You Must Never Give BIBs a Bollocking In Public Ever
Discussion
An operative was removing an asbestos insulating board infill panel above an internal doorframe in a council house between tenancies. The property was empty and protected by Sitex security window shutters and doors. He was wearing a white hooded "CSI" suit and respirator and had the area he was working lined with heavy gauge polythene. At the front door he placed a "Do Not Enter. Asbestos" sign
A neighbour heard noises from the empty property and phoned the Police. Two officers were dispatched and walked into the building inspite of the warning signs. In the hallway they found themselves facing the asbestos stripper, up a ladder, in the process of removing the AIB panel, masked and suited up.
The stripper shouted at the Police "OUT NOW!" . Instead of leaving the Police initially stood their ground. The stripper then shouted "Get to f
k out you fking idiots this place is full of asbestos". The Officers retreated to the front door. At the front door they forcefully commanded the Asbestos stripper to come out of the building immediately. He replied that he'd have to decontaminate himself (doesn't take that long but he made a meal of it). The reason he did that was so he could phone his supervisor and have him on site while plod dealt with him.
When he got outside plod were giving his supervisor a hard and fairly intimidating talk on not interfering while they dealt with an offence. It was pretty obvious they were very pissed off that he had turned up. Next the Asbestos stripper got it with both barrels. Apparently BIBs must NEVER be spoken to the way he spoke to them and he was very close to getting himself into serious trouble. At this point the supervisor piped up "this man is trained to shout at anyone who enters his enclosure and if you walk past a danger asbestos sign you deserve to be called fking idiots". For his trouble he was huckled into the back of the Police car and again told what he just did was obstructing Police officers and could, along with his comments, get himself into serious trouble along with his colleague.
Couple or so questions for BIBs or ex BIBs. Why? Why not just walk away? Why the scary assed warning ste? The guys were just doing their jobs. And could they really have got into trouble given the full circumstances or would senior officers and or the PF laugh at the constables for being so petty had they tried to take the matter further?
A neighbour heard noises from the empty property and phoned the Police. Two officers were dispatched and walked into the building inspite of the warning signs. In the hallway they found themselves facing the asbestos stripper, up a ladder, in the process of removing the AIB panel, masked and suited up.
The stripper shouted at the Police "OUT NOW!" . Instead of leaving the Police initially stood their ground. The stripper then shouted "Get to f
k out you fking idiots this place is full of asbestos". The Officers retreated to the front door. At the front door they forcefully commanded the Asbestos stripper to come out of the building immediately. He replied that he'd have to decontaminate himself (doesn't take that long but he made a meal of it). The reason he did that was so he could phone his supervisor and have him on site while plod dealt with him.When he got outside plod were giving his supervisor a hard and fairly intimidating talk on not interfering while they dealt with an offence. It was pretty obvious they were very pissed off that he had turned up. Next the Asbestos stripper got it with both barrels. Apparently BIBs must NEVER be spoken to the way he spoke to them and he was very close to getting himself into serious trouble. At this point the supervisor piped up "this man is trained to shout at anyone who enters his enclosure and if you walk past a danger asbestos sign you deserve to be called f
king idiots". For his trouble he was huckled into the back of the Police car and again told what he just did was obstructing Police officers and could, along with his comments, get himself into serious trouble along with his colleague.Couple or so questions for BIBs or ex BIBs. Why? Why not just walk away? Why the scary assed warning s
te? The guys were just doing their jobs. And could they really have got into trouble given the full circumstances or would senior officers and or the PF laugh at the constables for being so petty had they tried to take the matter further? aw51 121565 said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
A neighbour heard noises from the empty property and phoned the Police.
The neighbour hadn't noticed the polythene cladding around the place, the operatives looking like extras from the last 30 minutes of ET or anything else unusual (like a big lorry with a decontamination unit/area parked out front, for example) then? And the police officer(s) hadn't clocked this upon arrival either?
(Sub)contractor could have dealt with it better (more politely, as reported, but he/she had an important point to make!) - but then the police should also have noticed the polythene cladding and "warning - asbestos!" notices at their point of entry to the building as a starter for ten and clocked a real H&S Issue then withdrawn
.Story does not hang true, to be frank
; asbestos removal is serious st nowadays, and people - anyone - would be aware of the issue and risks before entering the site...Man was working on one end of a long hallway on the door between the hall and living room, Police walked in the front door. On seeing someone enter the building he immediately and vociferously instructed the person to leave as he was trained to do so. When the Police officer hesitated he repeated the instruction with more force and a greater sense of urgency. Had the officer gone all the way through the threshold you'd have been looking at an HSE notifiable exposure, full investigation, questions asked about sufficiency of signing and whether the operative should have secured the area by locking the door. Under those circumstances you aren't polite when you don't want someone to enter a room.
Mk3Spitfire said:
What's refreshing about this thread is the evidence of a new anti police generation (also with no/little knowledge/experience) coming through. The likes of eclassy for example.
More two it than that. There's a generation who are quite pro Police and are happy when plod are off chasing what they consider to be proper criminals. Problem is that if they find themselves in conflict with police officers when they feel they have done nothing wrong and are filled with righteous indignation they stand ground and are far from being as deferential as generations before. I count myself in this group. When plod is on someone naughty's case I'm happy. When plod is on my case when I have been naughty I am head down, shame faced and full of remorse and a pleasure to deal with. If however plod's giving me a hard time and I'm innocent I can be pretty defiant and awkward.Cat said:
vescaegg said:
This.
The coppers in question obviously didnt know how serious notifiable (to the HSE) absestos is so probably cant be blamed fully for reacting the way they did at being shouted at
But, the guy doing the work clearly did know how serious it is and I would have probably reacted in exactly the same way.
Having stern words with the supervisor and even putting him in the police car after (presumably) being told how serious it is, was idiotic though. Id guess that 95% of people know asbestos is very bad stuff, and Asbestos Insulation Board is some of the worst stuff you can come across. You are not even allowed to touch it without notifying the HSE 14 days before and doing a mountain of paperwork first.
The HSE are serious serious people you really dont want to ever want to do something to get on the wrong side of!
A question for you - if the risk posed by the work being carried out was so serious that the reaction was justified, why was the only precaution to prevent someone entering the area a laminated A4 card propped against the door? Surely if the threat is so severe and immediate that it warrants shouting obscenities at someone to get out rather than the few extra seconds required to ask them to leave then the surrounding area should be secured to prevent any chance of someone being exposed. The coppers in question obviously didnt know how serious notifiable (to the HSE) absestos is so probably cant be blamed fully for reacting the way they did at being shouted at
But, the guy doing the work clearly did know how serious it is and I would have probably reacted in exactly the same way.
Having stern words with the supervisor and even putting him in the police car after (presumably) being told how serious it is, was idiotic though. Id guess that 95% of people know asbestos is very bad stuff, and Asbestos Insulation Board is some of the worst stuff you can come across. You are not even allowed to touch it without notifying the HSE 14 days before and doing a mountain of paperwork first.
The HSE are serious serious people you really dont want to ever want to do something to get on the wrong side of!
Cat
singlecoil said:
Anyone here actually believe the OP's story? I know the anti-police brigade will, or at least pretend to, but what about the more balanced of the posters?
Hmmmm! I believe him. Look at the OP's posting record, he's not one of these guys who dwells on SP&theL (didn't receive a mention in the "most annoying poster on SP&L" thread so under everyone's radar and not a regular with an anti BIB agenda. In fact last time he started a thread in this section of PH it was this http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
90 to 120 days ago.
Then again he did get bitten by a Police dog. Maybe he's bitter.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
55palfers said:
Greendubber said:
Yep, why not have another member of staff present if its so dangerous?
I know when we had asbestos taken out of the police station the place looked like something out of E.T with barriers all over the place.
It often depends on the type of asbestos being removed.I know when we had asbestos taken out of the police station the place looked like something out of E.T with barriers all over the place.
Greendubber said:
I'd not be particularly happy at being sworn at either.
I also have a feeling that on duty and in uniform you wouldn't take kindly to being given instruction delivered with a sense of urgency and with a raised voice regardless of whether the vocabulary has an "f" in it or not. Use a bit of empathy with the officers in question. Like you they aren't fully aware of asbestos legislation. Like you they may have assumed every asbestos removal required a full enclosure, negative air pressure, air monitoring and a supervisor on the enclosure entry. In reality, with the work being classed as "short and non continuous" works, it was the case that the legislation governing licencing requirement and informing the HSE was less stringent. It was also the case the health and safety measures taken would be at a much lower level.
Now these good coppers see the sign and being a good coppers decides not to take things at face value and decide to investigate.
They walk in. They see a man in a mask and a CSI suit removing a panel above a dismantled door frame at the far end of the hall. The asbestos stripper does not do what crooks normally do (leg it) but shouts at the top of his voice for the officers to "get out". Now, you're a Police officer, honestly, a member of the public shouting at you? giving firm instruction? you don't obey automatically the way we civies do, do you? As such instead of backing out immediately they momentarily stand his ground. The force, language and the demeanor of the man telling him to get out the 2nd time along with his PPE will have convinced the officer "this isn't a good place to be" and common sense kicks in.
What happened there was police officers were yelled at, sworn at, given instruction which due to the circumstances they decided to comply with pretty damn quick. Tell me, how would a policeman feel thereafter? A proportion would feel a need to re-establish their authority. Buggerlugs in his white suit and mask had the upper hand in a roomful of assy fibre. It's no wonder when the BIBs shouted at him to come out he heard something in the tone of said command that had him think "I'd like my boss here for this".
Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Friday 28th March 17:16
Cat said:
Scuffers said:
Greendubber said:
No seals were broken in the OP, if its that dangerous I suggest something more appropriate than the measures in place should have been used.
so just how did they get in the house then?Cat
Edited by Cat on Friday 28th March 17:23
carinaman said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
Hence me being informed and told to ensure everyone working under my instruction locks the doors of void properties whilst working in them.
Are they allowed to work solo? Is that allowed under HSE regulations?If they're locked in and they fall off of their ladder or have an unexpected medical episode how are those that may want to check on them or come to their aid get in?
Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Friday 28th March 18:12
Cat said:
[ The poor working practice of the workman meant that people were potentially exposed to a hazardous material.
Cat
The workman was removing an AIB infill panel above an internal door. The panel would have measured 90cm by 30cm. The panel was painted both sides and would probably have been in good condition. By dismantling the doorframe the panel would have been removed intact. As such the operative would be required to lay down a 500 gauge poly dustsheet under the working area and wet down the AIB panel as the work commenced. He would be required to wear a T5 suit and a P2 filtered half mask. He would be required to ensure the area he was working was clear of others before commencing work and properly sign any access points to the working area. If someone was to enter the area they must be warned to leave immediately. Man did what he had to do.Cat
carinaman said:
Tannedbaldhead, 'What do you do when you arrive at a site and you spot X.Y,Z?' was a question posed at a job interview for a large govt. employer in relation to duty of care.
If x,y or Z was a "Danger Asbestos" sign my duty of care to myself would require me not to enter.On the subject of duties of care I can see a huge conflict in the duty of care to one's self as set by HASWA 1974 and the duty of care to others with regards to locking yourself in a void house. I huge issues with regards to locking myself in a house. By leaving the door unlocked but signed as a dangerous area and audibly warning anyone who entered I recon I would have reasonably discharged my duties of care to both.
Cat said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
The workman was removing an AIB infill panel above an internal door. The panel would have measured 90cm by 30cm. The panel was painted both sides and would probably have been in good condition. By dismantling the doorframe the panel would have been removed intact. As such the operative would be required to lay down a 500 gauge poly dustsheet under the working area and wet down the AIB panel as the work commenced. He would be required to wear a T5 suit and a P2 filtered half mask. He would be required to ensure the area he was working was clear of others before commencing work and properly sign any access points to the working area. If someone was to enter the area they must be warned to leave immediately. Man did what he had to do.
Maybe it's just me but if the risk was such that a laminated A4 sheet propped against the door is sufficient warning then the shouting obscenities at someone to get out seems over the top. If the risk was such that the shouts to get out were necessary (as opposed to the few extra seconds it would take to explain without shouting and swearing) then the steps taken to prevent people entering were insufficient. Either way I see don't see that the Police were at fault.
Cat
king idiot". I think plod should have sucked that one up and took it on the chin.10 Pence Short said:
Is it possibly a case of over zealous workman meets over zealous officers?
I'm sure Police officers are used to industrial language, though perhaps less so being instructed what to do by MoP.
This is what I think it was all about. Plod get sworn at regularly, especially by drunks. They normally give, at least, a couple of warnings before the culprit is in the back of a van. In this case they were told in no uncertain terms what to do and given the circumstances had to do it. My suspicion is they didn't like it. They lost control, they lost authority. They felt a need to establish that we are the boss of you. We have the power. I'm sure Police officers are used to industrial language, though perhaps less so being instructed what to do by MoP.
From my own personal experience plod are usually great guys to deal with. When I've been naughty they have been civilised and professional dealing with me. Where they turn nasty is the odd occasion where they lose face or authority, even with innocents. This story is recounted third hand but if you want some "from the horses mouth" experience I can recount thee or four personal examples I have witnessed 1st hand.
Cat said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
He didn't JUST shout obscenities. He first shouted for the to get out now. The police didn't leave when told. That to the operative is stupid so he swore. I work in building sites. If you do something dangerous or stupid (hard to do one without another) you'll get called a "fking idiot". I think plod should have sucked that one up and took it on the chin.
We're clearly not going to agree but if the situation was so dangerous and the threat so immediate that the workman's reaction was appropriate and necessay then I don't believe that an A4 sheet propped against a door (which could blow/fall over/be removed) is sufficient precaution to prevent access to the area. king idiot". I think plod should have sucked that one up and took it on the chin.Cat
paintman said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
Hence me being informed and told to ensure everyone working under my instruction locks the doors of void properties whilst working in them.
I note that you have also said this had been brought to your attention by a client.I posted a long time ago that it appeared that the world & his wife could have wandered into this premises.
Is it the case that the workman involved in this incident was under your supervision/control & you've had a b
king from the client?Meetings will take place and method statements will be amended. I want "crime-scene" yellow "Danger Asbestos tape across the door in addition to the A4 "Do Not Enter" sign. Will that be enough? Who knows. Reminds me of a time someone sent an email saying "loft hatches must always be opened with two hands" and an operative asked "how do we do that when we have to keep three points of contact with the ladder at all times".
Cat said:
If there had been a warning sign there I wouldn't have ignored it and entered the area.
Cat
Is that not tacit admission the officers in question were in the wrong to an extent?Cat
Also can you accept at least that the door wasn't locked out of the negligence of the operative in question but due to him working under instruction where his employer has to balance a conflict of health safety duties of care to their employee and others and balance said conflict in a manner that is considered reasonable in the eyes of the law.
Mk3Spitfire said:
Rovinghawk said:
You never do.
I can only assume you have suffered a great hardship at the hands of the Police in the past to have so much pent up anger. Maybe you should start a thread relating to your negative experience that sparked your hatred and people could talk it through with you. You might feel better.A 16 year old Tannedbaldhead (though hairyheaded at the time)sitting in a bandstand in a park with some mates. Two Police officers appear and have a pop about us drinking. Now kids did drink there but none of the guys I was with that particular night were drinkers. There was no drink, There was no smell of drink on our breaths yet the Police said we were drinking and drunk. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that the most awkward case is not the crook but the innocent fuelled with righteous indignation. Inspite of being middle class, well educated, well spoken kids rather than a crowd of hoods we kicked off, got gobby and if you think drink fuelled yoofs are hard work you should see them run on injustice.
I knew I couldn't get away with defiance, aggression or foul language but got quite smart mouthed. Lots of where's the drink? where's the empty cans and bottles? whose breath smells of alcohol? what none? that's cause you're bare faced liers and you KNOW we haven't been drinking. Result? frogmarched in an armlock to the back of a sky blue Escort 1.1 popular with white doors and a wee blue light on the roof, flung in the back and was told the following. "Right, first if we say you're drunk you're f
king drunk (this shocked me, at that age I was an innocent I didn't realise police swore at the public) if we say anything it's true. You're in this car and if we say you started to shout, swear, resist, assault us, damage the car you'll have done it. You wont stand a chance in court. You'd be convicted and you're life will be ruined. That's what will happen if you get smart and try to make police look bad in front of your mates. At that time my family was friendly with a few officers who I used to help train their dogs (ie run for my life padded up and they set them on me). My Dad told the officers what had happened and found they closed ranks hard. Either I was lying coz Police would never threaten someone with fitting them up, that I must have been abusive and/or threatening or I was probably drunk. They knew me, they knew my family and they know their colleagues and probably know what they are capable of and yet not one broke ranks and said anything along the lines of "yeah that guy's a particularly nasty b
d of a man". I lost a lot of faith that night. Inspite of this I'm a lot more balanced than a lot of guys on SP&L. I don't dwell round here and I don't relentlessly knock BIBs. I'm a realist and am the first to admit there's a lot of good guys in the force (guy who held my head steady after a hard motor bike crash and reassured, comforted, and encouraged me to stay conscious as I lay in the road with spinal and head injuries springs to mind as the best of a very good lot). Truth of the matter is when the police are good they are very very good but when they're bad they're horrid. A proportion of you are out and out b
ds and the rest of you for some reason feel duty bound to back them up. Sad thing is you do it here exactly the same way, "the story is an out and out lie", pick away at every detail , discredit the critic, "he has an axe to grind, even if it is the truth he doesn't know the full context" etc etc ......you know what you do. What you never seem to say though (yet I'll bet you think it) is say something along the lines of "that's the sort of thing my old c*** of a sergeant would do when I was stationed in *******. From what I've learned tonight there are a crowd on here who have got it in for the police and a crowd who default defend. Those who do defend should be a bit more honest at times and accept there is at times bad apples, (strange thing is these b
ds can be heros and angels at times) and there are guys closing ranks and covering. For once instead of looking at what a critic is saying and storming into the validity of the story teller or justifying the actions of the officer in question why not say. "Yup that was out of order"?Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Saturday 29th March 00:21
Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Saturday 29th March 00:23
Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Saturday 29th March 00:27
Mk3Spitfire said:
about why you may have doubts about the integrity of the police force. Hawk has failed to give any justification.
Make that doubts about individuals within. To be fare it's the same in all professions I work in construction which has it's fair share of crooks, lazy buggers, useless b
ds, bullstters and arrogant, blustering, difficult to deal with, powerfully built managing directors. That said, most of us are good guys but, even then, us good guys have our bad days. I sell my soul every contract I sign with construction security provider.The problem with the Police is we expect more. I liken the Police to the Catholic Church. I read statistics that showed the proportion of sex offending priests from the Catholic church wasn't that much worse than any other religion or secular orginisation. Think Bernardos and other child care charities, Scoutmasters, Social Work Departments, the Police, teachers etc. The great sin of the church was not so much the level of abuse but the systemic cover ups to protect individuals not primarily to protect said individuals but to protect the body of the church. Then there is the acute feeling of betrayal. We trusted priest and our expectation of their morals and standards behaviour was far higher than those of society in general. In addition we placed them in society where if they did go astray their ability to do damage to individuals and get away with it was way above the average layman. As such our sense of betrayal and abhorance when some were found to be abusers of children was far higher than if it was a crowd of creepy looking blokes in dirty macs.
The Police, like priests, are expected to be better. They are also in a position to do much more damage to an individual than an average layman. They are an organisation with a rep for protecting individual to protect the reputation of the Force (though I accept that's changing) They're no worse proportionally than any other profession but that's not good enough. When that proportion of the police fail morally and in standards of behaviour society reacts and reacts much more so than when any other profession lets us down. That's why I'm yipping today about a poor assy surveyor who got a b
king he didn't deserve and that I got told I could end up in the pokey for being to strident in my denial of being drunk when I was sober. Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff