Tax fine query
Discussion
Hoping somebody can shed some light. I sold my old bike (as part ex) to a dealer on the 13th September 2012. The tax ran out end of September. I am now receiving letters from a debt collection agency chasing me for £80 for failing to tax the vehicle.
I have proof (from DVLA) that I no longer own the bike, however this is dated January 2013 (the date when the dealer sold the bike on eventually).
I can however obtain proof from the dealer that I sold the bike to him before the tax ran out.
Do I have a leg to stand on here or am I screwed?
To make matters worse, I keep getting brain dead "computer says no" type people on the phone - each party (DVLA, Collectica) keeps passing me onto the other, saying I can't appeal to them and it has to be done through the other one. Going round in circles
I have proof (from DVLA) that I no longer own the bike, however this is dated January 2013 (the date when the dealer sold the bike on eventually).
I can however obtain proof from the dealer that I sold the bike to him before the tax ran out.
Do I have a leg to stand on here or am I screwed?
To make matters worse, I keep getting brain dead "computer says no" type people on the phone - each party (DVLA, Collectica) keeps passing me onto the other, saying I can't appeal to them and it has to be done through the other one. Going round in circles
Alpinestars said:
I had a similar issue and when I got through to DVLA they put me through to one of the local DVLA offices. I've not had any chasers since I spoke to them.
The highly intelligent lady I spoke to was having none of it. Her response to everything I asked (including to speak to her superior) was that "you need to pay the fine or write to the collection agency, we can't do nothing" etc. KevinOctiScout said:
Another story which would be simply avoided by ALWAYS using Special Delivery when dealing with the DVLA.
Thank you captain hindsighttigger1 said:
Write to the DCA involved explaining that you dispute the debt and are taking it up the DVLA - that should keep them off your back briefly.
Write to DVLA, explaining that it was sold, that you sent proof of such a sale to them, and that you consider it dealt with.
You have anything that proves the date of sale? Invoice for new purchase etc?
Keep copies of all letters, and send recorded(?).
Yeah I have proof of the date of sale. Going to send letters out to both parties this week. Hopefully that will put an end to it.Write to DVLA, explaining that it was sold, that you sent proof of such a sale to them, and that you consider it dealt with.
You have anything that proves the date of sale? Invoice for new purchase etc?
Keep copies of all letters, and send recorded(?).
KevinOctiScout said:
MJDM said:
KevinOctiScout said:
Another story which would be simply avoided by ALWAYS using Special Delivery when dealing with the DVLA.
Thank you captain hindsightBump - could really do with some advice from the legal experts here.
I wrote to the DVLA enforcement centre, explaining the situation. I enclosed the receipt from the dealer showing the date that I sold my bike. I also explained to them that I could provide evidence from my insurance company showing that I stopped cover for said bike on the same date, should they require it.
I have received a response that looks like a generic template - it contains no reference to my individual case, nor the evidence I enclosed. It only contains a paragraph explaining why the late licencing penalty was introduced, etc etc.
I have requested a V991 dispute form. I would greatly appreciate any advice from some legal experts on here as to what I need to provide in order to win this appeal. I would have thought that proof of the transfer of my bike from the dealer would be enough? Otherwise it appears that am being fined £80 because of Royal Mail losing a letter.
Thanks in advance...
I wrote to the DVLA enforcement centre, explaining the situation. I enclosed the receipt from the dealer showing the date that I sold my bike. I also explained to them that I could provide evidence from my insurance company showing that I stopped cover for said bike on the same date, should they require it.
I have received a response that looks like a generic template - it contains no reference to my individual case, nor the evidence I enclosed. It only contains a paragraph explaining why the late licencing penalty was introduced, etc etc.
I have requested a V991 dispute form. I would greatly appreciate any advice from some legal experts on here as to what I need to provide in order to win this appeal. I would have thought that proof of the transfer of my bike from the dealer would be enough? Otherwise it appears that am being fined £80 because of Royal Mail losing a letter.
Thanks in advance...
Pontoneer said:
How did the dealer pay you for the bike ?
As long as it wasn't cash , you should be able to show the transaction from your bank records as evidence that it was sold at a particular time . If you have some sort of bill of sale from him agreeing to buy the bike on a certain date for a certain amount ( which matches your bank records ; even if you paid the same amount of cash into your account around the same time , a court would probably accept that as evidence of the sale ) , chances are you have all the evidence you need .
As others have alluded , the Interpretations Act will be helpful where you posted the notification off as required by law but it has gone astray .
I bought my new bike from the dealer, and used my old one in part exchange. I paid the difference using my debit card, so there is evidence of that transaction taking place.As long as it wasn't cash , you should be able to show the transaction from your bank records as evidence that it was sold at a particular time . If you have some sort of bill of sale from him agreeing to buy the bike on a certain date for a certain amount ( which matches your bank records ; even if you paid the same amount of cash into your account around the same time , a court would probably accept that as evidence of the sale ) , chances are you have all the evidence you need .
As others have alluded , the Interpretations Act will be helpful where you posted the notification off as required by law but it has gone astray .
Pontoneer said:
Tell them you will see them in court ; they will lose .
This is the only logical outcome I can imagine. I guess I am looking for some confirmation from somebody from a legal background, as if it did go to court, and I lost, I imagine I would then owe significantly more than the £80 fine.Pontoneer said:
Excellent - you presumably have a dated invoice from the dealer for the new bike and detailing the part exchange of the old one .
If you do a search on here , there are quoted cases where others have taken DVLA to court over exactly the same thing and have used the Interpretations Act ( which basically says that , once you have posted the form off as required by law , you have done all that is required of you and , effectively , DVLA would have to prove you never posted it ) .
I am no lawyer , but there should be some on here who can confirm this .
My own opinion is that it is wrong for an agency who make errors to then also be the arbiter of 'appeals' when things go wrong ; an appeal ought always to be to a higher authority , not the one who made the error in the first place .
I would be disinclined to 'appeal' and more inclined to 'reject' the fine and suggest that the proper place to argue the point is in court .
Yes, I have the invoice from the dealer, with all dates & details of the bikes present. It will take 7-10 days for my appeal documents to arrive - I will send this off with all the evidence and post back with the outcome. Thanks for the information regarding the Interpretations Act, I did not know about this before.If you do a search on here , there are quoted cases where others have taken DVLA to court over exactly the same thing and have used the Interpretations Act ( which basically says that , once you have posted the form off as required by law , you have done all that is required of you and , effectively , DVLA would have to prove you never posted it ) .
I am no lawyer , but there should be some on here who can confirm this .
My own opinion is that it is wrong for an agency who make errors to then also be the arbiter of 'appeals' when things go wrong ; an appeal ought always to be to a higher authority , not the one who made the error in the first place .
I would be disinclined to 'appeal' and more inclined to 'reject' the fine and suggest that the proper place to argue the point is in court .
Pontoneer said:
If it is of any help , the following is taken directly from the Act
References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
That's great, thanks. Going to go through these idiots. References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
Pontoneer said:
Failing the above , another idea may be to pay the £80 under duress to make the matter go away for now , but notifying them that you intend to then take DVLA to small claims court to claim it back ?
Not a chance - the thieving barstewards are not getting a penny from me if I can help it. Nimby said:
The V5C/3 (the yellow part) does say that you should phone the DVLA if after a month you haven't received confirmation you are no longer the Registered Keeper.
FWIW usually four vehicles in our household, changed regularly, and we've never had a problem with the DVLA.
Hmm yeah it does say that. I'm not sure what that means in terms of my case as a whole though. Really need to find an expert in the field... FWIW usually four vehicles in our household, changed regularly, and we've never had a problem with the DVLA.
I've never had a problem with the DVLA either. In ten years of buying / selling motors...
Mill Wheel said:
DON'T FORGET:
WHEN YOU SEND YOUR EVIDENCE, KEEP COPIES AND USE ROYAL MAIL GUARANTEED NEXT DAY DELIVERY.
It is not just signed for, it is separate from other mail and tarcked all the way.
It is worth the cost for the peace of mind.
Also, pass all the details of this to your MP - and your local paper!
Every correspondence between myself and the DVLA since this mishap happened has gone recorded... WHEN YOU SEND YOUR EVIDENCE, KEEP COPIES AND USE ROYAL MAIL GUARANTEED NEXT DAY DELIVERY.
It is not just signed for, it is separate from other mail and tarcked all the way.
It is worth the cost for the peace of mind.
Also, pass all the details of this to your MP - and your local paper!
For your reading pleasure (or more likely not) here is a copy of the letter I am writing to the DVLA. This is my last chance to correspond with the DVLA directly - if they refuse this appeal, my only other routes are to refer it to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman, or go to court.
For those reasons I want to get it right first time, if you think I have missed anything feel free to comment and let me know
For those reasons I want to get it right first time, if you think I have missed anything feel free to comment and let me know
MJDM's letter to the DVLA said:
Late Licensing Penalty (LLP) dispute form
Your dispute
1a – Please tell us why you think our decision is wrong. It is not enough to say ‘I disagree with this decision’ or ‘I do not think I am liable’.
I think your decision is wrong, because when I transferred my vehicle to (bike dealer) on 08/09/2012, I posted the V5C/3 part of the logbook by 1st class post. By doing this, I have satisfied my legal obligations in full. May I refer you to the Interpretation Act of 1978, section 7:
References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
Or, in other words, by posting the V5C/3 slip by 1st class mail at the time of the transfer, I have done everything required of me by law. It is up to the DVLA to prove that this did not happen, and not for me to prove that it did happen.
I did not receive an acknowledgement letter, however the DVLA have no statutory power requiring anyone to contact them should they not receive an acknowledgment letter.
2 – Please enclose the evidence that:
• Shows you had taxed the vehicle or made a sorn when it was due, or
• Demonstrates that you had told the DVLA of the sale or transfer of the vehicle before the breach of the CR.
I do not have any such evidence. This is because the V5C/3 slip that I posted at the time of the transfer of the vehicle did not reach the DVLA, or has been lost by the DVLA. Again, I have satisfied my legal obligations in full by posting the V5C/3 slip 1st class at the time of transfer. Legally, it is the duty of the DVLA to prove that this did not happen; I am under no legal obligation to prove that it did happen.
3 – Please tell us about any circumstances surrounding the breach that you feel we have not taken into account.
My previous correspondence with the DVLA regarding this matter contained the following:
• An explanation that I had sent the V5C/3 slip by first class mail at the time of transfer
• my argument that by doing so, I have satisfied my legal obligations in full
• evidence showing the date of the transfer of my vehicle to the dealer, which took place before the tax ran out
It is my opinion that none of this was taken to account. The letter I received in response contained no reference whatsoever to my individual case, or the evidence and explanations I supplied. To me, it looks like a generic template, simply explaining to me WHY the late licensing penalty exists.
Once again, I have supplied evidence which clearly shows that I transferred the vehicle before the date that the alleged offence of late tax payment took place. This is undeniable proof that I was no longer the owner of the vehicle when the tax ran out. I have even included a bank statement, which shows the transaction taking place. This can be matched to the debit card receipt, attached to the receipt of transfer.
In conclusion:
• I have supplied sufficient evidence to show that I transferred the vehicle on 08/09/2012, and was no longer the keeper on the date of the alleged offence of late tax payment
• I have informed you that I sent the V5C/3 part of the logbook by 1st class mail at the time of the transfer, and that by law, this was everything required of me
• I did not receive an acknowledgement letter from the DVLA, but the DVLA has no statutory power requiring anyone to contact them should they not receive an acknowledgment letter.
• Legally, I am under no obligation to prove that I sent the V5C/3 slip; by posting it 1st class, I have done everything required of me. It is up to the DVLA to prove that this did not happen.
I see the DVLA’s demands for me to pay this penalty as nothing short of attempted aggravated theft. I look forward to hearing your decision, and I would add that if the decision is not satisfactory, I will happily have the case referred to the PHSO, or see you in court.
Regards,
Your dispute
1a – Please tell us why you think our decision is wrong. It is not enough to say ‘I disagree with this decision’ or ‘I do not think I am liable’.
I think your decision is wrong, because when I transferred my vehicle to (bike dealer) on 08/09/2012, I posted the V5C/3 part of the logbook by 1st class post. By doing this, I have satisfied my legal obligations in full. May I refer you to the Interpretation Act of 1978, section 7:
References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
Or, in other words, by posting the V5C/3 slip by 1st class mail at the time of the transfer, I have done everything required of me by law. It is up to the DVLA to prove that this did not happen, and not for me to prove that it did happen.
I did not receive an acknowledgement letter, however the DVLA have no statutory power requiring anyone to contact them should they not receive an acknowledgment letter.
2 – Please enclose the evidence that:
• Shows you had taxed the vehicle or made a sorn when it was due, or
• Demonstrates that you had told the DVLA of the sale or transfer of the vehicle before the breach of the CR.
I do not have any such evidence. This is because the V5C/3 slip that I posted at the time of the transfer of the vehicle did not reach the DVLA, or has been lost by the DVLA. Again, I have satisfied my legal obligations in full by posting the V5C/3 slip 1st class at the time of transfer. Legally, it is the duty of the DVLA to prove that this did not happen; I am under no legal obligation to prove that it did happen.
3 – Please tell us about any circumstances surrounding the breach that you feel we have not taken into account.
My previous correspondence with the DVLA regarding this matter contained the following:
• An explanation that I had sent the V5C/3 slip by first class mail at the time of transfer
• my argument that by doing so, I have satisfied my legal obligations in full
• evidence showing the date of the transfer of my vehicle to the dealer, which took place before the tax ran out
It is my opinion that none of this was taken to account. The letter I received in response contained no reference whatsoever to my individual case, or the evidence and explanations I supplied. To me, it looks like a generic template, simply explaining to me WHY the late licensing penalty exists.
Once again, I have supplied evidence which clearly shows that I transferred the vehicle before the date that the alleged offence of late tax payment took place. This is undeniable proof that I was no longer the owner of the vehicle when the tax ran out. I have even included a bank statement, which shows the transaction taking place. This can be matched to the debit card receipt, attached to the receipt of transfer.
In conclusion:
• I have supplied sufficient evidence to show that I transferred the vehicle on 08/09/2012, and was no longer the keeper on the date of the alleged offence of late tax payment
• I have informed you that I sent the V5C/3 part of the logbook by 1st class mail at the time of the transfer, and that by law, this was everything required of me
• I did not receive an acknowledgement letter from the DVLA, but the DVLA has no statutory power requiring anyone to contact them should they not receive an acknowledgment letter.
• Legally, I am under no obligation to prove that I sent the V5C/3 slip; by posting it 1st class, I have done everything required of me. It is up to the DVLA to prove that this did not happen.
I see the DVLA’s demands for me to pay this penalty as nothing short of attempted aggravated theft. I look forward to hearing your decision, and I would add that if the decision is not satisfactory, I will happily have the case referred to the PHSO, or see you in court.
Regards,
So, after 6 letters from a debt collection agency threatening me with bailiff visits and being taken to court, and 2 previous responses from the DVLA ignoring my appeal and telling me I was liable for the LLP, here is a letter I received this morning from the DVLA enforcement center:
DVLA said:
Dear MJDM
Thank you for returning the completed Dispute form (V991) sent to you in respect of the Late Licencing Penalty (LLP).
Having reviewed the information provided, I confirm it is inappropriate to pursue the LLP. I am sorry that this was not identified previously. The LLP is withdrawn, the enforcement case has now been closed and the vehicle record updated accordingly. Please retain this letter as confirmation of our records.
Your sincerely
Some guy from the DVLA
Thank you for returning the completed Dispute form (V991) sent to you in respect of the Late Licencing Penalty (LLP).
Having reviewed the information provided, I confirm it is inappropriate to pursue the LLP. I am sorry that this was not identified previously. The LLP is withdrawn, the enforcement case has now been closed and the vehicle record updated accordingly. Please retain this letter as confirmation of our records.
Your sincerely
Some guy from the DVLA
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