20 limit on a motorway gantry?!
Discussion
Can anyone tell me if I"m to expect a court summons for this...?
On the M4 going past Newport yesterday evening at around 11pm, the overhead gantries were displaying 50. Lane 1 was coned off for road works. I was in Lane 3 behind a 44-tonner who was sitting on the limiter at ~56. We were overtaking slower traffic in L2, travelling at 45-50.
This part of the M4 is very twisty and your view ahead is hampered by plenty of overhead obstructions (low bridges, tunnels etc).
We came to the end of the roadworks and another gantry. I was unable to read what was on the gantry as my view ahead was partially blocked by the HGV in front and a low bridge. I expected the limit to read 50 and I checked that my speedo was going to match this.
As the HGV in front went under the gantry I could finally see that it read...20 mph!! I had maybe 2 seconds to brake to >20, if I could.
Obviously i couldn't (and an emergency stop on the motorway would have been suicidal), and I went through the gantry at around 40mph. All other traffic around me was doing 40-56 mph through this gantry.
Is this 20 limit at all enforceable? It seemed a mistake for it to be on the sign at all (clear, dry conditions, no workforce in road etc). I've got a fuzzy recollection that 40 is the minimum enforceable speed on a motorway - is this at all correct?
ACPO guidelines suggest a summons would be issued for speeds above 35 in a 20 limit - I was certainly doing that, but so was all other traffic on the road. Are we all to expect to be dragged in front of the beak and receive driving bans?!
On the M4 going past Newport yesterday evening at around 11pm, the overhead gantries were displaying 50. Lane 1 was coned off for road works. I was in Lane 3 behind a 44-tonner who was sitting on the limiter at ~56. We were overtaking slower traffic in L2, travelling at 45-50.
This part of the M4 is very twisty and your view ahead is hampered by plenty of overhead obstructions (low bridges, tunnels etc).
We came to the end of the roadworks and another gantry. I was unable to read what was on the gantry as my view ahead was partially blocked by the HGV in front and a low bridge. I expected the limit to read 50 and I checked that my speedo was going to match this.
As the HGV in front went under the gantry I could finally see that it read...20 mph!! I had maybe 2 seconds to brake to >20, if I could.
Obviously i couldn't (and an emergency stop on the motorway would have been suicidal), and I went through the gantry at around 40mph. All other traffic around me was doing 40-56 mph through this gantry.
Is this 20 limit at all enforceable? It seemed a mistake for it to be on the sign at all (clear, dry conditions, no workforce in road etc). I've got a fuzzy recollection that 40 is the minimum enforceable speed on a motorway - is this at all correct?
ACPO guidelines suggest a summons would be issued for speeds above 35 in a 20 limit - I was certainly doing that, but so was all other traffic on the road. Are we all to expect to be dragged in front of the beak and receive driving bans?!
This was the gantry (look straight ahead):
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Newport,+UK&hl=...
See how your forward view of the gantries, on this stretch of managed motorway, is severely hampered by twists and turns and low bridges? I was following the HGV at an entirely safe distance (for stopping purposes), but the size of that vehicle only served to further block my view.
All speed limits were displayed in red circles (i.e. not the flashing yellow advisory types).
The gantry a couple of hundred yards behind was clearly showing 50 - this had been the limit ever since the Bryn Glas tunnels.
If I had seen the (nonsensical) 20 limit displayed, absolutely slammed on the anchors to decelerate from 50 to 20 and then been rear ended as a result - am I expected to feel all warm and fuzzy that, despite the fact that I am now in a wheelchair, the chap behind me was breaking the law?
The 20 limit was quite clearly a mistake - good road conditions, free flowing traffic and no oncoming vehicles! Would this actually be enforced, or enforceable, if someone had simply pressed the wrong button in a Highways Agency/Traffic Wales control room?
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Newport,+UK&hl=...
See how your forward view of the gantries, on this stretch of managed motorway, is severely hampered by twists and turns and low bridges? I was following the HGV at an entirely safe distance (for stopping purposes), but the size of that vehicle only served to further block my view.
All speed limits were displayed in red circles (i.e. not the flashing yellow advisory types).
The gantry a couple of hundred yards behind was clearly showing 50 - this had been the limit ever since the Bryn Glas tunnels.
If I had seen the (nonsensical) 20 limit displayed, absolutely slammed on the anchors to decelerate from 50 to 20 and then been rear ended as a result - am I expected to feel all warm and fuzzy that, despite the fact that I am now in a wheelchair, the chap behind me was breaking the law?
The 20 limit was quite clearly a mistake - good road conditions, free flowing traffic and no oncoming vehicles! Would this actually be enforced, or enforceable, if someone had simply pressed the wrong button in a Highways Agency/Traffic Wales control room?
covboy said:
As you have now found out - Safe travelling distance is not only about stopping distances
Would you have also done an almost-emergency stop in the outside lane of a free-flowing motorway with a Transit up your arse because (and only because) of a little number displayed on a gantry above your head?covboy said:
No – I would hopefully be travelling far enough behind the vehicle in front (no matter what type) to see the overhead gantries in advance and adjust my speed accordingly well beforehand.
I was referring to any traffic behind you which might slam into your rear if you suddenly decided to slam on the anchors.All other traffic cracked on through the 20 gantry at 40-50 mph - and after another couple of hundred yards there was another gantry displaying the NSL sign.
Will Newport magistrates find themselves dishing out a sudden flurry of driving bans because Traffic Wales pressed the 20 button instead of the 50 button in the M4 control room?
speedking31 said:
In another thread it was stated that the 50 shown in the OP's Google street view would apply to all 3 lanes (common sense). I can't understand that. But then if the intent was to have NSL in lanes 2 and 3, why not show NSL roundels above those lanes?
I realise that there are different lane divider markings between lanes 1 and 2, but its not written anywhere that that dictates the applicability of any speed limit.
OP which lane were you in? It is feasible that lane 1 showed a different limit from lanes 2 and 3.
I was in Lane 3, overtaking slower traffic in Lane 2. Lane 1 was closed due to road works. The gantries were displaying a red cross for L1 and - at the point I'm talking about - 20 limits for L2 and L3. For the previous mile or so the gantries had been displaying 50 limits for L2 and L3, with a red cross for the closed L1.I realise that there are different lane divider markings between lanes 1 and 2, but its not written anywhere that that dictates the applicability of any speed limit.
OP which lane were you in? It is feasible that lane 1 showed a different limit from lanes 2 and 3.
Much as I'm being lambasted for supposedly tailgating an HGV, my point is that 20 is an extremely dangerous speed to drive at on a live motorway, unless so compelled by sheer weight of traffic, or - as littleredrooster pointed out - an oncoming vehicle. Neither were present on this clear, free-flowing stretch of motorway in the late evening.
Braking from 50 to 20 at a moment's notice - and, yes, it was a moment's notice (sightlines on that stretch of the M4 really are bloody awful, regardless of whether you're behind an HGV or a Caterham) - is effectively suicidal.
devnull said:
Eastbound, there are two sets also, first set is immediately before the caerleon exit, the second set is is the second gantry out of the tunnels.
By the Caerleon exit - do you mean J26 eastbound (before you enter the tunnels)? So here: https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Cardiff&dad...I presume this is what you mean by the second gantry out of the tunnels? https://maps.google.com/?ll=51.604925,-2.985449&am...
Cheers
devnull said:
OP, were you travelling westbound or eastbound?
first set is immediately before the caerleon exit
Presumably you mean the Caerloen entry slip? https://maps.google.com/?ll=51.604771,-2.984183&am...first set is immediately before the caerleon exit
Good to know these things - I make that journey often enough!
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff