the lanes in his pics are legal, my golf course has worse tracks on it than that and its in the cumbrian fells.
so where's my prize I was the only one to call the OP a NIMBY and I'm right
Eh? I said there are two byways, right from the outset I have said this - the photos I have published clearly show vehicle tracks on bridleways, virgin woodland and all over the place - very much NOT on the byways. ALL of this is illegal here - surely that isn't hard to comprehend? so where's my prize I was the only one to call the OP a NIMBY and I'm rightI very much get the impression I am beating my head against the wall here and those pro-4x4 voices will argue that there is nothing wrong with the activities depicted in my photos irrespective of how much damage it may cause or where any moral obligation may lie.
OpulentBob and RedDevil, thank you for your constructive posts, I will start looking into these with the local council.
Sorry, I need to address alot of this and will do so in the text below
However a point I didn't pick up, if it is private land, then the Police will be able to do nothing, it will be down to the land owner to take action, and to a certain degree prevent people gaining access. Nobody else can claim people are there without permission, only them.
Like I said, it is common land - which is privately owned but open to the public through a Scheme of Management, administered by the local council. The bylaws do not permit access to vehicles - full stop. Anyone driving there is breaking the law, unless they are on a byway - simple
It is a public right of way! Nobody has a right to cause damage to a public right of way - it is arguably criminal damage or at least 'irresponsible use'. Whatever happened to the old adage of 'take only pictures, leave only footprints'.... Motorists using byways should at the very least do so responsibly - are you seriously suggesting that the damage pictured could be regarded as responsible use?
YES, I do know this for certain - I agree it is an important point because absolutely all the damage seen here has been done by private off-road vehicles. These byways are NOT used by farm (or any other commercial) vehicles.
because, apart from all the other things, off-roading here is illegal! that isn't suitable in anyone's book. Doing it legally would be a start...
As a rule if you go round telling people they can't do something, even more so if they aren't actually hurting anybody or causing any real harm, then it tends to rile them up more than anything.
I agree. However, in this case they are not only doing something illegal, but also causing harm to the environment, which in turn is denying other individuals access to recreational areas - which tends to rile the other users up more than anything. Its a bit like asking for advice on the internet and it being suggested that one has posted 'blatant lies' but we will gloss over that and keep it gentlemanly
the BestOfBothWorlds link posted by Red Devil is enlightening - have a read of it. They suggest the predominant use of a byway is normally by walkers, horse riders and cyclists. I don't believe these byways would have suffered the damage that they have if they had been used predominantly by these users. To answer your question, YES, if the byway is not able to cope with 'traffic' in the wetter months, they should be closed and only open during the summer (much like parts of the Ridgeway) - it would be logical.
Honestly I'm happy to help were I can, but I think some of these claims do boarder on the ridiculous and are not in line with an unbiased view on what is likely to occur by using such things in their intended way?
I am sorry you feel that way and that I have not been able to put forward a reasoned case or argument - I don't believe I am being particularly biased here and appreciate both sides of this argument (don't forget I have and do engage in off-roading myself and don't hold myself up as a paragon of virtue) but the damage on the ground speaks for itself. Lets agree to disagree here
I don't want to prevent people using it at all - I would like it to be passable to all class of user - if that means restricting, say 4x4 use, so that the rest of the other classes of user (horse riders, pedestrians, cyclists etc.) get the benefit of being able to use it, so be it. You argue it is still passable - I argue it isn't, you couldn't get a pushchair, for example, through that quagmire. Again, we will have to agree to disagree here.
It's a muddy track in trees. If you've ever driven on such terrain you'd know how slippery it is. It's just physics that tracks will be made and erosion will happen.
But erosion also happens without vehicles. And you must conceded it had been very very wet of late. If you took these pictures in the middle of a dry summer they would look totally different.
I freely concede that it has been an incredibly wet year. In the summer it actually doesn't look very different any more as the water does not drain from the 'bomb holes'. One would expect responsible users to conduct their activities with due consideration for the prevailing weather and environment - much as they have to in most other 'sports'.
I'll be perfectly honest and say I can't see a single area where there isn't a possible foot route. And lets not forget 4x4's don't bring all that water. The water would exist anyhow, so chances are if the ground is that soft it would be just as "impassable' on foot even if a vehicle had never driven on it.
I admit you can see the tracks and were vehicles have been. But as I've said, if you tarmaced them, it'd be far more noticeable. And it doesn't stop the trees or wildlife growing by the vehicle tracks being there.
You are missing the point here - you can get by on foot via an alternative route, but not on the byway. This in itself is damaging the flora and causing erosion. The water does exist, but would have naturally drained away through the bog which has now been turned into a 'bomb hole'. It can't drain away from there because the top soil has been eroded down to the clay substrate and an artificial 'pond' formed. Of course the vehicle tracks stop the trees and wildlife growing! The vehicles are driving over the wildlife - an eco-system isn't just limited to the big trees you can see, you know. You cannot argue that the vehicles driving over the ground and creating tracks is not hindering wildlife and plant growth....
The ground will easily recovery naturally. As for drying out, again the vehicles don't make the water - it's already there. So it'd be wet regardless. Although if you are basing it on last summer which was very wet in its entirety, then it isn't a logical conclusion. Also remember places in woods need to remain wet in summer - else where will plants get water from?
Oh dear, I wasn't aware you were a botanist or naturalist In which case I will gladly concede and bow to your greater knowledge of the local flora and drainage in this area, as you seem to know it well - the ground may recover.... lets re-visit this in the Autumn and see how its getting on.
Why would I want to ban horses? They are legally allowed to enjoy these beautiful woods and I would encourage it - 4x4s are not. When these bridleways were used exclusively by horses they were nowhere near as muddy, for your information.
Eh? you seem to have left your common sense and morality at home. You have neatly highlighted one of the key problems here - the base fact of allowing road traffic to use a road appears to have bypassed those users common sense as to whether it is actually a good idea or not - the notion that it may cause damage or be anti-social to others is brushed aside by the moral highrgound of being a 'legal right'. How can we redress this balance so people actually think before setting off cross country?
No, the byway isn't passable on foot - I can leave the byway and travel parallel to it to reach the same destination, but in doing so I will be trampling over previously untrodden ground. I have the right to do that, but A) is it right that I should have to because other byway users have not been considerate in their use? and B) is it right to begin damaging the flora on my detoured route so that I can reach my destination?
I really don't understand your problem, most of what makes it difficult to pass on foot is water - which has nothing directly to do with 4x4's. If dry this would be 100% passable with ease.
Yes, if dry it would. However its wet and when its wet 4x4 use makes the byways muddier and less passable, that is a fact. So what would you have other byway users do? Only use it on sunny days after a drought sort of thing, or do you have something practical in mind?;)
As they stand now they are still highly passable, but lets not forget you are likely there through choice, not for commuting. You have the option to take a different route, or wear welly boots if you do want to pass.
Excuse me? Are you seriously suggesting that I can 'go somewhere else or lump it' how immensely magnanimous of you - I am sure the reverse sentiment expressed by, say the Ramblers to a 4x4 club would be equally well received.... Lets not forget, we live in a democracy and have equal rights here - nobody has the exclusive right to use a byway, particularly if that is to the detriment of others.
I'm still not against helping you, but from all available evidence you do appear to have an agenda to "stop this action" because you disagree with it and don't like it - on a personal level. Not because it is actually doing any real harm.
I say this as you don't seem to be wanting to prevent use of 4x4's in areas you say are legal - but you also seem determined to stop them using legal routes too. Which would be the obvious alternative to point 4x4 owners at if they are somewhere they shouldn't. I don't want to prevent the use of 4x4s in legal areas -
We aren't going to see eye-to-eye on this as, to my increasing amazement, you do not see any 'real harm'. I am very surprised that the evidence I have offered here and by email has not shown you that much of this activity is illegal and damaging to the countryside - yes, I have an agenda to "stop this action" because I disagree with it - because it is LARGELY ILLEGAL and casuing criminal damage. The byway issue is seperate but related in as much as I feel morally obliged to fight for the rights of ALL users to be able to use the byways and that the activities of certain groups should be curtailed if their actions are prohibiting such use for everyone else. It is the old adage of a selfish few spoiling it for everyone else.
'Not in my backyard' does seem to override your entire point.
You have rather undermined yourself with this parting shot as it shows you haven't really understood the point of the whole post (or I haven't explained it well enough). Thanks for your input all the same, it has brought up some useful dailogue.300bhp/ton said:
larrylamb11 said:
The land being driven on (where it isn't byway) is common land - motorised vehicles are expressly prohibited from driving on common land (without permission from the land owner, whom I know and no, he hasn't given any permission).
I've sent you an email.However a point I didn't pick up, if it is private land, then the Police will be able to do nothing, it will be down to the land owner to take action, and to a certain degree prevent people gaining access. Nobody else can claim people are there without permission, only them.
Like I said, it is common land - which is privately owned but open to the public through a Scheme of Management, administered by the local council. The bylaws do not permit access to vehicles - full stop. Anyone driving there is breaking the law, unless they are on a byway - simple
larrylamb11 said:
There is also an issue with excessive damage to byways from over-use by 4x4s and motorised vehicles
Excessive is not easy to define, in winter and when wet (which it is at present) then it is not excessive damage. I'll touch on this with regards to your pictures in a mo, but the use of the word 'excessive' is not advisable IMO.It is a public right of way! Nobody has a right to cause damage to a public right of way - it is arguably criminal damage or at least 'irresponsible use'. Whatever happened to the old adage of 'take only pictures, leave only footprints'.... Motorists using byways should at the very least do so responsibly - are you seriously suggesting that the damage pictured could be regarded as responsible use?
larrylamb11 said:
- these byways are NOT being used by any farm machinery
Do you know this for certain, as most tracks are used at some point. It might just be it isn't daily, or less regular at certain times of the year. I'm not saying you are wrong, but again this is a rather important point to actually get right.YES, I do know this for certain - I agree it is an important point because absolutely all the damage seen here has been done by private off-road vehicles. These byways are NOT used by farm (or any other commercial) vehicles.
larrylamb11 said:
If you are a 4x4 driver, what would persuade you not to use a particular area but to seek out a more appropriate place to off-road?
Very serious question. What makes you think, support and define that this isn't a suitable area? Or more importantly how would you define a 'suitable area'?because, apart from all the other things, off-roading here is illegal! that isn't suitable in anyone's book. Doing it legally would be a start...
As a rule if you go round telling people they can't do something, even more so if they aren't actually hurting anybody or causing any real harm, then it tends to rile them up more than anything.
I agree. However, in this case they are not only doing something illegal, but also causing harm to the environment, which in turn is denying other individuals access to recreational areas - which tends to rile the other users up more than anything. Its a bit like asking for advice on the internet and it being suggested that one has posted 'blatant lies'
but we will gloss over that and keep it gentlemanlylarrylamb11 said:
What are the laws on causing damage to a byway?
Another question, as a by-way is a legal dirt road, how do you expect it to be used and not cause damage? Only open it on sunny days after a drought sort of thing, or do you have something practical in mind?the BestOfBothWorlds link posted by Red Devil is enlightening - have a read of it. They suggest the predominant use of a byway is normally by walkers, horse riders and cyclists. I don't believe these byways would have suffered the damage that they have if they had been used predominantly by these users. To answer your question, YES, if the byway is not able to cope with 'traffic' in the wetter months, they should be closed and only open during the summer (much like parts of the Ridgeway) - it would be logical.
Honestly I'm happy to help were I can, but I think some of these claims do boarder on the ridiculous and are not in line with an unbiased view on what is likely to occur by using such things in their intended way?
I am sorry you feel that way and that I have not been able to put forward a reasoned case or argument - I don't believe I am being particularly biased here and appreciate both sides of this argument (don't forget I have and do engage in off-roading myself and don't hold myself up as a paragon of virtue) but the damage on the ground speaks for itself. Lets agree to disagree here
larrylamb11 said:
Some pictures:-
Ancient woodland, in an AONB, turned into what looks like a 'pay & play' site - there is a byway, now impassable, that skirts the edge of this.
Certainly doesn't look impassable. But can I ask another serious question, if you want to prevent people using it all - what use it by being passable? Ancient woodland, in an AONB, turned into what looks like a 'pay & play' site - there is a byway, now impassable, that skirts the edge of this.
I don't want to prevent people using it at all - I would like it to be passable to all class of user - if that means restricting, say 4x4 use, so that the rest of the other classes of user (horse riders, pedestrians, cyclists etc.) get the benefit of being able to use it, so be it. You argue it is still passable - I argue it isn't, you couldn't get a pushchair, for example, through that quagmire. Again, we will have to agree to disagree here.
It's a muddy track in trees. If you've ever driven on such terrain you'd know how slippery it is. It's just physics that tracks will be made and erosion will happen.
But erosion also happens without vehicles. And you must conceded it had been very very wet of late. If you took these pictures in the middle of a dry summer they would look totally different.
I freely concede that it has been an incredibly wet year. In the summer it actually doesn't look very different any more as the water does not drain from the 'bomb holes'. One would expect responsible users to conduct their activities with due consideration for the prevailing weather and environment - much as they have to in most other 'sports'.
I'll be perfectly honest and say I can't see a single area where there isn't a possible foot route. And lets not forget 4x4's don't bring all that water. The water would exist anyhow, so chances are if the ground is that soft it would be just as "impassable' on foot even if a vehicle had never driven on it.
I admit you can see the tracks and were vehicles have been. But as I've said, if you tarmaced them, it'd be far more noticeable. And it doesn't stop the trees or wildlife growing by the vehicle tracks being there.
You are missing the point here - you can get by on foot via an alternative route, but not on the byway. This in itself is damaging the flora and causing erosion. The water does exist, but would have naturally drained away through the bog which has now been turned into a 'bomb hole'. It can't drain away from there because the top soil has been eroded down to the clay substrate and an artificial 'pond' formed. Of course the vehicle tracks stop the trees and wildlife growing! The vehicles are driving over the wildlife - an eco-system isn't just limited to the big trees you can see, you know. You cannot argue that the vehicles driving over the ground and creating tracks is not hindering wildlife and plant growth....
larrylamb11 said:
Clearly there is no way alot of ^ that ground could ever recover by natural means - the damage is far too great and it no longer dries out in the summer.
Disagree 100%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%The ground will easily recovery naturally. As for drying out, again the vehicles don't make the water - it's already there. So it'd be wet regardless. Although if you are basing it on last summer which was very wet in its entirety, then it isn't a logical conclusion. Also remember places in woods need to remain wet in summer - else where will plants get water from?
Oh dear, I wasn't aware you were a botanist or naturalist
In which case I will gladly concede and bow to your greater knowledge of the local flora and drainage in this area, as you seem to know it well - the ground may recover.... lets re-visit this in the Autumn and see how its getting on.larrylamb11 said:
Specific evidence of illegal off-roading? How about this..... note: those are bridleway signs.....
So once you've banned 4x4's and it's still muddy, will you be trying to ban horses as well?Why would I want to ban horses? They are legally allowed to enjoy these beautiful woods and I would encourage it - 4x4s are not. When these bridleways were used exclusively by horses they were nowhere near as muddy, for your information.
larrylamb11 said:
Now for some damage to byways..... yes, technically it is legal to drive here, but is it really a good idea when it creates damage like this?
So it's more about your sensibility than the base fact of allowing road traffic to use a road?Eh? you seem to have left your common sense and morality at home. You have neatly highlighted one of the key problems here - the base fact of allowing road traffic to use a road appears to have bypassed those users common sense as to whether it is actually a good idea or not - the notion that it may cause damage or be anti-social to others is brushed aside by the moral highrgound of being a 'legal right'. How can we redress this balance so people actually think before setting off cross country?
larrylamb11 said:
you can see that it is no longer possible for other users to use the actual byway, having to skirt along the edges which effectively widens it.
So it is passable then??No, the byway isn't passable on foot - I can leave the byway and travel parallel to it to reach the same destination, but in doing so I will be trampling over previously untrodden ground. I have the right to do that, but A) is it right that I should have to because other byway users have not been considerate in their use? and B) is it right to begin damaging the flora on my detoured route so that I can reach my destination?
I really don't understand your problem, most of what makes it difficult to pass on foot is water - which has nothing directly to do with 4x4's. If dry this would be 100% passable with ease.
Yes, if dry it would. However its wet and when its wet 4x4 use makes the byways muddier and less passable, that is a fact. So what would you have other byway users do? Only use it on sunny days after a drought sort of thing, or do you have something practical in mind?;)
As they stand now they are still highly passable, but lets not forget you are likely there through choice, not for commuting. You have the option to take a different route, or wear welly boots if you do want to pass.
Excuse me? Are you seriously suggesting that I can 'go somewhere else or lump it' how immensely magnanimous of you - I am sure the reverse sentiment expressed by, say the Ramblers to a 4x4 club would be equally well received.... Lets not forget, we live in a democracy and have equal rights here - nobody has the exclusive right to use a byway, particularly if that is to the detriment of others.
I'm still not against helping you, but from all available evidence you do appear to have an agenda to "stop this action" because you disagree with it and don't like it - on a personal level. Not because it is actually doing any real harm.
I say this as you don't seem to be wanting to prevent use of 4x4's in areas you say are legal - but you also seem determined to stop them using legal routes too. Which would be the obvious alternative to point 4x4 owners at if they are somewhere they shouldn't. I don't want to prevent the use of 4x4s in legal areas -
We aren't going to see eye-to-eye on this as, to my increasing amazement, you do not see any 'real harm'. I am very surprised that the evidence I have offered here and by email has not shown you that much of this activity is illegal and damaging to the countryside - yes, I have an agenda to "stop this action" because I disagree with it - because it is LARGELY ILLEGAL and casuing criminal damage. The byway issue is seperate but related in as much as I feel morally obliged to fight for the rights of ALL users to be able to use the byways and that the activities of certain groups should be curtailed if their actions are prohibiting such use for everyone else. It is the old adage of a selfish few spoiling it for everyone else.
'Not in my backyard' does seem to override your entire point.
Efbe said:
stop getting embroiled in arguments, there is no point and they won't help your cause. just ignore anything not pertinent to your use!
Now I did give you an alternative, and you have ignored it. As far as I can see there has been no other solution that could possibly work.
to say it again, find an alternative site, block this site if possible and put up a sign telling people where the alternative site is.
It is easy to get sucked in, but I agree - re-focusing now.Now I did give you an alternative, and you have ignored it. As far as I can see there has been no other solution that could possibly work.
to say it again, find an alternative site, block this site if possible and put up a sign telling people where the alternative site is.
Sorry, I meant to comment on your alternative and thank you for it. I could never get away with your suggestion on numerous counts - 1)It is not my land to block off, 2)It is illegal to block a byway (which is the access being used to gain entry to the common), 3)There aren't any grouse around here and as far as I am aware there are no shooting rights over the land (its public access, so could easily throw up a conflict issue), 4)The 'boundary' to the land gives rise to potential access points all along it - you could never block off or fence the whole lot. I guess it could be trenched the whole way round if there were the resources but would be a mamoth task.
It is a good idea to put up a sign with directions to the local 'pay&play' site though and I will look into that - thanks.
Your suggestion is by no means out of the question, but it would entail going through the correct channels, having the byways downgraded to restricted, dealing with the local Council and land owner etc. - it is all do-able given time if that route becomes the only one left.
crusty said:
Just to update this thread with some reality...
I was due to ride the Witley Classic Enduro this weekend ...received the following email
Witley MCC regrets to inform you that we have ...to withdraw.... We are terribly sorry ....
Anyone want to have another guess at why people ride illegally???????
I am genuinely sorry to hear that your event has been cancelled - I fully apprceiate that it must be enormously frustrating. Hopefully you can find another event to attend where you can engage in your chosen leisure pursuit. I was due to ride the Witley Classic Enduro this weekend ...received the following email
Witley MCC regrets to inform you that we have ...to withdraw.... We are terribly sorry ....
Anyone want to have another guess at why people ride illegally???????
I am guessing people ride illegally because they are ultimately selfish, have no regard for the law, no sense of resoponsibility, morals or conscience.... but you tell me why you think they do it and we will see if we can start addressing these reasons, STOP them from doing it and redress the 'anarchy'...
crusty said:
Indeed
Now suppose you had an interest in off roading. (obviously you don't)
You tried to be polite to other non-motorised users and tried to be respectful of their needs, but were constantly met with hostility
You stuck to the legal places, but over time they became fewer and fewer.
So you did the decent thing and found new places to ride, but they became further and further away.
Then it got to a stage that events started being cancelled and that no-one wanted you to ride or drive anywhere.
You are now left with two choices
1. Give up
2. fk eh all
For the record I don't ride illegally, but I fully support those that do, because Nimbys like you do not accept that there is enough land for all to enjoy their various sports
I am a firm believer in live and let live and the wkers on this thread that cannot support those of us who want to muck about with bikes and cars in the mud can fk off.
I am sure there will be some clever answers to this, so go on shoot me down in flames
Hmmm... I appreciate that this is an emotive subject - it is for me too, but I am not sure you have really helped with this post....Now suppose you had an interest in off roading. (obviously you don't)
You tried to be polite to other non-motorised users and tried to be respectful of their needs, but were constantly met with hostility
You stuck to the legal places, but over time they became fewer and fewer.
So you did the decent thing and found new places to ride, but they became further and further away.
Then it got to a stage that events started being cancelled and that no-one wanted you to ride or drive anywhere.
You are now left with two choices
1. Give up
2. f
k eh allFor the record I don't ride illegally, but I fully support those that do, because Nimbys like you do not accept that there is enough land for all to enjoy their various sports
I am a firm believer in live and let live and the w
kers on this thread that cannot support those of us who want to muck about with bikes and cars in the mud can fk off.I am sure there will be some clever answers to this, so go on shoot me down in flames
I too am a firm believer in live and let live and DO support those who want to muck about off road legally and with consideration for the environment and others - I have done it (legally) myself - I certainly don't support those who do it illegaly and never will. What gives anyone the right to break the law, damage the environment, inconvenience and deprive others of their legal rights? Why on earth can't off-roaders (illegal or otherwise) accept the fact that there ISN'T enough land in the UK for everyone to enjoy their various pursuits? If there WAS enough there would never be any conflicts. There are conflicts and there is illegal use - how do we go about stamping it out so we can all go about enjoying what is left (and rapidly diminishing) legally and responsibly?
Given the two choices you outline above I would 1) Give up, becuase I am a reasonable, considerate and essentially law-abiding citizen of this democratic nation...
Caulkhead said:
Time for a reasoned view on this thread.
I've been off-roading and green-laning since the eighties .....
Anyone who can't tell the difference between a pay and play day and a green lane shouldn't be laning.
So for me that's the basis of it - laning has become anti-social because laners have become anti-social. .... Now most people see laners as nothing more than yobs who don't give a toss about the environment and given your average contemporary laner, I can't blame them.
A very well put post and a great deal I agree with. The reality should be that any seasoned, reasonable green laner would approach the byways near me, assess them as too damaged to pass without causing further damage and move on to somewhere else - it is the 'yobbo' element that have been ruining it for everyone else. How can we stamp out this 'yobbo', "do anything we please" brigade? Anti-social is an apt description.I've been off-roading and green-laning since the eighties .....
Anyone who can't tell the difference between a pay and play day and a green lane shouldn't be laning.
So for me that's the basis of it - laning has become anti-social because laners have become anti-social. .... Now most people see laners as nothing more than yobs who don't give a toss about the environment and given your average contemporary laner, I can't blame them.
TheHeretic said:
I agree, but the considerate layers are out there, and always have been. Unfortunately they are being treated wrongly as knobs. These are the chaps who, as you say, use tread lightly, close gates behind them, pull up for other lane users, etc. As I have already said on this thread, I resent being piled in with the hooligans but looking at this thread the 'off road brigade' are all piled together in one tarred and feathered group.
I would like to think that I am not so bigoted as to group 'all-green-laners' together and recognise that there are considerate, law-abiding laners who approach their pursuit in the gentlemanly manner one would expect. There are also an exponentially growing number of hooligans - I think it is fair to assume that the majority of damage depicted in my photos on page 6 is not caused by the former. Is there a way that the responsible green laners can help tp re-educate the 'hooligans' to raise the overall standard of conduct off-road, so that conflicts like those experienced here are minimised?rscott said:
crusty said:
Serious question, if you want to ride or drive off road in the UK and all your options are being shut down, what do you do?
Serious answer - you campaign for legal options. If that fails, then you stop. Or you break the law and risk prosecution.For an example of the above - hunting.
To bring this back on topic, many thanks for the interesting and varied responses and useful suggestions, many of which I have acted upon (local council contacted etc.).
To recap - I am experiencing two (related) problems - the principal and major problem is one of illegal off-roading, motorised vehicles (principally 4x4s) driving over Common land where there are NO vehicle access rights. By doing this they are severely damaging ancient woodland classified as an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, driving bridle paths, footpaths and through virgin woodland. Even since this thread was started a new completely virgin area of Common land has been pushed onto and severely (criminally) damaged with vehicle tracks.
The second, related, problem is that of severe damage to byways that, whilst legal to use, are being damaged by vehicle use such that they are no longer passable for other classes of user - I am asking the council to assess these to see if the byway can either be restored so that they are passable again or re-classified to prevent vehicle use and thus limit damage caused by vehicles (even though that will prevent me from driving my local byways as I have in summers past). It is fair to assume that the most likely cause of damage to these byways is from a growing crowd of 'irresponsible' off-roaders who have no regard for the law or environment and who are using these byways for 'mud plugging' and as access to then engage in illegal off-roading on Common land (clearly law-abiding, reasonable and responsible off-roaders would not engage in any of these activities).
So, does anybody have any further suggestions on how to prevent this illegal off-roading? how to redress the balance of byway use so that everyone can enjoy this beautiful part of the country? who else to contact to bring about a resolution to these issues? or anything to suggest that might help me prevent an area I care about being criminally damaged?
UPDATE:
Its been over 2 years since I started this thread but I felt it worth returning to offer an update - the punchline being that Traffic Regulation Orders have been applied to the byways worst affected, preventing 4x4 use.
It sounds simple, but it was really quite a lot of work and didn't come before a significant amount of further damage was done to the ancient woodland which resulted in a tangible public safety issue. Finally we managed to arrange a meeting with the local Council, the land owner, Parish Council reps., the local Wildlife Trust and the Police (to include a site visit) which graphically illustrated the scale of the problem and that there was now a clear need to take action..... That action plan slowly ground forward and included installing physical barriers to prevent 4x4 access (put in by the Wildlife Trust), fencing to limit the risk to public safety and the application of the Traffic Regulation Orders to forbid 4x4s from using the byways.
The TRO's have been in force for nearly a year now.
So how is it working? Well.... 4x4 use has certainly diminished. There are still a hardcore of lawless individuals illegally using the byways, ploughing over the physical barriers or simply ploughing through the woodland, over footpaths or similar to gain access. There is little legislation or preventative measures one can implement to stop those who have no regard for the law, but the Police are being receptive to specific reports of vehicles / individuals. Everyone in the area is primed to note vehicle registrations for any vehicles seen breaching the TROs and report it, so there is local communal action too.
Sadly the ancient woodland has not fared well and the worst affected areas around the byways remain a terrible mess, decades of habitat, leaf litter and soil destroyed and washed away to reveal the bare clay below. I am sure new life will spring forth in time and given enough decades it will begin to obscure the scars left behind. Hopefully the Wildlife Trust and local Council will restore the byways so they can be used by all again in due course and massage the worst of the damage back into the landscape with some deft excavator work at the same time.
So there you have it... we have achieved something at least and hopefully there may be some useful pointers in this thread to help anybody else suffering a similar plague in their area - keep plugging away and you can get worthwhile results
Its been over 2 years since I started this thread but I felt it worth returning to offer an update - the punchline being that Traffic Regulation Orders have been applied to the byways worst affected, preventing 4x4 use.
It sounds simple, but it was really quite a lot of work and didn't come before a significant amount of further damage was done to the ancient woodland which resulted in a tangible public safety issue. Finally we managed to arrange a meeting with the local Council, the land owner, Parish Council reps., the local Wildlife Trust and the Police (to include a site visit) which graphically illustrated the scale of the problem and that there was now a clear need to take action..... That action plan slowly ground forward and included installing physical barriers to prevent 4x4 access (put in by the Wildlife Trust), fencing to limit the risk to public safety and the application of the Traffic Regulation Orders to forbid 4x4s from using the byways.
The TRO's have been in force for nearly a year now.
So how is it working? Well.... 4x4 use has certainly diminished. There are still a hardcore of lawless individuals illegally using the byways, ploughing over the physical barriers or simply ploughing through the woodland, over footpaths or similar to gain access. There is little legislation or preventative measures one can implement to stop those who have no regard for the law, but the Police are being receptive to specific reports of vehicles / individuals. Everyone in the area is primed to note vehicle registrations for any vehicles seen breaching the TROs and report it, so there is local communal action too.
Sadly the ancient woodland has not fared well and the worst affected areas around the byways remain a terrible mess, decades of habitat, leaf litter and soil destroyed and washed away to reveal the bare clay below. I am sure new life will spring forth in time and given enough decades it will begin to obscure the scars left behind. Hopefully the Wildlife Trust and local Council will restore the byways so they can be used by all again in due course and massage the worst of the damage back into the landscape with some deft excavator work at the same time.
So there you have it... we have achieved something at least
and hopefully there may be some useful pointers in this thread to help anybody else suffering a similar plague in their area - keep plugging away and you can get worthwhile results - sigh*... it looks like we have to go over some old ground again...
Problem 1) An area of Ancient Woodland in an AONB has been treated as a 'pay & play' site. Driving ANYWHERE other than on a byway in this Ancient Woodland is ILLEGAL. Period.
Problem 2) The hard of thinking have been mainly using byways to access the Ancient Woodland, damaging the surface of the byway in the process of yobbish off-roading and in the pursuit of access, an action that is in contravention of the Highways Act 1980, section 131, for one...... The byways became so damaged that they were impassable to pretty much anything other than a 4x4.
Solution. Close byways to prevent hard of thinking from accessing Ancient Woodland and further destroying byway surface. TRO affords Police greater powers to take action against anyone contravening TRO.
In between the arguing on this thread there have been some useful suggestions on how to approach dealing with the problems as noted. They have helped get to where we are today. As the OP, I had a good barrage of NIMBY, accusatory and inflammatory replies and comments in the earlier parts of this post, all opinions to which the originators are entitled. All I care about is that 4x4s are no longer illegally driving over and damaging an area of Ancient Woodland in an AONB to the same degree as they were before and I can reasonably hold my head up and say that I didn't stand by when I saw it happening, but stood up to the plate and did something about it. TROs are not applied willy-nilly and it took a good deal of effort on behalf of all those who cared about this area, together with further damage to the Woodland and multi-organisation meetings for it to be agreed that it was a necessary part of the action plan to apply TROs. It is a sad but unavoidable fact that a few mindless individuals DO ruin it for everyone else..... Its worth considering which camp one wants to be in the next time one sets off green laning.
Retroman said:
Just to clarify, is the byway access closed to all vehicles or just 4x4 vehicles?
I only ask as the term "4x4" is very vague.
There are a number of byways affected and the restrictions vary from all traffic to all motorised vehicles except those with less than 3 wheels!I only ask as the term "4x4" is very vague.
Irrespective, anyone damaging the surface of these byways by driving on them falls foul of the Highways Act 1980 section 131 and likely the Police Reform Act 2002 Section 59 (as is the case with all byways).
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