What's Wrong With American Cops?

[Tannedbaldhead]

Bumped into a video the other day on Youtube which then gave loads of links to US Law Enforcement Officers behaving atrociously towards members of the public. Examples included a Fire Chief subject to a hard arrest for refusing to obey an instruction to move a fire tender that was shielding a paramedic from Highway traffic as he worked on a casualty, a Paramedic who was pinned to his ambulance by the throat (his crime was to leave the back of the ambulance and TELL his ambulance driver to ignore a police officer who was dealing with a minor traffic offence the driver had committed and TELL the officer to deal with the driver at the hospital after they had delivered a patient), beating a schoolkid badly for refusing to tuck in a T Shirt, beat a kid for wearing a T-Shirt that said "The wearing of this T-Shirt is an illegal protest" while standing giggling next to a cop getting videoed by his friend, horrendous beatings, tazings and CS gassings of peaceful protesters and journalists, CS gassing and Tazing of motorists for refusing to sign charge papers, tazing wheel-chair users for "refusing" to stand up and then one has a mass of unarmed individuals shot.

What the hell is wrong over there? And why do the US public put up with it?

You watch a vid of a cop arresting a fire-chief for placing his tender in a position to protect a paramedic and get arrested because a cop told him not to and amongst the comments from the general public on forums is "Well he defied the cop. You just don't do that. He's lucking the cop didn't taze his sorry ass."

I despair.

[Tannedbaldhead]

E30Addict said:

Link?

How many do you want?

[Tannedbaldhead]

E30Addict said:

Link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khBMoZdwEmc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2God7ztoyQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU5fAGOVvEM

[Tannedbaldhead]

TheThing said:

Tannedbaldhead said:

E30Addict said:

Link?

How many do you want?

All the ones you mentioned.

Am working on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tFARijra8I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9llvTQn8v-c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdDLhPwpp4


http://www.progressive.org/mag_mcpeaceshirt

Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Sunday 6th October 13:58

Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Sunday 6th October 13:59

Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Sunday 6th October 14:04

[Tannedbaldhead]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqbmasNeOmM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw06ANLJNAQ&lis...

Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Sunday 6th October 14:14

[Tannedbaldhead]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImI4H3OQvz4

[Tannedbaldhead]

mercfunder said:

A lot of these are lifted from news channels, which would tend to indicate that these are the exceptions rather than the norm.

Not defending bad cops anywhere, but in a society where anybody can carry a gun, sometimes its best to get the first strike in.

I agree with this but at the same time when u find youtube is full of this sort of thing it's hard not to notice there are an awful lot of exceptions happening compared with over here.

As for the whole right to bear arms thing the sooner the Americans give it up the better if a consequence is the way a lot of these cops are behaving.

[Tannedbaldhead]

Something I notice is how much support US Cops get from the community whilst behaving like this. It seems acceptable to beat the odd good guy in case the bad guy skips a beating.

There is a sort of blind respect/worship/support/deference towards anything in a uniform. My favourite example was in the big queues at Heathrow immigration last year. Brits in the queue started getting really gobby and stroppy towards the Border Force personnel manning the passport desks. In response plod marched up and down the queue in twos armed with H&K sub machine guns to keep the peace. The response to this in the USA would be silence and gaze aversion (judging by the number of examples of "don't eyeball me boy! U wanna go to jail" seen on cop shows and youtube eye contact is a crime). The response at Heathrow was the whistling of the Laurel and Hardy theme and a group of lads from Manchester singing "we paid for your 'ats". The Brits found it funny and it passed the time. The BiBs took it in good humour (if they were pissed off they hid it well). Yanks in the queue were getting genuinely upset, a bit frightened and a quite aggressive in their "you really shouldn't do that to the cops".

[Tannedbaldhead]

Elroy Blue said:

People don't video Police doing a good job. You Tube isn't the font of all knowledge.

I agree with both your points.That said, looking at how few similar post are up on Youtube "starring" UK BiBs (I can think of about three which isn't a lot), the fact that on the odd occasion our cops do let themselves down it's still nowhere near as violent as their US counterparts. Even when we take into account the fact the USA has a much larger population and number of Law Enforcers the proportion of these events (also bear in mind most were from news stories not posted directly to Youtube) showing up on youtube with US cops behaving so outrageously it's hard not to see them and not accept there is a problem.

[Tannedbaldhead]

A lot of defenders of the US law enforcers try to pin the blame on disgruntled petty criminals and political activists posted badly edited incidents only showing part of the incident. Have they not noticed that quite a high proportion of these clips are actually news clips and subject to journalistic checks and balances.

Can a defender of American Law Enforcement defend or explain incidents like these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt1L0Kyo3pk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSsGrIf8F0M


And as many police and sheriff's departments are now operating a ex service personnel policy and training like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt1L0Kyo3pk is it any wonder incidents like we are seeing are occurring. (would like to apologise in advance for the clip title).

[Tannedbaldhead]

Elroy Blue said:

I could post up numerous clips of a Police Dept giving up their time and money to provide sporting facilities for disabled kids. They do it every year. But that wouldn't fit with the ACAB ideology of the trolls on here.

I wouldn't call it trolling it's a genuine bewilderment at how confrontational and militaristic American police officers are becoming and also wouldn't call my ideology ACAB. I don't feel this thread reflect badly on UK law enforcers who are a very different kettle of fish. I've accepted that it is both probably a small proportion of US cops taking it to these extremes and that many US cops will make huge contributions to their community. In return I'd like someone with your insight to provide some constructive criticism of what's going on with what seems to be a fair number of incidents and commenting on contributions to this behaviour such as training, culture, psychological pressure etc.

[Tannedbaldhead]

Elroy Blue said:

The obvious one being that they too have to deal with the same Neanderthal, ignorant, stupid people as we often do.

That being the case how come our Police are so much more civilised than their's?

[Tannedbaldhead]

Andehh said:

Everyone jumps on this bandwagon but could this not all simply be down to perspective....? The first dozen posts linking to youtube videos of US Police Brutality are exactly what I am talking about, everyone loves a Bandwagon backed up with popular pinion...

in America compared to ANY other country?


Show me the statistics showing that US cops per 100 or whatever are the worst globally. Lets see how they compare to other countries....

Against most countries (Think Russia, other ex Soviet and Eastern Block States, Arab State, Indian Sub Continent, far east (barring Japan) Africa, South America, basically everywhere else in the world bar Northern Europe US Police fair well. Compared with Northern European Police they suck. Thing is the USA likes to think it's a civilised country so it's civilised northern Europe their officers must be compared with.

[Tannedbaldhead]

Matt Harper said:

Devil2575 said:

That 'Soccer mom' who was tasered was a terrible abuse of power

I saw it a little differently.

She was non-compliant and confrontational. She did what absolutely nobody should do in a traffic stop, until instructed - i.e. get out of the car. The cop is now most definitely in huge potential danger, because he can't use the car's B pillar as a defensive barrier. Worse, she disobeys his request to get back in the car - he's now maybe thinking, "Is she about to pull a gun on me?"

Then when he gets assertive - she disobeys him again - is she now going to flee - with children in the car?

It's unfortunate that this woman ended-up 'riding the lightning' - but it was very much a self induced escalation, where she definitely put the cop 1) on guard (demanding to see "the video" 2) in danger (by exiting the vehicle). If she had been compliant and reasonable, instead of being belligerent and confrontational, she'd have probably got away with a courtesy notice.

Interesting to hear in American perspective. I heard this in comments on the clip showing the Fire Chief being arrested. Many members of the American public voicing support for the police officer were incredulous that the arrest was considered as wrongful. Their attitude was regardless of whether the Fier Chief was right or wrong from a health and safety or common sense perspective if you go nose to nose with a cop and openly defy him you should get arrested, arrested hard and go to jail.

[Tannedbaldhead]

Matt Harper said:

Bigends said:

Bloody hell - it was a traffic stop on a woman - not a raid on some crack den. 'Self induced escalation??? - Jesus!! Why treat everyone as if theyre going to murder you - can you not treat each contact on its on merits?

Oh, that's right - silly me. It's not possible for a belligerent, confrontational, argumentative woman to be armed with a handgun - it'd never happen. It's never happened.

He treated that contact precisely on it's merits. She got out of the car and confronted him - then did not get back into the car when he asked her to. What's his next move? Wait til she pulls her pink-handled 38 special and then 'reason with her'?

I don't think you fully understand some of the risk involved in this job.

My daughter trained with a lovely guy called Brandon Coates - ex-Marine - great guy. He did a traffic stop on OBT in Orlando FL two years ago to inform a driver that his back lights weren't working. As he approached the car, the front passenger got out of the car and assassinated Brandon on the sidewalk - jumped back in the car and they then sped off.

Jesus! It's a traffic stop - not a raid on a crack den. That is the reality. So when faced with people who do not comply and who behave in ways that potentially put the cop at risk of death - they do tend to be just a little cautious. Make sense?

I read this and all I can say is thank god we don't have guns here.

[Tannedbaldhead]

Tannedbaldhead said:

Matt Harper said:

Devil2575 said:

That 'Soccer mom' who was tasered was a terrible abuse of power

I saw it a little differently.

She was non-compliant and confrontational. She did what absolutely nobody should do in a traffic stop, until instructed - i.e. get out of the car. The cop is now most definitely in huge potential danger, because he can't use the car's B pillar as a defensive barrier. Worse, she disobeys his request to get back in the car - he's now maybe thinking, "Is she about to pull a gun on me?"

Then when he gets assertive - she disobeys him again - is she now going to flee - with children in the car?

It's unfortunate that this woman ended-up 'riding the lightning' - but it was very much a self induced escalation, where she definitely put the cop 1) on guard (demanding to see "the video" 2) in danger (by exiting the vehicle). If she had been compliant and reasonable, instead of being belligerent and confrontational, she'd have probably got away with a courtesy notice.

Interesting to hear in American perspective. I heard this in comments on the clip showing the Fire Chief being arrested. Many members of the American public voicing support for the police officer were incredulous that the arrest was considered as wrongful. Their attitude was regardless of whether the Fier Chief was right or wrong from a health and safety or common sense perspective if you go nose to nose with a cop and openly defy him you should get arrested, arrested hard and go to jail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khBMoZdwEmc


I'm putting this back out as the question wasn't addressed

[Tannedbaldhead]

Elroy Blue said:

Tannedbaldhead said:

I read this and all I can say is thank god we don't have guns here.

We have plenty of guns here. It's just that most of them are in the hands of the criminals.

Thank God for that too. The saving grace with crims is they tend to shoot each other rather than members of the general public (ask any Operation Trident detective). Arm good old law abiding citizens such as Michael Ryan, Thomas Hamilton or Derrick Bird and things from an innocent bystander's perspective start to look very bleak indeed.

[Tannedbaldhead]

streaky said:

As said above, those with nothing to fear from the police do not fear them. Those that do, do. Isn't that how it should be?

This guy and his wife don't sound like criminals but the way this interaction ends up it sounds like law abiding citizens should be scared as hell from US Law Enforcement Officers and Border Control Officers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i5sDOdoFqg

[Tannedbaldhead]

Snowboy said:

r?


Had he pandered to her then she would have been the one with the power.

I think this is what it is all about. As often as not the situations shown on the videos are about Police Officers going miles too far whilst trying to dominate or control a situation.

Let's see, kid gets thumped for not tucking in his shirt tail when ordered to do so, cameraman or reporter get thumped for refusing to stop filming, paramedic gets pinned to his ambulance by the throat because he countermands a police instruction to his driver and commands this driver to take the patient to hospital, fire chief is handcuffed and spread over a car bonnet for defying a police instruction to move a fire tender, Canadian gets arrested and told "you're gonna jail" for replying to a command "don't you shake you're head at me" with "what ya gonna do? Shoot me for shaking my head?" anyone see a pattern?

I've mountain biked in the USA for years. I used to visit ski resorts in the summer when it was cheap. I've seen cops in action and it's scary. What they're bad for is ramping up the confrontation way out of proportion to the level of confrontation coming from the member of the public they are dealing with and way out of proportion to the levels of threat they provide and as often as not the level of the offence committed.

It goes like this. Cop stops young professional, well spoken, well educated Brits mountain biking in Colorado. They've come down a mountain road like bullets from a gun on carbon fibre pedal cycles.
The Cop starts "do you know how fast you came down that hill?".
One smart-Alec looks down, sweeps an open hand across his handlebars and replies "no speedo".
Next thing his blue hands are in wrist breakingly tight handcuffs. "You're not so funny now funny-boy. Come here and smart-mouth us and you go to jail". Apparently this one comment constitutes "failure to comply" "insulting a police officer" and "disorderly conduct".
The rest of the group are told "One word. One word, and you all go to jail"
Members of the group are warned for facial expressions, sighing and giving eye contact. The officers use expressions like "piss me off and I'll put you in a world of hurt" and if I have to arrest you "I will put you down hard," "you wont believe how dangerous the situation you are in right now" and "you make sure you decide right coz here, you mess up and you go to jail for a long time".

Is anyone going to say this sort of interaction is justifiable on some level. Are slightly built, lycra clad Brit tourists such a threat they need to be subjected to this level of threat? I don't think so. What's more if that's how they treat the well off and innocent how do they treat the young, poor and defiant. I have a feeling it will be grim.

[Tannedbaldhead]

I notice many of the posters are getting overly hung up on whether or not "Soccer Mum's" tasering was justifiable or not. What would be more interesting would be Matt and Elroy's take on the treatment of the Paramedic, Fire Chief and Canadian tourist. Is the USA so different from the UK that we just don't get how unacceptable it is to defy a cop under any circumstances? That said, were the cops right to treat them the way they did? Would a cop be justified in going into "You wanna go to jail boy?" mode when a cyclist points out his bike hasn't a speedo when the cop asks "you know how fast you were going?".

Am asking this regularly and no-one is answering