Two Insurance Policies on One Car
Discussion
I'm in the middle of a dispute over an uninsured car with the DVLA (there's a thread on it somewhere).
They want £100 off me for failing to insure a car (which I'd sold months previously and returned all the paperwork which they managed to lose for several months).
The car in question was immediately put onto the buyers Motor Trade Insurance policy at the time of the sale in March, so the date in July when the DVLA claim it wasn't insured it actually was and had been for months.
In my next reply to them I want to point out that I couldn't have insured the car if I'd wanted to as it already had a policy on it. Can anyone here confirm if insurance companies would cross-reference a vehicle to see if it has an existing policy on it? Also I'm assuming it's illegal for 2 parties to try and insure the same vehicle independently?
I want to point out to the cretins at the DVLA that had I sought to insure the car i would have been breaking the law due to it already being covered.
Am I right in my thinking? Thanks.
They want £100 off me for failing to insure a car (which I'd sold months previously and returned all the paperwork which they managed to lose for several months).
The car in question was immediately put onto the buyers Motor Trade Insurance policy at the time of the sale in March, so the date in July when the DVLA claim it wasn't insured it actually was and had been for months.
In my next reply to them I want to point out that I couldn't have insured the car if I'd wanted to as it already had a policy on it. Can anyone here confirm if insurance companies would cross-reference a vehicle to see if it has an existing policy on it? Also I'm assuming it's illegal for 2 parties to try and insure the same vehicle independently?
I want to point out to the cretins at the DVLA that had I sought to insure the car i would have been breaking the law due to it already being covered.
Am I right in my thinking? Thanks.
pork911 said:
But you say it was insured so why the need for all this? (considering whether you could have done something you didn't attempt and wouldn't have attempted since you had sold the car
Precisely, there is no need for all this but the DVLA can't let hard material facts get in the way of their pursuit. To avoid repetition here's a link to the original thread:http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
LoonR1
I promise you the story is EXACTLY as I detailed in the other thread. There is nothing omitted.
In response to your queries:
• Letters arrived okay (I do have redirect on)
• He is NOT a trader, he services cars, and the car is for his personal use, not to sell on. There was never any question of needing to leave the new owner blank.
• A quick check on the MID online shows the car is insured.
Car was sold in March, we both signed paperwork and I popped it in the post on my way home. It goes onto his insurance that week - he has the paperwork to prove it. I cancel it on mine at the same time.
Late July, DVLA contact me saying I had an uninsured car in June. I check with friend and he hasn't received the docs back in his name. I respond to the DVLA telling them the docs were returned in March and I no longer owned the car at the time they are claiming it was uninsured.
DVLA reply back saying retrospectively telling them you no longer own the car is no excuse - fine still stands.
Mid-August: Acknowledgement arrives from DVLA stating the change of ownership. Hooray, they've found the V5.
I reply back telling them that now they have the paperwork they'll see the dates are from early March. In any event, the car was insured and if they contact the new owner (I gave them his full details inc. email and telephone number) he would be happy to prove the car was insured.
New owner receives V5 with his details on.
I await their response....
Believe me, if it wasn't so straight forward and I was guilty of omitting some serious facts I wouldn't have wasted my time giving half the story on a forum.
I promise you the story is EXACTLY as I detailed in the other thread. There is nothing omitted.
In response to your queries:
• Letters arrived okay (I do have redirect on)
• He is NOT a trader, he services cars, and the car is for his personal use, not to sell on. There was never any question of needing to leave the new owner blank.
• A quick check on the MID online shows the car is insured.
Car was sold in March, we both signed paperwork and I popped it in the post on my way home. It goes onto his insurance that week - he has the paperwork to prove it. I cancel it on mine at the same time.
Late July, DVLA contact me saying I had an uninsured car in June. I check with friend and he hasn't received the docs back in his name. I respond to the DVLA telling them the docs were returned in March and I no longer owned the car at the time they are claiming it was uninsured.
DVLA reply back saying retrospectively telling them you no longer own the car is no excuse - fine still stands.
Mid-August: Acknowledgement arrives from DVLA stating the change of ownership. Hooray, they've found the V5.
I reply back telling them that now they have the paperwork they'll see the dates are from early March. In any event, the car was insured and if they contact the new owner (I gave them his full details inc. email and telephone number) he would be happy to prove the car was insured.
New owner receives V5 with his details on.
I await their response....
Believe me, if it wasn't so straight forward and I was guilty of omitting some serious facts I wouldn't have wasted my time giving half the story on a forum.
Edited by Phil303 on Thursday 28th August 19:50
The car is insured; it shows up on the MID as insured; all vehicles owned by him (3 cars for personal/business, a works van and 2 loan cars) are covered and it HAS happened.
I don't know what you stand to gain by claiming otherwise. The DVLA haven't got a flawless reputation for common sense or efficiency and this incident highlights their failings yet again.
I don't know what you stand to gain by claiming otherwise. The DVLA haven't got a flawless reputation for common sense or efficiency and this incident highlights their failings yet again.
LoonR1 said:
Ok I'll be very explicit.
The issue here is just that the OP didn't relinquish RK status. How and why are open to conjecture, but he admits to getting the insurance chaser letters and not doing anything then. That would prompt most people to do something, such as check that DVLA had correctly updated their ownership records.
I don't care if I come across as a cynic on threads like this. The OP had many chances to correct this and chose to ignore them.
Not so fast sunshine. You're completely wrong.The issue here is just that the OP didn't relinquish RK status. How and why are open to conjecture, but he admits to getting the insurance chaser letters and not doing anything then. That would prompt most people to do something, such as check that DVLA had correctly updated their ownership records.
I don't care if I come across as a cynic on threads like this. The OP had many chances to correct this and chose to ignore them.
The only correspondence I received regarding no insurance was from the DVLA in July and I DID respond. I've responded to everything sent by the DVLA. I've clearly stated this.
I DID relinquish RK in March when the car was sold. I posted the signed V5 as required - my obligation was fulfilled. The DVLA sat on it for months as in August they finally recognised the change of RK. Again, this has been stated.
The new owner has the paperwork to prove the car is properly covered. I've spoken to him about this matter and I've even checked the database myself and the car is insured.
The one thing I agree with on is this:
If a car is insured, then it's insured. It doesn't matter who owns it, the database checks whether it's insured.
It's a shame the DVLA are having such difficulty grasping the concept.
I've no idea how the MID / MIB works; all I know is the DVLA are fining me for a car I ceased to own and insure several months prior to their claim.
I can say that when I checked the database, the car showed up as covered.
I took issue with erroneous claims you made that I ignored or failed to act on matters. I have not ignored *anything* and I have reacted and responded to the DVLA at *every* opportunity.
If you want me to post the vehicle reg here for you to investigate further and satisfy any suspicions you have I'd be willing to do so.
I can say that when I checked the database, the car showed up as covered.
I took issue with erroneous claims you made that I ignored or failed to act on matters. I have not ignored *anything* and I have reacted and responded to the DVLA at *every* opportunity.
If you want me to post the vehicle reg here for you to investigate further and satisfy any suspicions you have I'd be willing to do so.
Just to clarify few issues raised in these last posts:
I did not have insurance on the car; I no longer owned it at the time the DVLA are claiming it was uninsured. However the new owner DID have it covered long before the same period of time the DVLA are disputing. This can be proved. Documentation can be produced to support this.
I'll ask him what date his V5 shows. The one we signed will was dated in March; it'll be interesting to see what date the DVLA chose to use.
Unfortunately as he is an acquaintance neither of us thought of writing out a receipt at the time of the sale. As he'd serviced the car all the time I'd owned it he knew it was in decent shape so there was nothing signed to confirm the sale, other than the cheque used to pay me.
Car does show up on the motor trade insurance database. In my last letter to the DVLA I advised them to check themselves. Maybe they have and seen they are wrong. Here's hoping.
I'm feeling a lot more confident now; whatever stance the DVLA take there is a firm and positive rebuttal.
I did not have insurance on the car; I no longer owned it at the time the DVLA are claiming it was uninsured. However the new owner DID have it covered long before the same period of time the DVLA are disputing. This can be proved. Documentation can be produced to support this.
I'll ask him what date his V5 shows. The one we signed will was dated in March; it'll be interesting to see what date the DVLA chose to use.
Unfortunately as he is an acquaintance neither of us thought of writing out a receipt at the time of the sale. As he'd serviced the car all the time I'd owned it he knew it was in decent shape so there was nothing signed to confirm the sale, other than the cheque used to pay me.
Car does show up on the motor trade insurance database. In my last letter to the DVLA I advised them to check themselves. Maybe they have and seen they are wrong. Here's hoping.
I'm feeling a lot more confident now; whatever stance the DVLA take there is a firm and positive rebuttal.
Change of RK dated 28 February 2014 as recorded on the new V5 issued to him by the DVLA. This date is the day of sale. From that date on I had no interest or responsibility towards the car, so from then on the failure to insure claim is groundless. The DVLA claim I had failed to insure the car on a date in June.
Insurance: New owner is comprehensively covered on every vehicle the company/he owns. Policy is with Aviva.
DVLA responded this morning STILL insistent I am liable.
A very short and concise letter will be heading back to them today.
Insurance: New owner is comprehensively covered on every vehicle the company/he owns. Policy is with Aviva.
DVLA responded this morning STILL insistent I am liable.
A very short and concise letter will be heading back to them today.
LoonR1 said:
Where I'm struggling with this is that the new V5 says transfer of ownership in Feb, no insurance in June.
The process is this:
Registration numbers checked by the MIB against MID -----> uninsured vehicles identified ---> these vehicles checked against RK records ---> letter sent to RK to advise to insure or face penalty ---> 2nd and final warning sent ---> fine issued.
So if the car was insured from Feb and the transfer of ownership was completed in Feb how is this possible? The OP also states that the transfer date is now confirmed as Feb, it that differs for what he said earlier and that it's only just come through.
Unless the MIB are using data that's four months out of date then this can't happen.
In answer to the above, I never received a letter advising to insure. The first correspondence was from the DVLA saying 'Here's your £100 fine for having failed to insure this vehicle (note: past tense). There was no first, second and/or final warning.The process is this:
Registration numbers checked by the MIB against MID -----> uninsured vehicles identified ---> these vehicles checked against RK records ---> letter sent to RK to advise to insure or face penalty ---> 2nd and final warning sent ---> fine issued.
So if the car was insured from Feb and the transfer of ownership was completed in Feb how is this possible? The OP also states that the transfer date is now confirmed as Feb, it that differs for what he said earlier and that it's only just come through.
Unless the MIB are using data that's four months out of date then this can't happen.
That letter was received in late July. I cancelled my insurance when I sold the car in Feb. At that time I cancelled my insurance and the new owner started theirs. Nothing unusual there.
Date on new RK V5 gives the 28th Feb as the change date. It doesn't differ from what I've said. I stated that the ACKNOWLEDGEMENT SLIP came to me in mid-August, around the same time the new RK received the V5 with the February date on. It took the DVLA 6 months to finally process the change.
Here's what happened in all probability: DVLA receive V5 shortly after car sold, lose it and don't log change. When my old insurance policy *would* have been up for renewal, it's get's flagged up as they don't know the car has changed hands and waste no time in sending out the fine.
Steffan said:
Taking the comments of the OP at face value it would seem the cars was sold in February and the DVLA have now registered this fact. This being the case it is difficult to see how the OP could be responsible for any failing in the car at all from the date of ownership change which has been effected aparrently. It s something of a mystery.
Absolutely. Everything I have posted here is exactly what's happened. There's no crucial fact omitted.I've written back to the DVLA this morning stating that now the date of RK change is verified as Feb I am not obliged for anything to do with the car from that date onwards.
I'll stop posting here as the main issue is equally covered under the original topic http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by Phil303 on Wednesday 10th September 10:20
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