Bankruptcy. Avoiding debt and hiding stuff.
Discussion
This really is, not me, or a friend! 
Some of you may be aware of my old thread where my ex-landlord failed to give us back our tenancy deposit, conned money from us and left us with huge electricity bills and no heating for a whole winter.
As they were well known debtors, backed up with a dubious title they bought, insisting that everyone referred to them as 'Lord and Lady X' I did think that things were running a bit easy when my hearing date for the county court claim was up in October.
However, from a Google search, I have found that 'Lady' X has made herself bankrupt a few weeks ago. The claim is against her as the husband passed away.
To give some background, in the last year I know of £100k of very visible assets that have been 'disposed of', the daughter has been on a 5 month round the world trip earlier this year, and, by sheer co-incidence I noted that removal vans were there at the 12 bedroom manor house removing items on what turned out to be the day before the bankruptcy petition.
I wasn't contacted by the Official Receiver as I wasn't even noted as a creditor on the application that went before the court!
An independent person with knowledge of the couple's dealing has come up with the theory that the bankruptcy has been planned for some time, with the sale/removal of assets with the monies pocketed and hidden, so in 12 months time she can phoenix while wiping off all debts. Including mine.
Any advice chaps? Anything useful, and even just support will be much appreciated!
Some of you may be aware of my old thread where my ex-landlord failed to give us back our tenancy deposit, conned money from us and left us with huge electricity bills and no heating for a whole winter.
As they were well known debtors, backed up with a dubious title they bought, insisting that everyone referred to them as 'Lord and Lady X' I did think that things were running a bit easy when my hearing date for the county court claim was up in October.
However, from a Google search, I have found that 'Lady' X has made herself bankrupt a few weeks ago. The claim is against her as the husband passed away.
To give some background, in the last year I know of £100k of very visible assets that have been 'disposed of', the daughter has been on a 5 month round the world trip earlier this year, and, by sheer co-incidence I noted that removal vans were there at the 12 bedroom manor house removing items on what turned out to be the day before the bankruptcy petition.
I wasn't contacted by the Official Receiver as I wasn't even noted as a creditor on the application that went before the court!
An independent person with knowledge of the couple's dealing has come up with the theory that the bankruptcy has been planned for some time, with the sale/removal of assets with the monies pocketed and hidden, so in 12 months time she can phoenix while wiping off all debts. Including mine.
Any advice chaps? Anything useful, and even just support will be much appreciated!
TooMany2cvs said:
JustinP1 said:
Any advice chaps? Anything useful, and even just support will be much appreciated!
Put all the information you have, and any evidence, in front of the person handling the bankruptcy. Their job is to ensure that all assets are identified, then to ensure they're fairly divided amongst creditors.Given that you're a creditor, you should already be in contact with them?
I thought I'd post on here, not only to update my old thread but to see if anyone has had any particular experience.
The other thing of course is whether I am advised, or even able to continue the County Court claim. The issue is that I shall be paying a £325 hearing fee, and turning up to a probably empty courtroom, thus incurring yet more costs that I may never recover.
tenpenceshort said:
Can you afford to sit on the 'debt'?
Bankruptcy typically lasts a year before discharge (lots of reasons this may be extended, though). Does bankruptcy wipe your exposure to claims post-discharge, based on debts accrued prior to it? I may be wrong, but my recollection is that it would not.
This is the issue. I can afford to sit on the debt, only because I may as well if I'm going to get nothing anyway. Thankfully, I've never been on either end on bankruptcy, so I don't know the rules.Bankruptcy typically lasts a year before discharge (lots of reasons this may be extended, though). Does bankruptcy wipe your exposure to claims post-discharge, based on debts accrued prior to it? I may be wrong, but my recollection is that it would not.
I've found that you cannot start action against a bankrupt, however, thats not the case. I was frank with the first person I spoke with in the receiver's office, and he mentioned that as the 'debt' was incurred before the bankruptcy was entered into, then it would be included in the bankruptcy.
Whether that is the case for 100%, or whether I could restart action 12 months on are the variables at the moment.
tenpenceshort said:
Has the previous judgment been set aside? Forgive me if I'm remembering it wrong, however is the debt not still in dispute?
Yep, still disputed and set aside despite the Deputy District Judge saying that the Defence was bunkum... My appeal against setting aside is currectly waiting for the court to set a hearing date, and the trial date for the whole caboodle is six weeks away.
Steffan said:
If there are any specific questions I will try to be helpful in replies. But I honestly doubt that this is actually worth the candle.
Cheers Steffan, your advice is much appreciated.I'd usually just pay for advice, and in most situations for large sums, I'd tell posters myself (as tenpence has!) that personal legal advice is best, however, I must decide where I must cut my losses.
To give some background, the couple bought a dilapidated manor house for the price of a car 20 years ago, then used grants to repair it, bought a 'title', and thought that it was OK just to call themselves Lord and Lady Surname. Over the years, save for a few weddings a year at the place, they've not worked and remortgaged for a seven figure sum.
The vanity even went to building a huge holiday home abroad, and a £100k RV to travel to it in. All of course with no income to fund it all.
They've done all right - their kids have been to private school, and they've lived like real Lords over the years, but that's been funded on other people's money, not only through debt, but simply not paying people for their goods and services. You'll always think a 'Lord' in a manor house will pay you right....?
On the other hand, on how it affects my family, even if I forget the claim amounts for not protecting the tenancy deposit, and even the amounts as a refund of rent for the half of the property we couldn't use as it could not be heated, and even if I forget the money we were scammed for a communal service pot that didn't exist, my family is still out of pocket our tenancy deposit and the huge electricity bill.
That's a total of £3000, alone with the £300 court fee. My choice now is a stark one, as the reality is I shall have to explain to my wife and daughter the things that we hoped to do but now cannot afford to do because of this. For that reason, I have no desire to throw even more money down a hole, as you have advised, as it just makes matters worse.
In terms of questions (and I thank you for your help in advance):
How can I 'prove' the debt? Will the Particulars of Claim with some documentary evidence be good enough?
Is it right that the 'debt' occurred pre-bankrupcy and could never be claimed again - tenpence's idea, stopping the claim, then claiming after discharge is out of the question?
PurpleMoonlight said:
If the OR is willing to include your debt then there seems little point in paying out more money for the court hearing. Even if you obtained judgement it would not make you a preferential creditor.
This is the most annoying thing about the Deputy District Judge that agreed to set judgment aside. Part of my appeal was due to the lack of a reasonable Defence, the best she could have hoped for was a conditional order, and this is backed up by case law.
That means she would be allowed to mount a defence as long as she deposited the judgment amount with the court in 14 days. Then, I would have legally been a secured creditor.
Or, failing her lodging the money, I would have enforced the debt months ago.
Eleven said:
JustinP1 said:
My choice now is a stark one, as the reality is I shall have to explain to my wife and daughter the things that we hoped to do but now cannot afford to do because of this. For that reason, I have no desire to throw even more money down a hole, as you have advised, as it just makes matters worse.
Now you're engaging in a little too much self-pity and melodrama methinks. You're talking about £3300 aren't you? Ten per cent of which you chose to spend upon litigation which, if I recall the facts of the case, was ill-advised. You run a business and a TVR, honestly I am struggling to visualise how this magnitude of bad debt is going to ruin your life and if you've been telling your family they were going to do X, Y and Z on the proceeds of a successful court claim you quite frankly shouldn't have been. Small claims is a knock-about business at he best of times, the outcome of which is always uncertain.
You would be far better off accepting the matter as dead, the loss as a £3300 educational course in how not to do things in future and moving on
I run a business, but that doesn't mean I'm loaded, far from it. I don't own a TVR any more, I have a daughter instead now.
The lost of litigation was actually 3% of the claim, and I was a litigant in person so a good risk. The solicitor I spoke to was very good, but that would have dumped £3000 of costs in there, so, I'm glad I didn't. The debt won't ruin my life, no, of course not. But I work hard to provide for my family, and it is somewhat galling to lose a very decent sum of money, even more so to who I lost it to. Where my business is at the moment, £3000 does make a lot of difference to my family. I don't think many on here could simply see £3000 disappear and not see the effect.
With regards to the facts of the case, I think you are thinking of another thread. This one's pretty straightforward, so straightforward that the judge at the set aside hearing did in not many more words explain the reasons to the other side's solicitor that they shouldn't even bother defending it. The Defendant sacked her solicitor when they told her that it was suicidal not to settle.
In terms of 'how not to do things in future', I am somewhat at a loss what I've done wrong... but hey ho...
Edited by JustinP1 on Thursday 28th August 11:39
Eleven, I know what you are saying. And also if anyone had seen the claim paperwork had said I didn't have a as near as dammit certain chance at court, I wouldn't have run with it. As it happened, the solicitor who looked over the case physically laughed as he read the Defence, and as I said, the judge himself ripped the Defence apart.
The actual issue is that for a whole winter, we had an absolute nightmare of a time, whilst Lord and Lady Muck drove of in a 10mpg £100k RV around southern europe. I was willing to walk away from the whole issue just as long as we got our tenancy deposit back, and we weren't stuck paying nearly £2000 in electricity arrears that were left when we went - as that would just add insult to injury.
However, not only was that letter filed in the bin, I found that effectively our tenancy deposit was spent fuelling their trips.
Believe me, I am totally with you about not suing for principle, or injustice, I am very practical minded in that respect, which is why I kept costs to a minimum. It was simply to get our money back, and avoid paying a bill that really, we shouldn't have to.
Which is where I am now, asking the good PHers for practical advice on what I can do rapidly, and cheaply to give me the best chance of doing that!
The actual issue is that for a whole winter, we had an absolute nightmare of a time, whilst Lord and Lady Muck drove of in a 10mpg £100k RV around southern europe. I was willing to walk away from the whole issue just as long as we got our tenancy deposit back, and we weren't stuck paying nearly £2000 in electricity arrears that were left when we went - as that would just add insult to injury.
However, not only was that letter filed in the bin, I found that effectively our tenancy deposit was spent fuelling their trips.
Believe me, I am totally with you about not suing for principle, or injustice, I am very practical minded in that respect, which is why I kept costs to a minimum. It was simply to get our money back, and avoid paying a bill that really, we shouldn't have to.
Which is where I am now, asking the good PHers for practical advice on what I can do rapidly, and cheaply to give me the best chance of doing that!
Edited by JustinP1 on Thursday 28th August 12:02
Whoa whoa whoa Sweet Child 'o Mine!
I didn't just start this thread to bleat or moan - check the OP. I only mentioned facts of the claim as a poster suggested that the claim itself was ill-founded.
I don't want to just 'forget it' for good reason - I've started the thread to get specific advice about bankruptcy. In particular:
a) How I go about 'proving' the debt to the Official Receiver, and
b) If there is anything I can do (that I've not already done) to make sure assets haven't been hidden and the bankruptcy is kosher.
There's no point in me just 'forgetting about it', if I can do the above with very little cost and a modest investment of time. Indeed, I'd be pretty stupid to give up at this stage and do nothing, if all I need to do is get my name on a debtors list, and then have the chance to get a cheque in 12 months time. Especially when the alternative is my claim gets wiped out anyway, and if there is a remaining sum it will go to the debtor!
There are significant assets involved, which will outweigh the unsecured debts the vast majority of people would be allowed to run up.
I didn't just start this thread to bleat or moan - check the OP. I only mentioned facts of the claim as a poster suggested that the claim itself was ill-founded.
I don't want to just 'forget it' for good reason - I've started the thread to get specific advice about bankruptcy. In particular:
a) How I go about 'proving' the debt to the Official Receiver, and
b) If there is anything I can do (that I've not already done) to make sure assets haven't been hidden and the bankruptcy is kosher.
There's no point in me just 'forgetting about it', if I can do the above with very little cost and a modest investment of time. Indeed, I'd be pretty stupid to give up at this stage and do nothing, if all I need to do is get my name on a debtors list, and then have the chance to get a cheque in 12 months time. Especially when the alternative is my claim gets wiped out anyway, and if there is a remaining sum it will go to the debtor!
There are significant assets involved, which will outweigh the unsecured debts the vast majority of people would be allowed to run up.
Edited by JustinP1 on Thursday 28th August 13:17
IanA2 said:
Losing £3k is irritating, a bit like depreciation on a car. You do seem to be "emotionally" invested in this loss. Is it really worth it?
Even if you do get judgement in your favour, where would you be in the list of creditors and what would the payout be? 20p in pound? On £3K that would be £600.
Line drawing time I think.
As I said, a few times, I have my 'legal' head on here. In litigation you play the odds not the principle. I know that.Even if you do get judgement in your favour, where would you be in the list of creditors and what would the payout be? 20p in pound? On £3K that would be £600.
Line drawing time I think.
Sums, including interest will be circa £12k. Even if it went to court, and was disputed, the very worst case scenario is £9k. Even 20p in the point on that is fine, especially if I can get that with a few hours effort now.
I know there are three unsecured creditors, apart from me. I also know that the debtor had at least £50k of assets a few weeks ago, on top of the £70k plus which disappeared just under a year ago. In terms of the assets, if they haven't been sold, I happen to know where they are, in storage. So, a few things go in my favour.
Cheers for everyone's responses - instead of replying individually to everyone, I'll amalgamate answers to all questions:
Firstly, as tenpence has pointed out, I can get in very serious trouble by taking the 'jokey PH' route, so I'm doing everything by the book.
Secondly, a couple of posters have mentioned about whether it is a 'genuine' bankruptcy. Please don't get me wrong, I do know that bankruptcy was inevitable for them.
What caused their bankruptcy was stupidity, arrogance, vanity and greed. I could fill a thread with stories from here, many are laughable, but I don't want this thread to become linked to the situation for obvious reasons, as the couple were well known locally, not just for calling themselves 'Lord and Lady' but their actions over the years.
If one knew the background, you'd actually be astonished if she now did anything but play the system to their own advantage - they'd been profiting from that for 20 years...
I have no problem with her going bankrupt. However, she shouldn't go bankrupt without disclosing that she's disposed of £100k of assets in the last year, and that she still owns the contents of a totally decked out listed Tudor manor used as a wedding venue and hotel. That's another £100k.
That's the bit I have the problem with. The money-pit of the house may be shed - it was mortgaged to the hilt anyway, but all the rest of the debts will be written off, and she'll still have maybe £200k in the bank to buy a house. That's not right. Just to add, the main house was not repossessed, and she'd moved out into rented accommodation. So, she at least had a few thousand pounds of cash just to cover the rent and very large removal fees.
The Official Receiver did seem quite interested in what I had to say - it does very much seem that the assets were possibly listed as 'furniture' and gone under the radar. The fact that they were removed 24 hours before bankruptcy, and I have evidence of that, was also of interest to them.
So, I'm putting forward, on request, a written statement so they can investigate. Hopefully I can give them enough information that when she'd hit with it during interview she admits it.
With regards to my claim, unfortunately they told me that the debt will not be 'proven' until I get judgment. So, I'll have to pay the £300 hearing fee and go through the motions. The odds are I need to receive 3 pence in the pound on the debt to make that worthwhile, so, I'm going to give it a punt.
Thanks for all the ideas, help and advice so far chaps.
Firstly, as tenpence has pointed out, I can get in very serious trouble by taking the 'jokey PH' route, so I'm doing everything by the book.
Secondly, a couple of posters have mentioned about whether it is a 'genuine' bankruptcy. Please don't get me wrong, I do know that bankruptcy was inevitable for them.
What caused their bankruptcy was stupidity, arrogance, vanity and greed. I could fill a thread with stories from here, many are laughable, but I don't want this thread to become linked to the situation for obvious reasons, as the couple were well known locally, not just for calling themselves 'Lord and Lady' but their actions over the years.
If one knew the background, you'd actually be astonished if she now did anything but play the system to their own advantage - they'd been profiting from that for 20 years...
I have no problem with her going bankrupt. However, she shouldn't go bankrupt without disclosing that she's disposed of £100k of assets in the last year, and that she still owns the contents of a totally decked out listed Tudor manor used as a wedding venue and hotel. That's another £100k.
That's the bit I have the problem with. The money-pit of the house may be shed - it was mortgaged to the hilt anyway, but all the rest of the debts will be written off, and she'll still have maybe £200k in the bank to buy a house. That's not right. Just to add, the main house was not repossessed, and she'd moved out into rented accommodation. So, she at least had a few thousand pounds of cash just to cover the rent and very large removal fees.
The Official Receiver did seem quite interested in what I had to say - it does very much seem that the assets were possibly listed as 'furniture' and gone under the radar. The fact that they were removed 24 hours before bankruptcy, and I have evidence of that, was also of interest to them.
So, I'm putting forward, on request, a written statement so they can investigate. Hopefully I can give them enough information that when she'd hit with it during interview she admits it.
With regards to my claim, unfortunately they told me that the debt will not be 'proven' until I get judgment. So, I'll have to pay the £300 hearing fee and go through the motions. The odds are I need to receive 3 pence in the pound on the debt to make that worthwhile, so, I'm going to give it a punt.
Thanks for all the ideas, help and advice so far chaps.
Edited by JustinP1 on Friday 29th August 11:15
Slaav said:
Please think long and hard about whether to continue chasing this matter.
Do not rely on the IS or OR in any capacity. The are utterly toothless even when fraud is proven..... Under funded and over worked etc. then you come up against the 'public interest' issue even if 100% proven.
My gut feel is 'walk away' as the pure stress and emotion is not worth it! Trust me.
Ps - I am still pursuing and getting somewhere chasing a discharged bankrupt but the sums are very different. And that is with cast iron proof and paperwork of fraud, hidden assets and lies in the petition. I got my MP and Vincent Cable involved and still no guarantee that the IS will pursue the lying cheating f
ker ! (And breath.....)
I know this has been the general 'vibe' from half of the posters.Do not rely on the IS or OR in any capacity. The are utterly toothless even when fraud is proven..... Under funded and over worked etc. then you come up against the 'public interest' issue even if 100% proven.
My gut feel is 'walk away' as the pure stress and emotion is not worth it! Trust me.
Ps - I am still pursuing and getting somewhere chasing a discharged bankrupt but the sums are very different. And that is with cast iron proof and paperwork of fraud, hidden assets and lies in the petition. I got my MP and Vincent Cable involved and still no guarantee that the IS will pursue the lying cheating f
ker ! (And breath.....) The reality is that compared to spending dozens of hours fighting the claim so far what I have to do now is a breeze.
I'm really not spending every waking our seething over this, I was just looking for any practical advice on approaching the situation as I'd not experienced it before.
If I do nothing now, then the claim will be thrown out, and everything I've done to date has been a waste. My alternative is I'm paying £300, going to a probably undefended hearing to get my debt 'proven', I'm going to write to the OR telling him all I know and can prove and leave it in their hands.
If in a year's time I end up with a cheque from the OR for £10,000, £1,000, £100 or bugger all, then I have no control over that, so I'm not going to worry.
tenpenceshort said:
JustinP1 said:
I know this has been the general 'vibe' from half of the posters.
The reality is that compared to spending dozens of hours fighting the claim so far what I have to do now is a breeze.
I'm really not spending every waking our seething over this, I was just looking for any practical advice on approaching the situation as I'd not experienced it before.
If I do nothing now, then the claim will be thrown out, and everything I've done to date has been a waste. My alternative is I'm paying £300, going to a probably undefended hearing to get my debt 'proven', I'm going to write to the OR telling him all I know and can prove and leave it in their hands.
If in a year's time I end up with a cheque from the OR for £10,000, £1,000, £100 or bugger all, then I have no control over that, so I'm not going to worry.
I may be wrong, but I suspect you may run into difficulty continuing your claim against the bankrupt. As far as I can see the bankrupt defendant can apply to the court to have the your case stayed (see s.285 Insolvency Act 1986). The court is not obliged to accede, though in your case what grounds would they have to refuse?The reality is that compared to spending dozens of hours fighting the claim so far what I have to do now is a breeze.
I'm really not spending every waking our seething over this, I was just looking for any practical advice on approaching the situation as I'd not experienced it before.
If I do nothing now, then the claim will be thrown out, and everything I've done to date has been a waste. My alternative is I'm paying £300, going to a probably undefended hearing to get my debt 'proven', I'm going to write to the OR telling him all I know and can prove and leave it in their hands.
If in a year's time I end up with a cheque from the OR for £10,000, £1,000, £100 or bugger all, then I have no control over that, so I'm not going to worry.
Secondly, I'm not sure the issue of provable debts has been properly considered. On my reading, your claim is a provable debt for the purposes of bankruptcy irrespective of whether you have judgment or not ('provable' in this context does not mean you have to have your claim proven by a positive judgment on your behalf). See here; http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1925/artic....
Edited to Add; you also might end up fighting the OR, as s.314 of the Insolvency Act gives them power as trustee (with the court's permission) to defend any action against the bankrupt's estate.
Edited by tenpenceshort on Friday 29th August 12:18
The use of 'provable' there is that the onus is on me to prove it. As the Defendant had judgment set aside and put forward a Defence defending the whole claim, however spurious, then in the eyes of the OR there is no debt until I prove it. Their advice which went from the bottom to the top back down was that I would have to continue.
In terms of allowing claims, a current claim can continue but no new claim can be started.
Doing some more research, this niche area is one which has been commented on previously. The Insolvency Act means that I am barred from taking enforcement action, and of course the undischarged bankrupt can't pay me. However, should I discontinue the claim, or default, the debtor - or indeed the OR can stuff me for a costs order in doing so!
Weighing up the options, as you've kindly pointed out, the court does have the power to stay proceedings in the circumstances. That's actually the opposite to the advice the clerk gave me yesterday...
(cheers 10p!)The issue is whether that is in my best interests now. It looks like the OR is not going to admit the debt until I 'prove' it, and their line is that a disputed civil claim is exactly that - not a debt, which I can see the logic in.
My gut feeling is that I take a punt, pay the £300 and get the judgment, probably with me sitting alone at the hearing date with the Judge.
tenpenceshort said:
Insolvency Act said:
Provable debts
12.3. (1) Subject as follows, in both winding up and bankruptcy, all claims by creditors are provable as debts against the company or, as the case may be, the bankrupt, whether they are present or future, certain or contingent, ascertained or sounding only in damages.
(My bold)12.3. (1) Subject as follows, in both winding up and bankruptcy, all claims by creditors are provable as debts against the company or, as the case may be, the bankrupt, whether they are present or future, certain or contingent, ascertained or sounding only in damages.
I genuinely don't know if your debt needs 'proving' as you say, or whether your claim is in fact a Provable Debt as per the Insolvency Act. I wouldn't necessarily take the word of the OR or his representative on this and take some specialist advice.
I agree, and would always agree when there's an area of law a poster doesn't know about to get specialist advice. This is a bit of a practical exemption as it will mean pouring more cash into this, never to be seen. If it's going to cost £300 to nail this down then so be it, I'll go to court. That's probably cheaper than getting advice against the OR.
With regards to 'provable', there's a semantic difference in insolvency lingo.
In this context, 'provable' does mean a 'claim' is proof of a debt, it means that a claim is regarded as a 'provable' meaning an issue which must be proven by the creditor to be seen as a debt at all. To that effect I can see how a defended claim could not be seen as a debt until judgment.
Eleven said:
JustinP1 said:
Cheers ten pence
I agree, and would always agree when there's an area of law a poster doesn't know about to get specialist advice. This is a bit of a practical exemption as it will mean pouring more cash into this, never to be seen. If it's going to cost £300 to nail this down then so be it, I'll go to court. That's probably cheaper than getting advice against the OR.
With regards to 'provable', there's a semantic difference in insolvency lingo.
In this context, 'provable' does mean a 'claim' is proof of a debt, it means that a claim is regarded as a 'provable' meaning an issue which must be proven by the creditor to be seen as a debt at all. To that effect I can see how a defended claim could not be seen as a debt until judgment.
Apologies if I have missed a bit, but if I understand you correctly you've not paid the court fee yet?I agree, and would always agree when there's an area of law a poster doesn't know about to get specialist advice. This is a bit of a practical exemption as it will mean pouring more cash into this, never to be seen. If it's going to cost £300 to nail this down then so be it, I'll go to court. That's probably cheaper than getting advice against the OR.
With regards to 'provable', there's a semantic difference in insolvency lingo.
In this context, 'provable' does mean a 'claim' is proof of a debt, it means that a claim is regarded as a 'provable' meaning an issue which must be proven by the creditor to be seen as a debt at all. To that effect I can see how a defended claim could not be seen as a debt until judgment.
You told me earlier that £3k is a significant and life changing sum of money for you. Yet you are prepared to waste a minimum of another £300 on court fees to pursue someone from whom you're almost certainly not going to receive a penny.
It doesn't add up.
There's also no real suggestion that I am 'almost certainly not going to receive a penny'.
If she admits that she had assets, which will be difficult to deny as there's dozens of photos of them on their wedding website, I'll probably end up being paid in full. After that of course, the property will be sold, with the remaining proceeds going into the pot for unsecured creditors.
I'm simply playing the odds here. I either give up, and possibly see myself on the other end of a costs award against me (as I explained why), or I risk £300. The rest are sunken costs either way.
The equation is simple, the break even point is the OR awarding 3p in the pound to unsecured creditors. Any more than that then the money is a good investment. I'll take those odds in the circumstances.
Eleven said:
JustinP1 said:
"Life changing sum of money" - think you've been watching too much 'Deal or No Deal' - I've never said that!
There's also no real suggestion that I am 'almost certainly not going to receive a penny'.
If she admits that she had assets, which will be difficult to deny as there's dozens of photos of them on their wedding website, I'll probably end up being paid in full. After that of course, the property will be sold, with the remaining proceeds going into the pot for unsecured creditors.
I'm simply playing the odds here. I either give up, and possibly see myself on the other end of a costs award against me (as I explained why), or I risk £300. The rest are sunken costs either way.
The equation is simple, the break even point is the OR awarding 3p in the pound to unsecured creditors. Any more than that then the money is a good investment. I'll take those odds in the circumstances.
You said,There's also no real suggestion that I am 'almost certainly not going to receive a penny'.
If she admits that she had assets, which will be difficult to deny as there's dozens of photos of them on their wedding website, I'll probably end up being paid in full. After that of course, the property will be sold, with the remaining proceeds going into the pot for unsecured creditors.
I'm simply playing the odds here. I either give up, and possibly see myself on the other end of a costs award against me (as I explained why), or I risk £300. The rest are sunken costs either way.
The equation is simple, the break even point is the OR awarding 3p in the pound to unsecured creditors. Any more than that then the money is a good investment. I'll take those odds in the circumstances.
JustinP1 said:
My choice now is a stark one, as the reality is I shall have to explain to my wife and daughter the things that we hoped to do but now cannot afford to do because of this. For that reason, I have no desire to throw even more money down a hole, as you have advised, as it just makes matters worse.
You were planning to do things which you now cannot, your life has therefore changed. Or at least it had a couple of pages back.There is every suggestion that you won't receive a penny, I'm afraid. Obtaining judgement is really only the beginning of it. Obtaining judgement is much like being given a cheque to draw against an empty bank account.
The woman is unlikely to admit to having assets and what you see on a wedding website could be anything. Borrowed, hired, sold some time ago.
The cost of obtaining judgement is not the point, it is enforcing the judgement where your problem lies. Obtaining judgement doesn't make you a secured creditor.
I started this thread to ask the width of knowledge of the forum for practical advice, and I've got that from other posters. They've been very helpful indeed.
I've got no interest with you derailing and diluting the thread with critique of the minutiae.
She's not penniless, by any means, and if you think I don't know that for sure, then with respect, you know even less, but cheers for your input anyway.
Slaav said:
Eleven said:
.....
There is every suggestion that you won't receive a penny, I'm afraid. Obtaining judgement is really only the beginning of it. Obtaining judgement is much like being given a cheque to draw against an empty bank account.
The woman is unlikely to admit to having assets and what you see on a wedding website could be anything. Borrowed, hired, sold some time ago.
The cost of obtaining judgement is not the point, it is enforcing the judgement where your problem lies. Obtaining judgement doesn't make you a secured creditor.
This is the important point!There is every suggestion that you won't receive a penny, I'm afraid. Obtaining judgement is really only the beginning of it. Obtaining judgement is much like being given a cheque to draw against an empty bank account.
The woman is unlikely to admit to having assets and what you see on a wedding website could be anything. Borrowed, hired, sold some time ago.
The cost of obtaining judgement is not the point, it is enforcing the judgement where your problem lies. Obtaining judgement doesn't make you a secured creditor.
Being in possession of a 'cheque' means absolutely zilch I am afraid. SUCCESSFULLY enforcing this is the issue. Sorry
Now she is bankrupt, I don't need to enforce anything. All I need do is scan and email the judgment for the receiver, tell them where the assets are, wait until they've sold the house, which unless goes for a steal has equity in it, and wait.
I may actually end up better off than having to pay bailiffs for numerous visits, pay the court for charging orders, and eventually spending my own money making her bankrupt.
Considering that was my final straw, she's saved me the bother and cost.
Eleven said:
JustinP1 said:
I started this thread to ask the width of knowledge of the forum for practical advice, and I've got that from other posters. They've been very helpful indeed.
I've got no interest with you derailing and diluting the thread with critique of the minutiae.
I've given you practical advice, that being to forget it and move on. However it appears that what you consider practical is only anything that supports your ill-fated campaign.I've got no interest with you derailing and diluting the thread with critique of the minutiae.
If you think minutiae includes the point that a CCJ is of little help to you, then I wish you the best of luck.
k em, get em.', and also those that have pointed me in the right direction, ten pence mostly.I did genuinely come into this with little knowledge, but with advice from here pointing in the right direction, three calls with the official receiver and two to the court, I'm in a better place to know the facts now.
Cutting down to quick, the fundamentals are this:
I pay the £300 court fee, and get my name in the pot. If I get 3 pence in the pound I'm quids in. 50p in the pound and I'm laughing. If the bankruptcy goes honestly, I should get that whither it's a year or two away.
On the other hand, where I am now is that even doing nothing is not cost free. If I didn't pay the court fee, the hearing date would be lost, and I could get the case struck out. Then her solicitors get a letter informing them as such. The default situation on a discontinued claim, especially at this late stage is for the discontinuing party to pay the costs to date.
So, if I did nothing, I might have found I court order on my doorstep in a few weeks time, as her solicitors wrote to the court saying they spent 6 hours at £120 per hour... Even to apply for a stay whilst I take stock and think would have cost me £50 in the application fee.
So, I was kind of stuck anyway - what I found out, is that is an unfortunate outcome of a civil case being in limbo once bankruptcy starts. It means that the Claimant has to pay costs if he discontinues (or loses), but even if he wins, he can't claim his own costs as they occurred during bankruptcy. Not fair, but the way it is.
Edited by JustinP1 on Friday 29th August 17:25
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff