Dual liner speed limit grey area
Discussion
Driving my Vito dual liner the other day on the A30 headed towards Cornwall, I had the cruse set at about 73mph and noticed two police cars slowly catching, one passed, no problem, I caught up with a lorry and pulled out to overtake, the second car then put his blues on, thinking he's on an emergency call I accelerated passed the lorry and pulled in. The car then switched off his lights and crused passed with the passanger waving six fingers at me(dispite the fact I was in Cornwall, he had to use two hands 
) I gave him seven and carried on at the same speed.
So I set off to find the info, was it a myth that although I have five seats, its still a van and therefore restricted to 60mph on a dual carriageway (a law that to me has no logic) and this is what I found after some digging and is an answer from someone else's question:
Where there are windows, seats and seat belts behind the driver’s seat our understanding is that the enforcement authorities will assume that the vehicle is primarily used for carrying passengers rather than goods. A passenger vehicle with no more than 8 passenger seats can travel at the same speed as a car.
My van carries my family and also some tools, I use it for work and pleasure. I could use a car but prefer the flexibility, when needed, of a van. Has anyone a better answer???
) I gave him seven and carried on at the same speed. So I set off to find the info, was it a myth that although I have five seats, its still a van and therefore restricted to 60mph on a dual carriageway (a law that to me has no logic) and this is what I found after some digging and is an answer from someone else's question:
Where there are windows, seats and seat belts behind the driver’s seat our understanding is that the enforcement authorities will assume that the vehicle is primarily used for carrying passengers rather than goods. A passenger vehicle with no more than 8 passenger seats can travel at the same speed as a car.
My van carries my family and also some tools, I use it for work and pleasure. I could use a car but prefer the flexibility, when needed, of a van. Has anyone a better answer???
Found the flashing lights abit ott and the sort of thing that doesn't do them any favours (small man syndrome). A simple toot of the horn as passing and some finger waving would've been suffice. I was a bit irritated so felt a response was required. It seems there is no simple answer.............
jbsportstech said:
I would of waited till the car passed, they might of been in convoy for a reason which is probably why the op was not pulled, better things to do.
It never amazes how on one thread you can be burnt to the stake for mentioning someone is foreign and how someone can come on here and suggest the cornish/devon people are in someway and would normally have 6 finger plus on each hand!.
I could suggest that my journey had more importance and would've happily shown the rear seats, windows, and probebly ask "why the flashing lights??" but this was not really the point.It never amazes how on one thread you can be burnt to the stake for mentioning someone is foreign and how someone can come on here and suggest the cornish/devon people are in someway and would normally have 6 finger plus on each hand!.
Edited by jbsportstech on Thursday 3rd July 14:35
FiF thank's for the info, now bookmarked for future reference!!!
And yes I'm Devonian, born and bred and there's a few six finger one eye-browers amongst us
but more in Cornwall 
Would you believe it, I've been caught speeding for a goods vehicle @ 59mph on a 60mph road!!!! No answer from the hard working Conditional Offer Unit (whatever the hell that means!!) working between 10am and 12am then 1pm to 3pm 5 days a week!!!! But you cant get hold of them, mental, driving me mad!!!!!!!
Anyone got the direct number for Avon and Somerset police!!!
Anyone got the direct number for Avon and Somerset police!!!
TooMany2cvs said:
wessexrfc said:
Would you believe it, I've been caught speeding for a goods vehicle @ 59mph on a 60mph road!!!!
Yes, I would. Was it a goods vehicle with a 50mph limit on an NSL single carriageway?FiF said:
jbsportstech said:
FiF said:
Sigh
Plod was not correct.
It's got nothing to do with car derived vans. Repeat nothing.
The dualiner is a dual purpose vehicle with ulw <2040 kgs and therefore limits are as posted earlier; 60, 70, 70.
Have you got some concrete to back that up with> Can you reference your source.Plod was not correct.
It's got nothing to do with car derived vans. Repeat nothing.
The dualiner is a dual purpose vehicle with ulw <2040 kgs and therefore limits are as posted earlier; 60, 70, 70.
I bet more than one person has been caught and ticketed in this situation. I would not like to go to court with the defence smeone on piston heads said so!
General speed limit since 1978 has been Mway 70, DC 70, SC 60. This comes from the 70 Miles Per Hour, 60 Miles Per Hour and 50 Miles Per Hour (Temporary Speed Limit) (Continuation) Order 1978 (SI 1978/1548), made under section 88 of the 1984 Road Traffic Regulation Act. Secretary of State Bill Rodgers who amended it to make dual carriageways back to 70 mph and single carriageways from 50 to 60mph.
Schedule 6 of RTRA restricts speed limits for certain classes of vehicle as follows.:-
Schedule 6 RTRA said:
Schedule 6 Item 1 A passenger vehicle, motor caravan or dual-purpose vehicle not drawing a trailer being a vehicle with an unladen weight exceeding 3•05 tonnes or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers:
(i) if not exceeding 12 metres in overall length 70 60 50
So the crux of the matter regarding the Dualiner is, does it meet the criteria for a dual purpose vehicle as outlined above, if it does then it’s the 70, 60,50 limits , i.e. same as van limits, if not then the general limits apply MW 70, DC 70, SC 60.(i) if not exceeding 12 metres in overall length 70 60 50
Schedule 6 defines a dual purpose vehicle in a footnote.
footnote to schedule 6 said:
2
In this Schedule—
[F4 “agricultural motor vehicle” ] “articulated vehicle”, “dual-purpose vehicle”, “industrial tractor”, “passenger vehicle”, “pneumatic tyre”, “track-laying”, “wheel” and “works truck” have the same meanings as are respectively given to those expressions in Regulation 3(1) of the M3 Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1978;
See construction and use regs for definition of DPV.In this Schedule—
[F4 “agricultural motor vehicle” ] “articulated vehicle”, “dual-purpose vehicle”, “industrial tractor”, “passenger vehicle”, “pneumatic tyre”, “track-laying”, “wheel” and “works truck” have the same meanings as are respectively given to those expressions in Regulation 3(1) of the M3 Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1978;
Constr and Use regs said:
dual-purpose vehicle
a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which either—
(i)is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by the appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all the wheels of the vehicle; or
(ii)satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely—
(a)the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;
(b)the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver's seat must—
(i)be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and
(ii)be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and
(c)the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.
So let’s turn to the specification sheet for the Dualiner. linka vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which either—
(i)is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by the appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all the wheels of the vehicle; or
(ii)satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely—
(a)the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;
(b)the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver's seat must—
(i)be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and
(ii)be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and
(c)the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.
Pages 12 and 32 – 35 refer.
Here I upload the screen grabs to show that it clearly meets all the DPV criteria.
So to summarise.
Less than 2040 ulw in all configurations.
Solid roof
Row of two or more seats behind the driver
Windows of suitable area
Sufficient load space length behind the rearmost seats.
Therefore, in conclusion, the Vito Dualiner is a dual purpose vehicle, and has an unladen weight not in excess of 3.05 tonnes, not adapted to carry more than 8 passenger and is not more than 12 metres overall length, therefore the restriction in Schedule 6 item 1 does not apply, therefore general speed limits do apply.
Note- The discrepancy between the 2040 kgs in C&U and the 3050kgs in RTRA causes people to be confused. My interpretation is that having an ulw above 2040 the vehicle ceases to be a dpv and becomes a goods vehicle.
I rest my case.
Looks like a dying cause due to description on the V5 document describing it as a "light goods" and "panel van" despite this van having glass panels all-round as you would with a minibus and not metal as you would with a normal panel van. Have replied back to them saying this and that it is a multi-purpose vehicle and sending photos of the glass and seats behind the drivers seat, not looking too hopeful 
.
. This is what drives me mad, I have a DPV and some tools, I have a better brake system than a transit and apparently can only do fifty. A transit van full of children can do sixty!!!! Could someone point me in the direction of some logic please!!
They've just announced that they are increasing the max speed for lorrys on nsl roads to fifty, so thats ok as they have great braking distances!!! Anyone else smell a money making rat here???
They've just announced that they are increasing the max speed for lorrys on nsl roads to fifty, so thats ok as they have great braking distances!!! Anyone else smell a money making rat here???
Struggling!!!:
As stated in my previous email the vehicle is registered with the DVLA as a lights goods vehicle therefore if you wish to dispute this please contact the DVLA directly as the notice still stands.
Kind Regards
Laura Ferris
Admin Team Leader
Speed Enforcement Unit
Criminal Justice Department
To help muddy the water, here is a helpful link given by Laura, of the aptly named department
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
There at the top is "dual purpose vehicle" Can anyone explain/describe what a "dual purpose" vehicle is, if not a car/van that can carry people and i.e. tools/bike/kitchen sink at the same time???!!! Has anyone change the description on the V5 with the DVLA and does this change the taxation of the vehicle, I thinking, making this a car = personnel car taxation???
Bloody nightmare and just realised, I only drove passed the damn camera due to missing my exit off the round about and going the wrong way!!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrr
As stated in my previous email the vehicle is registered with the DVLA as a lights goods vehicle therefore if you wish to dispute this please contact the DVLA directly as the notice still stands.
Kind Regards
Laura Ferris
Admin Team Leader
Speed Enforcement Unit
Criminal Justice Department
To help muddy the water, here is a helpful link given by Laura, of the aptly named department
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
There at the top is "dual purpose vehicle" Can anyone explain/describe what a "dual purpose" vehicle is, if not a car/van that can carry people and i.e. tools/bike/kitchen sink at the same time???!!! Has anyone change the description on the V5 with the DVLA and does this change the taxation of the vehicle, I thinking, making this a car = personnel car taxation???
Bloody nightmare and just realised, I only drove passed the damn camera due to missing my exit off the round about and going the wrong way!!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrr
SS2. said:
wessexrfc said:
To help muddy the water, here is a helpful link given by Laura, of the aptly named department
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
That doesn't muddy the waters in the slightest, IMO - either your vehicle meets the statutory requirements of a DPV, or it doesn't. As FiF has already stated, it is this and this alone that matters - not the vehicle type on the V5C, not the taxation class, not the factually incorrect responses of an SCP drone.https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
wessexrfc said:
There at the top is "dual purpose vehicle" Can anyone explain/describe what a "dual purpose" vehicle is...
See Page 1 - perhaps Ms. Ferris could do worse than genning up on the same.Have you returned the completed s.172 form yet ?
Edited by wessexrfc on Tuesday 29th July 23:17
FiF said:
One other thing OP. May I suggest that you have the conversation with DVLA and ask them about the issue of registering a vehicle as a DPV.
I suspect they can't. It may be that they don't even have the category on their system.
Personally would be most grateful if you could do that and let us know their answer. PM is ok if don't want to post up in public. Would be of assistance in my discussion with my MP.
I will do and happy to share the info.......I suspect they can't. It may be that they don't even have the category on their system.
Personally would be most grateful if you could do that and let us know their answer. PM is ok if don't want to post up in public. Would be of assistance in my discussion with my MP.
FiF said:
Toltec said:
On here http://www.sussexsaferroads.gov.uk/costs/safer-for... right at the bottom it says-
"We receive regular queries with regards to the Mercedes Vito, which if it fits the above is a DPV – does your vehicle fit the criteria for a Dual Purpose Vehicle?"
Good spot. Thanks for posting. "We receive regular queries with regards to the Mercedes Vito, which if it fits the above is a DPV – does your vehicle fit the criteria for a Dual Purpose Vehicle?"
The advice of sending the correspondence and photos of my vehicle, along with the above link will be my next course of action.................... With these feet said:
Im going to stick my Transit on the race scales - if it comes in under weight theres no reason why it shouldnt be classed as a DPV. Plus I live in East Sussex so I will carry a copy of they around.....
Its the plated weight, rather than the true weight, but I guess you gest!! I have sent all the paper work, complete with letter explaining my situation and argument, email correspondence (or lack of it from them) photos and forms, we shall see..................SS2. said:
wessexrfc said:
..only other option was to to reclassify my vehicle with the DVLA and I couldn't be bothered with the hassle and potential vat implications that could entail.
Reclassification of the vehicle with DVLA wouldn't have been necessary.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff