Racially abused - advice please.

[andy118run]

I will try not to waffle too much - just got in from work and my other half casually tells me she was called a black c**t today. I'm a white bloke, she's black African, by the way.

Obviously my first thoughts are 'what the heck?', 'You're kidding me' and similar.

Anyway, this happened around 13.00 hours today in the busy food court of a shopping mall. My other half was meeting a friend for lunch, our 4 year old was on one of these 50p slot cars with a child whose parents were nearby. The other child's mother asked my partner to remove our son as she wanted to put 50p in the car for her son. Our son didn't appreciate this and played up a bit - my other half sort of glanced over at the father as if to say 'sorry I'm struggling a bit here' etc. She was immediately met with the racial abuse described above along with other comments such as 'I'm gonna punch you'.

The whole thing lasted maybe a minute or two. Eventually the other family got up and left with the father saying something like 'she's doing my head in' but from how my partner describes it she certainly feared she was going to be assaulted during this episode.

Now, I'm no expert, which is why I'm posting here for advice. However, both my parents were police officers (long since retired) so I tend to have a bit of instinct around these things. My first thought is this should have been called into the police at the time but my partner is pretty easy going and not likely to do this. My second thought is I will call 101 in the morning and report this.

Am I being reasonable? I don't think my partner will call 101 but I really don't want to let this go. I'm pretty sure she would be happy to give a statement. Are the police likely to come round and take a statement? Would they look into this, maybe look for some CCTV, or would they just log it and let it go?

Sorry for the waffle, any advice welcome.

[andy118run]

Octoposse said:

It's a Hate Incident - perhaps Hate Crime - so, yes, report it and it will be taken seriously. What Police force area?

It happened in Norwich.
I have just checked out the Norfolk police website and they make it pretty easy to report a 'hate crime' online. Would still rather call in and do it I think.

Edited by andy118run on Friday 25th July 23:07

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Mk3Spitfire said:

They should take it seriously. Racism is a hot potato and most forces have a zero tolerance approach.
Clearly offences have been committed. Certainly racially aggravated public order, and technically racially aggravated assault too. If it was in a busy area there's a good chance of CCTV/witnesses. Only problem would be identifying the offenders. I would HOPE they would come out and deal with you properly. I'd seriously consider phoning 101...to have a chat with an officer if nothing else.

That's what I was a thinking - I often have to report bits and pieces to the police through my work (mental health nurse). The one thing they pretty much always come out for are racially motivated stuff.

[andy118run]

Thanks for the advice - that's all I needed really, a few folks to confirm that I was thinking along the right lines. I will keep you updated accordingly.

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Toltec said:

Mk3Spitfire said:

ging84 said:

Do what ever you would do if she was called a stupid , a fat or an ugly etc by someone who then threatened to punch her. Dont over focus on the racial aspect, one use of the word black does automatically turn a scuffle into a hate crime

Using the word black before the word c**t and threatening to punch someone at that time, does EXACTLY that...it turns it into a racially aggravated crime.

I get what ging84 means, I think, the behaviour towards the OP's partner and child was not acceptable irrespective of any racial component. Was it however sufficiently egregious to involve the police without the inclusion of the racial epithet? Would the other party have been just as objectionable to anyone?

The way I read it the two kids were on the ride, but it was not running? So was the other mother not wanting to pay for a ride for someone else's kid or a black kid specifically? One is just being mean the other is racism.

So, yes, if the OP partner felt under threat of violence report it, then let the police work out if it was racially motivated.

Yes, both kids were sitting in the ride and it was not running. I don't think the mother wanted my son out because of his colour, more a case of (as you say) being a bit mean. My other half did mention something about offering to pay the 50p to the mother/put it in the slot but obviously things escalated.

I don't think the other mother was particularly the problem at any point, but the father just sounds like he was a nasty piece of work (apparently my partner first noticed him when he entered the food place about 10 minutes before the incident as he was loudly and repeatedly effing and blinding at his young son).

My feeling was the same as Mk3Spitfire, as soon as he preceded his abuse/threats with the word "black" it becomes racially motivated.

[andy118run]

Rick101 said:

Sounds like you're more bothered than she is.

Thought it was probably upsetting for her at the time, its really no big deal. Personally I'd just forget about it. Kids Get called that in school every day.

I would have thought a mother should be able to go shopping or for lunch with her 4 year old son without wondering if she might meet somebody who will racially abuse her.

Yes, it probably does bother me more than it bothered her at the time. She has a pretty thick skin as she often gets abused at work and that rarely comes to much. However, being abused at work by a mentally ill patient is one thing, having somebody abuse you in a shopping centre when you minding your own business with your young son is another, I am thinking.

Anyway, I asked for advice and I will take it all on board, thanks.

[andy118run]

jimbop1 said:

Agree.

Just to clarify..are you more bothered that she was called black than you are that she feared she may get punched?

I think both elements bother me equally, actually. I would still be wanting to report this, even if the racial abuse had not been there. I agree that the thread title suggests I am more bothered by the racial aspect than the threat of violence. I know there are people out there who resort to violence and aggression without a second thought, I just find it doubly depressing that there are still scumbags like this who think it's ok to abuse people like this.

Just to clarify, I'm not some caped crusader fighting for racial equality. I've been with the other half 5 or 6 years and nothing like this has ever cropped up before. I'm just an average bloke who prefers to mind his own business. However, what occurred earlier just does not seem right.

Edited by andy118run on Saturday 26th July 01:51

[andy118run]

Eclassy said:

I personally wouldnt bother (I am African). If she's easy going tnen let it slide. The bloke is probably a loser anyway and I am sure he wouldnt have used that term if you were there with the missus. It was easy for him to pick on a defenceless woman.

CCTV will not prove anything apart from the fact that the loser was in the same area as your missus. John Terry was caught on Sky TV calling a fellow player a black ct and PC Alex MacFarlane was caught on tape calling an arrested suspect a nier. Both were cleared.

Maybe Norwich police are better but if you went into a London police station with this report, you'll probably be laughed at or threatned with arrest yourself.

Thanks for that and also to Rick101. It doesn't surprise me at all that a couple of black fellas have come along and said it really isn't worth it. Certainly deterred me from making that call. However, I have now been on the Norfolk Constabulary website and reported it. We shall see where that goes.

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poo at Paul's said:

OP I'm a bit mystified by all this, mainly because it sounds like a clear cut case, and surely the course of action you've taken was absolutely obvious.
But I have difficulties with all this, and please don't be offended by my asking.
1. It's so clear cut, why did your partner not want to proceed.
2. Why have you as her other half come on here asking for the opinions of the internet, surely it's so clear cut, there was only one thing you can do. Particularly as a 4 year old saw and heard all this.

So I am wondering if this is maybe not as clear cut as you make out, again devils advocate here. Because if it was, it makes no sense that either of you question the course of action.

You mention that your missus gave the father a 'look' saying 'I'm struggling here'. You know your missus. Is it possible that this 'look' may have been another type of 'look'. Eg a dirty look or scorning look?
If not, is it possible that this guy misinterpreted this 'look' or was it clear.
You say what the perp said, but don't mention too much about what your missus said, just really mention this 'look'.

Don't take my question the wrong way, but could there be some other reason that your missus didn't want to take this further? Again, purely devils advocate here....because on the basis of what you say happened, I am not sure there is any doubt to any sane person what course of action your missus should have taken.

Well, just a small update, though there's not much to say. I just made a quick call to 101 as I haven't heard anything since reporting this online yesterday. In hindsight I probably should have just called in with this as it sounds like these email reports sometimes go a day or two without being looked at if their phones are busy. Anyway, the chap thinks someone is looking at emails this morning so I left it at that.

Anyway, to respond to the above, obviously I wasn't present so I only go by what the other half says but she's really not the sort to look for trouble or wind people up. As for point (1), she is quite happy to give police a statement - if she had told me just to forget then I would have but she is quite willing to proceed. I agree that most right minded people will conclude this should be reported to the police but the fact that a couple a black people as well as somebody in a mixed race relationship have been on here to pretty much say 'don't bother' makes me think it was worth asking the question (and still makes me wonder if it's going to be worth the hassle).

With regard to the details of what happened - from what the missus says I don't believe she gave the fella any kind of hostile look to provoke this. Her and her friend did have a little grumble among themselves as they thought it was unfair to treat our son like that and it appears the father had also picked up on this. I didn't realise before, but apparently our son was standing next to the other half with the bloke saying 'I'll come over there and smash your head in' among other threats.

Possibly a rational person would have walked away or used some de-escalation skills but my other half says that when she was threatened she stood up and said 'I'd like to see you try' which maybe didn't help but in her eyes she was 'standing up to a bully'. The black comment was apparently made as he walked away from the place and she says she just smiled at him after he said that.

All things considered I don't believe she did anything wrong - if I felt there may be some CCTV evidence of her jumping up and down with her fists raised shouting abuse I would probably leave it but I believe that's not the case.

[andy118run]

thetrash said:

Chapelfield or Castle Mall?

Castle Mall.
The offending gentleman left the mall via the entrance by the toilets onto Farmers Avenue.

[andy118run]

Snowboy said:

It should be reported.
It was wrong.

However, just for the sake of discussion I'm going to take a slightly different perspective.

The wife's kids were playing on a toy but hadn't paid for it.
The new family wanted to pay.
Etiquette on these toys generally means the payers get priority.
Wife doesn't remove kids, an argument ensues.

At this point, all else being equal, I'm mostly on the side of the new family who want to pay for the toy.

The argument escalates a bit and then the new family drop the BC bomb.
Now, saying C in front of kids in a public place is a pretty poor show, adding a racial term into that is even worse.

There is a difference between abusing someone because they are black vs abusing someone for another reason and including their race in the insult.
It wasn't racially motivated abuse.

I wouldn't disagree with the point you make on etiquette - I sometimes find myself waiting to put money in these things for my son while other kids are having a free sit/play on these toys. I'm pretty laid back though and tend to wait a minute or 2 for them to get off rather than ask parents to remove their kid. The situation here was slightly different in that both kids were already sitting in the car together but that's by the by now.

By way of an update, I would strongly advise anybody who ever wishes to report a crime in Norfolk to avoid the 'online report a crime' option on their website. Having reported this online on Saturday morning, it was finally logged (and I was allocated a ref/CAD number at 3pm this afternoon). Anyway, the lady in the control room appeared quite apologetic that this had taken more than 2 days to be logged. Apparently they are pretty busy today so an appointment has been made for tomorrow afternoon (Tuesday) for them to come out and take a statement from the missus.

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DeanR32 said:

OP, I hope the police deal with this as severely as possible, if not for your thick skinned partners sake, but for your child's at least. God help the person who ever racially abuses one of my kids!

Don't take a blind bit of notice of people on here saying it's not racially motivated. It is, and the law states it is. I s suffered plenty in my time, and I take every case seriously, and act accordingly in each instance. My uncles stab wounds and fathers missing tooth (GRHS) tell me I'm right to do so

To be fair (not that I'm that inclined to treat him fairly!)there was no abuse directly toward our son - more a case of him being in vicinity and probably hearing it.

Anyway, the police have been and spoken to the other half this pm, it's being investigated as racially aggravated section 5 (a public order offence I believe?).

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IainT said:

Its also certainly not my experience of working in IT in various organisations - ethnicity and gender haven't appeared to be a blocker to good ideas being recognised. Saying that as a white male it's probably not something I'd be overly sensitive to.

My immediate team of 8 down in London had:
3 white british males
2 indian males
1 black female
1 south african indian male
1 chinese-malay male

Race or gender was never an issue, why on earth would it be? What is did add was the ability to ask people first hand about their cultures and experiences. Listening to stories about growing up under Apartheid was far more interesting and real that a documentary.

Racism must be an educational and exposure issue - I actually hear far more racist comments now I've moved back up north to a very white town. Head down to a pub to watch a game and the number of times you'll hear the colour of an opposition player mentioned is frankly embarrassing.

You wouldn't hear that in general from a better educated crowd nor one where they spend every day in a mixed environment and have friends from all ethnicities.

In my view it's right that racial abuse is tackled with priority.

Very much agree with this. I think earlier in the topic somebody mentioned the lack of diversity in Norfolk.

Personally, I spent 10 years as a nurse in London, often I would be the only white person in a ward team of 20 or 30 people. In those 10 years I don't recall any problems, everyone got along and (as you mention), it was nice to learn about other cultures, their experiences, their festivals etc.

I've now been back in Norfolk a year and a half. We have one black fella in our team of 20 or 30 and that's it (apart from a few agency staff who are black African/one Mauritian).

Barely a day goes by that I don't cringe at some of the comments - in my first ever handover there was some confusion regarding two of the black agency staff and the nurse handing over commented 'well they do look a bit alike I suppose' (they don't, apart from both being black). A week or two ago I was in the city with my son and met one of my colleagues. When I saw him later at work he commented, 'I didn't realise your wife was coloured'.

As you say, education and exposure is probably the difference between somewhere like London and Norfolk, which I assume is still made up of at least 90%+ white British people.

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DeanR32 said:

Skipping all the nonsense, how is this going OP?

Nothing much to report as yet. After giving the details of what happened to the officer which visited, the other half had a call the following day (last Tuesday, 28th) from the officer who the case has been allocated to. I believe they have also been in contact with the friend the other half was meeting at the time of the incident as she obviously saw/heard what happened.

The original officer who came out said the most likely plan would be to try and obtain some CCTV images of the offender and try to identify him, most likely by circulating any images among themselves as people who do this sort of thing have often come to the attention of the police previously.

In any case, I know nothing much about the law but a quick google of the Public Order Act suggests section 5 is pretty low on the scale so if they do find him it probably won't lead to anymore than 'words of advice'.

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Bigends said:

It'll be a racially aggravated S4A (not S5) offence - comments were directed at the victim intending to alarm/distress

I would have thought so, but the officer who came and took the details initially definitely said 'racially aggravated section 5' when she was calling it in for the crime reference, so presumably she didn't think it met the criteria for S4A.

[andy118run]

• ********************UPDATE***************************

So the other half has received a letter today from the officer dealing with this case. Basically saying the CCTV has been studied but does not cover the area of the incident and no people matching the offender's description could be identified leaving the area. Therefore, the case is closed.

To those on here who said don't bother, I now see where you were coming from. Would I/we bother to report something like this is future? Almost certainly not.

[andy118run]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

You can't expect a 100% crime clear up rate. It's always worth reporting. In a few years there may be another Stephen Lawrence type incident and your wife might recognise the face of the accused. Then it will have been very well worth reporting.

I guess you have a point, though I suppose she might recognise his face regardless of whether she had reported it. Considering he wasn't identified and linked to this offence it probably wouldn't be relevant anyway.
It just feels to me a little more could have been done - since this happened I've read several appeals for witnesses on the Norfolk police website and local press for similarly trivial incidents such as people being verbally abused in the city but nothing for this incident. I also find it pretty hard to believe CCTV did not pick up at some point, maybe entering or leaving the place as there are cameras all over there.

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Mk3Spitfire said:

So just because on this instance, the offender wasn't located and tracked down (from a busy, high footfall area) it was all a complete waste of time, the police are crap, and anarchy should reign?

Edited by Mk3Spitfire on Wednesday 6th August 11:27

No, not really. As mentioned in my original post, my parents were both police officers, my dad a Sgt in Suffolk police for many years so I am generally inclined to be rather pro-police and appreciate the difficult work they do.

However, I suspect that had this chap killed/seriously injured/committed an armed robbery (basically committed a more 'serious' crime) a CCTV image of him would have been found - it's a busy city centre shopping mall full of CCTV cameras, for cripes sake!

Anyway, I can see how the police don't really have resources to be looking into something like this in any depth. Which is why I probably would not bother to report such an incident again (if I witnessed something like this in progress I would be inclined to call in though as that was maybe the window of opportunity which was missed in this case).

The other little thing that niggled me about this was the letter received today. A second class letter in the post, telling you there's no evidence and the crime is closed. Really? If the police can be bothered to visit and take details, you would think they would at least make a phone call and say 'Sorry, we did our best but we've had to close this one etc.' Surely would have been quicker than writing a letter, in any case, and mean a little bit more.