Motor Trader & SOGA / Refund
Discussion
Hello
I very recently (2 months ago) began trading part-time in cars with a slight performance edge (retro-classics and similar). I have sold 3 cars in total over a 2 month period.
On Wednesday last week I sold a 1991 Golf GTi MK2 with 160,000 miles. I advertised the car through e-bay but it was sold outside of this. I purchased the car 6 weeks ago with a fresh MOT and it looked in great order.
I replaced the brakes and spent a day or so getting it ready for sale. I did a professional detailed advert description and included many pictures.
The car was sold for just over 2k.
The following day I had an e-mail from the new keeper stating his local mechanic had given the car a once over on his ramp and was shocked at the poor condition of the underside of the car. It would seem that where the rear sub-frame mounts to the floor rust has set in in a bad way. This along with some very poor welding at the front of the car.
The mechanic suggested that the car is dangerous to drive and that the MOT is not legitimate. The mechanic is making out that it would be a huge job to to make the car safe.
Today the new owner has e-mailed me:
I've just spoken to VOSA, citizens advise, trading standards and AA legal team. From what i've gathered from the solicitors is that i've spoken to they said that i cant really take any course of action against the garage that supplied the MOT because i have no contract with them.
I've been in touch with the garage and they gave me a very negative attitude.
What i've been advised by the solicitors that i've spoke to, the trader or private seller has a responsibility of selling the vehicle to a satisfactory standard. These are determined by the make, age, year, mot, value etc.
Due to spending a considerable amount for the age and year and the 6 week old MOT i was lead to believe that this vehicle was of reasonable quality (not saying showroom quality) but instead i've been told that if anything this vehicle is dangerous to drive and i've not touched it since being back in Bristol. it's not like i bought the car for £800 with a MOT running out at the end of the month and nothing was said on the paper work or listing about the rot problem.
Due to that i've actually been advised to take legal proceedings against you, you seem like a genuine person that doesn't want to cause trouble but i dont really have the money to put the car right and i did spend so much to get a nice example that wouldn't need the work doing. I have to look after myself and i hope you appreciate that.
I'd rather not go through legal proceedings so i'd rather ask you if we could come to some arrangement before things go that far - whether you want to take the car back for a full refund or pay for it towards getting fixed?
I'd like hear your ideas on how we can resolve this issue.
The buyer is a very genuine lad and I know he is not trying it on at all.
I am very transparent and honest when I advertise and sell the cars that I am a trader and want to do things by the book.
I know a lot of traders would tell the buyer to jog on and so forth, this I will not be doing 'but' I do need to know what 'legally' I am required to do.
What is to say for example, if I offer some money towards the repairs that he does not seek for more money as the job goes on....
The seller does know that I am very genuine and in no way knew of any of the issues that have been discovered.
Any advice is much appreciated.
I very recently (2 months ago) began trading part-time in cars with a slight performance edge (retro-classics and similar). I have sold 3 cars in total over a 2 month period.
On Wednesday last week I sold a 1991 Golf GTi MK2 with 160,000 miles. I advertised the car through e-bay but it was sold outside of this. I purchased the car 6 weeks ago with a fresh MOT and it looked in great order.
I replaced the brakes and spent a day or so getting it ready for sale. I did a professional detailed advert description and included many pictures.
The car was sold for just over 2k.
The following day I had an e-mail from the new keeper stating his local mechanic had given the car a once over on his ramp and was shocked at the poor condition of the underside of the car. It would seem that where the rear sub-frame mounts to the floor rust has set in in a bad way. This along with some very poor welding at the front of the car.
The mechanic suggested that the car is dangerous to drive and that the MOT is not legitimate. The mechanic is making out that it would be a huge job to to make the car safe.
Today the new owner has e-mailed me:
I've just spoken to VOSA, citizens advise, trading standards and AA legal team. From what i've gathered from the solicitors is that i've spoken to they said that i cant really take any course of action against the garage that supplied the MOT because i have no contract with them.
I've been in touch with the garage and they gave me a very negative attitude.
What i've been advised by the solicitors that i've spoke to, the trader or private seller has a responsibility of selling the vehicle to a satisfactory standard. These are determined by the make, age, year, mot, value etc.
Due to spending a considerable amount for the age and year and the 6 week old MOT i was lead to believe that this vehicle was of reasonable quality (not saying showroom quality) but instead i've been told that if anything this vehicle is dangerous to drive and i've not touched it since being back in Bristol. it's not like i bought the car for £800 with a MOT running out at the end of the month and nothing was said on the paper work or listing about the rot problem.
Due to that i've actually been advised to take legal proceedings against you, you seem like a genuine person that doesn't want to cause trouble but i dont really have the money to put the car right and i did spend so much to get a nice example that wouldn't need the work doing. I have to look after myself and i hope you appreciate that.
I'd rather not go through legal proceedings so i'd rather ask you if we could come to some arrangement before things go that far - whether you want to take the car back for a full refund or pay for it towards getting fixed?
I'd like hear your ideas on how we can resolve this issue.
The buyer is a very genuine lad and I know he is not trying it on at all.
I am very transparent and honest when I advertise and sell the cars that I am a trader and want to do things by the book.
I know a lot of traders would tell the buyer to jog on and so forth, this I will not be doing 'but' I do need to know what 'legally' I am required to do.
What is to say for example, if I offer some money towards the repairs that he does not seek for more money as the job goes on....
The seller does know that I am very genuine and in no way knew of any of the issues that have been discovered.
Any advice is much appreciated.
Transmat said:
How far away is the car?
If its relatively close I'd offer to pick it up, on the condition that you can speak with the garage who condemned it as unsafe to drive for confirmation. If they say it is, you can't expect the buyer to drive it to you anyway, so you'd have to make your own arrangements to get the car back to you.
100 miles...If its relatively close I'd offer to pick it up, on the condition that you can speak with the garage who condemned it as unsafe to drive for confirmation. If they say it is, you can't expect the buyer to drive it to you anyway, so you'd have to make your own arrangements to get the car back to you.
I have e-mailed the chap back asking firstly to get a second opinion on the required work and secondly how much financial assistance he would be seeking.
What was said above regarding VOSA sounds interesting. I wonder if I could arrange for an inspector to check the car out.
Just had another e-mail from the lad. As I mentioned he is very genuine and all is above board:
VOSA got back in touch with me after the sending you the message.
They'll be retesting the vehicle thursday from an independent garage, the guy who MOT'd it last is given an option to be there while they undertake the test and i will be given the results. The outcome will be either:
- A document saying whether it would pass or fail if it were to go for an MOT
- If i apposed immediate danger on the road the vehicle will be legally taken off the road and not allowed to be driven (this will be in the worst case senario)
I asked my mechanic how much it'd be he didn't want to give me an estimate - what he said is that he could not see how far it rotted but all the bad parts needed to be cut out to be able to make the repair. The most worrying part is the main chassis box frame where it meets the rear axel it's very badly rotten away and this is where the main weight load bearing is on the rear of the vehicle.
to make a full repair the gar needs to be ripped apart all interior out and the lot he said it'll be a very big expensive job and long job :/.
Would be more than happy to get an evaluation from the independent garage where the test will be taken for you.
Regards
mmmmmmmm??
VOSA got back in touch with me after the sending you the message.
They'll be retesting the vehicle thursday from an independent garage, the guy who MOT'd it last is given an option to be there while they undertake the test and i will be given the results. The outcome will be either:
- A document saying whether it would pass or fail if it were to go for an MOT
- If i apposed immediate danger on the road the vehicle will be legally taken off the road and not allowed to be driven (this will be in the worst case senario)
I asked my mechanic how much it'd be he didn't want to give me an estimate - what he said is that he could not see how far it rotted but all the bad parts needed to be cut out to be able to make the repair. The most worrying part is the main chassis box frame where it meets the rear axel it's very badly rotten away and this is where the main weight load bearing is on the rear of the vehicle.
to make a full repair the gar needs to be ripped apart all interior out and the lot he said it'll be a very big expensive job and long job :/.
Would be more than happy to get an evaluation from the independent garage where the test will be taken for you.
Regards
mmmmmmmm??
SMcP114 said:
Simply take the car back.
I have been in this situation many times before and it always works out the same. Do not offer to contribute towards repair etc, just take it back.
You will get another buyer after you at least get a look at the problem.
Did you not have the car on a ramp yourself before you bought it? I wouldn't be touching retro/classic cars without seeing them on a ramp and getting in and around them first.
Having a ramp available when collecting a car from anywhere in the UK is not possible.....I have been in this situation many times before and it always works out the same. Do not offer to contribute towards repair etc, just take it back.
You will get another buyer after you at least get a look at the problem.
Did you not have the car on a ramp yourself before you bought it? I wouldn't be touching retro/classic cars without seeing them on a ramp and getting in and around them first.
I will now have to wait to see what happens on Thursday before taking this further I think.
With VOSA getting involved on Thursday, I do not think I am now in a position to say:
'I will give you a full refund if I have the car back in the next 48 hours, otherwise I will not'.....
Surely it is too late for this?
As pointed out earlier, it is a nuisance that the V5 was sent away yesterday with the new keepers details on.
'I will give you a full refund if I have the car back in the next 48 hours, otherwise I will not'.....
Surely it is too late for this?
As pointed out earlier, it is a nuisance that the V5 was sent away yesterday with the new keepers details on.
Hi
If I were to offer a full refund with the onus being on the car being dropped to me in the next 48 hours in the same condition as it was in when sold, I can understand how this would be fair.
Would it be fair/appropriate though for me to still offer a full refund after VOSA have inspected the car 'if' they deem it un-roadworthy and condemn it from the public highway until it is made safe?
Cheers
If I were to offer a full refund with the onus being on the car being dropped to me in the next 48 hours in the same condition as it was in when sold, I can understand how this would be fair.
Would it be fair/appropriate though for me to still offer a full refund after VOSA have inspected the car 'if' they deem it un-roadworthy and condemn it from the public highway until it is made safe?
Cheers
UPDATE......
The car was inspected by VOSA on Thursday and has been deemed too dangerous to be on the public highway and therefore has been condemned and made illegal to use.
The list of failure items is long but most of which are serious corrosion issues.
I am going to be giving a full refund and arranging for the car to be collected next week.
Ok, I suspect the guy that I purchased the car from to be a trader. I acquired it through e-bay but never met the seller as he dropped the car to my parents place where I collected it from a few days later.
In his e-bay description he stated that he had owned upward of 30 MK2 Golf's and this was one of the best. He was not the registered keeper of the car and his e-bay account is a business account for car spares.
I have been keeping him in the loop over the past week or so and have informed him that unless he offers a full refund on the car I will be going through money claim on-line and subsequently through the small claims court. I will be filling out all of the necessary documents today. I gave hime until 8pm yesterday to reply.
At first he was returning my e-mails and it sounded hopeful that he would co-operate. He has a trailer and even mentioned that he could weld. This would mean that he could take the car back, carry out the required work before getting a new MOT and selling it on.
Unfortunately he has ignored / not replied to my last 3 e-mails of which I will be keeping copies. The 3 e-mails all give him the opportunity to offer a full refund or court proceedings would begin.
I spoke with VOSA on Friday and they informed me that they will be dealing with the MOT center in question. This does not really help me out as I could potentially be a couple of thousand out of pocket.
This whole fiasco is down to the MOT center not carrying out a thorough MOT. Therfore do you think I should be filing a seperate money-claim appeal again the MOT center?
The guy I sold the car to did call the MOT center but he said their attitude was very poor. He was told to go straight to VOSA if he had a problem.
It will cost me circa £30 for each on-line money claim but each party will have court papers drop on their door-step by the end of the week.
The car was inspected by VOSA on Thursday and has been deemed too dangerous to be on the public highway and therefore has been condemned and made illegal to use.
The list of failure items is long but most of which are serious corrosion issues.
I am going to be giving a full refund and arranging for the car to be collected next week.
Ok, I suspect the guy that I purchased the car from to be a trader. I acquired it through e-bay but never met the seller as he dropped the car to my parents place where I collected it from a few days later.
In his e-bay description he stated that he had owned upward of 30 MK2 Golf's and this was one of the best. He was not the registered keeper of the car and his e-bay account is a business account for car spares.
I have been keeping him in the loop over the past week or so and have informed him that unless he offers a full refund on the car I will be going through money claim on-line and subsequently through the small claims court. I will be filling out all of the necessary documents today. I gave hime until 8pm yesterday to reply.
At first he was returning my e-mails and it sounded hopeful that he would co-operate. He has a trailer and even mentioned that he could weld. This would mean that he could take the car back, carry out the required work before getting a new MOT and selling it on.
Unfortunately he has ignored / not replied to my last 3 e-mails of which I will be keeping copies. The 3 e-mails all give him the opportunity to offer a full refund or court proceedings would begin.
I spoke with VOSA on Friday and they informed me that they will be dealing with the MOT center in question. This does not really help me out as I could potentially be a couple of thousand out of pocket.
This whole fiasco is down to the MOT center not carrying out a thorough MOT. Therfore do you think I should be filing a seperate money-claim appeal again the MOT center?
The guy I sold the car to did call the MOT center but he said their attitude was very poor. He was told to go straight to VOSA if he had a problem.
It will cost me circa £30 for each on-line money claim but each party will have court papers drop on their door-step by the end of the week.
PurpleMoonlight said:
Unless you can demonstrate the seller is likely a trader, I fear you are going to struggle to get your money back from him. He will hang his hat on the recent MOT and claim he acted in good faith.
Is he currently selling any other cars? Does he have a feedback history of selling cars? What was his basis for not being recorded as the registered keeper?
HiIs he currently selling any other cars? Does he have a feedback history of selling cars? What was his basis for not being recorded as the registered keeper?
In the last few weeks he has changed his e-bay account to private...
This mean I am unable to check his feedback,
My first question to him when I saw it on e-bay was to enquire whether he was a business seller and he replied that 'it was one of his collection'.....
He went on to say:
I have sold a fair few Mk2's and this is probably the best. My previous sales include a number of very low mileage examples as well...
Why he did not become the registered keeper I do not know. When I get the car back I will be contacting the last owner on the log book to investigate who they sold it to.
Cheers
petergukM500 said:
Bought the car blind off ebay.
Didn't go to owners registered address to collect.
V5 not in his name.
And you believed it was a private sale? Good luck in the motor trade.
Hi PeterDidn't go to owners registered address to collect.
V5 not in his name.
And you believed it was a private sale? Good luck in the motor trade.
I was happy that it may not be from a private individual.
They put 12 months MOT on the vehicle.
What I did not expect was that it would have a Mickey Mouse MOT.
Thank you for your constructive comments.
markmullen said:
Legally yes, but that assumes the OP is going to go legal on it, which, given the value we're discussing is improbable. The description is subjective at best, how do you know the other 29 weren't even worse. If he'd advertised it as needing for nothing, perfect as new condition then fair enough. As it is would you go to court on the basis of as open a statement as that? I sure as hell wouldn't waste money on solicitors on a job like this.
Within the trade it is accepted that if you buy a car through the trade there are no comebacks.
The OP appears to be operating as a trader, whilst expecting the protection he would have as a private buyer.
MarkWithin the trade it is accepted that if you buy a car through the trade there are no comebacks.
The OP appears to be operating as a trader, whilst expecting the protection he would have as a private buyer.
Where did I state that I was looking for the same protection as a private buyer??
I am not sure what court cases you have been involved in but here we are talking about a county court not a crown court!
I do not need a solicitor.
I have been sold a car which has been misrepresented by a trader; whther legally there is a difference between 'trader - trader' is a matter which I will look into.
I will quite happily keep this thread alive throughout the process.
Cheers
markmullen said:
You seem to be wanting the protection of a private buyer in terms of SOGA satisfactory quality. It is a trade sale.
You're right, you can turn up at County Court without a solicitor, whether it is wise is another question.
Where is the misrepresentation? The vague statement about it being the best of 30? Best of luck litigating on that basis. I would suggest you're pissing in the wind. Or are you basing your case on an assumption that as it had an MOT relatively recently that it should be in good condition? Again that isn't an argument I'd waste money on in court.
Your man might have a moody MOT station on hand, and you can no doubt cause at least the MOT station some bother over that, but in real terms you got legged with a cheap car by not doing your homework, don't waste any more time or money than necessary on it. Get it back, get it welded up, punt it on again.
Original advert:You're right, you can turn up at County Court without a solicitor, whether it is wise is another question.
Where is the misrepresentation? The vague statement about it being the best of 30? Best of luck litigating on that basis. I would suggest you're pissing in the wind. Or are you basing your case on an assumption that as it had an MOT relatively recently that it should be in good condition? Again that isn't an argument I'd waste money on in court.
Your man might have a moody MOT station on hand, and you can no doubt cause at least the MOT station some bother over that, but in real terms you got legged with a cheap car by not doing your homework, don't waste any more time or money than necessary on it. Get it back, get it welded up, punt it on again.
Here we have a rare Capri Green metallic 1991 3dr VW Golf GTI 8v. Overall condition is fantastic and unbelieveable for a 22 year old car. The car has receipts for over £3000 for work completed plus stamped service history/VW owners pack and old MOT's. Family owned last 5 years and maintained regardless of cost.
Condition
In stunning condition and a real headturner. I have owned upwards of 30 MK2's including a number of low mileage ex-show cars. This car is up with the best and stunning for a 22 year old car. The bodywork is really superb and all the original factory stickers are reassuringly still present. I'm a perfectionist so have just had the bonnet resprayed due to one or two stonechips. The rest of the bodywork was great already and you will struggle to find another anywhere this level. Would be a great car to take to the VW shows due to rare colour and overall excellent condition. Bumpers and trim have a lovely black sheen and aren't at all faded. Underneath is extremely solid in all the usual problem areas.
Will be sold with full MOT and already taxed so ready to drive away. Has had a recent cambelt, clutch, cylinder head overhaul, heater matrix and mk3 rear brake caliper upgrade so all the usual problematic areas are sorted. Receipts to prove all the work as well. In fact, the car has receipts for everything. The car has being maintained very well by mature owners for the last 10 years. Furthermore, the car comes with a stamped service history booklet upto 100k and the old MOT's dating back to 2002.
Fitted with lovely BBS style alloy wheels. In great condition and still look nice and bright with good tyres.
Interior is the rare original blue/grey 'Ultraviolet' type in excellent condition. Never smoked in and both carpets and seats (original blue/grey 'Ultraviolet' type) show little signs of wear. Rear seat looks like brand new and the ashtray has never being used! Headlining is nice and tight still and all instruments and displays work 100% including the MFA computer. Sunroof opens and shuts fine with no leaks. Fitted with a very nice Panasonic face-off CD player. Parcel shelf uncut.
As you would expect with this level of history and the work completed the car drives faultlessly. Mileage is a genuine 161k which is low for year. Very smooth engine and the transmission is very quiet with a nice smooth gear change (no second gear crunch!). Power Steering works fine and the suspension is still nice and taut. Brakes recently overhauled so again all A1 here (receipts to prove). Engine bay left largely untouched/original (not tarted up) as I like buyers to see the originality (factory wax proofing).
markmullen said:
With knowledge of that then yes, the statement that it is solid underneath is a misrepresentation.
Returning to my earlier point though, for the values involved, how far are you prepared to push it?
I complete money claim on-line for circa £30. By mid-week the court papers will be sent and a date set. This usually ia at Northampton County Court.Returning to my earlier point though, for the values involved, how far are you prepared to push it?
I turn up and put my case forward. I really do not see what I have to loose?
PurpleMoonlight said:
It doesn't work that way.
You will file your claim and pay your £30.
That will then be sent to the the defendant by Northampton County Court.
The defendand will be given time to respond.
If they file a defence then you are asked to submit further claim paperwork and pay another fee.
The case will likely be moved to the defendants local court.
Your hearing is scheduled.
You turn up, likely for the whole day as courts now schedule a dozen or so cases for the same time.
All this will likley take 4 months or so.
I am not in a rush to be honest.You will file your claim and pay your £30.
That will then be sent to the the defendant by Northampton County Court.
The defendand will be given time to respond.
If they file a defence then you are asked to submit further claim paperwork and pay another fee.
The case will likely be moved to the defendants local court.
Your hearing is scheduled.
You turn up, likely for the whole day as courts now schedule a dozen or so cases for the same time.
All this will likley take 4 months or so.
I have the Audi RS2 to prep and sell and a Golf R32
markmullen said:
This.
You're either in the trade, or not.
If you are then you bought the car through the trade, from a trader, and you suck it up. Trade deals are no comeback, those of us who do this for a living understand that.
Hi GuysYou're either in the trade, or not.
If you are then you bought the car through the trade, from a trader, and you suck it up. Trade deals are no comeback, those of us who do this for a living understand that.
Just to put this case to bed as I do not like it when people start threads but never add the outcome.
I fully refunded the car on Monday and had arranged for it to be collected today (Friday).
Since I was sure the guy I had the car from was a trader I decided (against what most of you said here) to open a county court case against him.
I started the process on Monday, he would have received the court papers on Wednesday and by Wednesday afternoon he had fully refunded me in full direct into my bank account.
He is now going to collect the car himself on Friday.
Thanks for all of your input.
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