Witness In Court - Claiming Lost Earnings

[Macadoodle]

Later this month I have to appear at Magistrates Court as a witness for the prosecution team. I work shift work and the court date falls on a day where I am meant to be working a twelve hour day shift.

In my terms and conditions of employment, there is no mention of what the company will do with regards to payment on such an occasion. I spoke to the welfare dept, who said they will treat it as they do jury service.

This means they would pay me my basic dialy rate of 7.5 hours pay. However, because I work this particular shift pattern, my 'normal' wage for that day would be 12 hours at the shift rate which is 17.5% of my hourly rate on top of the hours worked.
For example, if my hourly rate was £10, my employer would normally pay me £141 for that particular day (before tax etc.). As they will only pay the 'normal' 7.5 hours (£75), I will be considerably out of pocket (my actual hourly rate is a fair bit more than that, I just used £10 as it made it easier to do the sums).

As my employer will pay me part of the money for that day, is it simply a case of claiming the other part from the court? The welfare dept has said I must get a Certificate of Loss of Earnings that they can fill out. I've since found out that this only applies for jury service and that witnesses must use expenses claim forms.

On the gov.uk website it says the maximum I can claim for 4 hours (which it's expected to take) is £33.50 - it looks like I'm going to be well and truly shafted in the wallet for doing a good deed and I can't even get out of it!

Is there a way I can be paid what I should, or am I going to be shafted?

[Macadoodle]

WinstonWolf said:

TooMany2cvs said:

ikarl said:

What if the OP is dependant on the money that he will lose?

Perhaps you missed that his employer is willing to pay him his normal daily rate. What he's missing out on is the extra which he would have been paid for working a long shift - which he isn't working.

Which he has been prevented from working...

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear in my original post. ALL my shifts are twelve hours. It forms part of the shift pattern I do. I haven't done a 'normal' 7.5 hour shift for thirteen years. I would prefer to be at work earning money that day, but as WinstonWolf says, I am being prevented from doing so by the court. What's even more annoying is that the court date was moved from a date which was a 'rest' day, to this one that falls on a day I am meant to be working!

[Macadoodle]

TooMany2cvs said:

If ever you're involved in a court case as either the victim or the accused, I hope none of the witnesses you'll be relying on will put their pocket above justice.

Justice trumps pocket - you're not allowed to say 'no'

This is the bit that grates. The fact that they can compel you to attend court, but not reimburse you for the earnings that are lost. I want to see the defendant prosecuted (that's why I made a statement to the police), but it's a bit galling that I should effectively have to pay for the privilege (of course with no guarantee that what I say in court will make any difference).

[Macadoodle]

LoonR1 said:

As you were previously happy to do this on a rest day, why not swap your rest day that week?

I would be happy to do that. Unfortunately work will not allow it.

[Macadoodle]

Breadvan72 said:

OP, try to be philosophical and see this as the price of living in a civilized society. Sometimes the burden falls unevenly. It's one of those things. Can you not prevail on the good will of a colleague to swap shifts?

BV - even if a work colleague was to agree to do it, it wouldn't work out. The rules are a bit complicated, but it would mean we were both paid a premium on top of our normal pay as we weren't doing our own shifts and the management would not sanction this. Also we would not be able to clock in on each others clock cards for insurance reasons (not to mention it's a sackable offence). Thanks for your input, though.

ETA: Looks like I'm going to have to swallow it. Wouldn't be so bad if I was <i>choosing</i> to go to court. I don't have that choice. When I made my statement to the police, I really didn't expect to end up in court. It's pretty obvious the defendant is guilty - even the police can't understand why they are contesting it.

Edited by Macadoodle on Wednesday 8th October 16:19

[Macadoodle]

geeks said:

Why not book a days leave? or just ask your boss if there is some sort of agreement you could come to and do a couple of extra hours somewhere so he doesn't feel out of pocket paying you your shift rate?

TheBear said:

If you are only there for 4 hours can you not make up the extra time and go to work for 4.5 hours after, thus bringing you up to 12?

A days leave is looking the simplest option, where I would lose the least amount of money. Just annoying I will have to use up some of my holiday entitlement. The extra hours idea is not an option where I work unfortunately.

Tribal Chestnut said:

Breadvan72 said:

Derr. I get paid to go to court because it's my job, apart from when I act pro bono. If I was going to court as a witness or juror I wouldn't get paid.

You're stupidly rich though. So the loss of a days, or even a few weeks earnings, would be a drop in the ocean to you.

I don't think there's any need for that. What someone is paid is irrelevant - it's the fact that you don't get reimbursed for your loss, whilst having no choice but to attend court.

[Macadoodle]

Breadvan72 said:

Alas, I'm not even sensibly rich. I have a good income, but have no accumulated wealth. I would very much notice not earning for several weeks, and do every time I am off sick or have a holiday.

Is it the court that is keeping the OP from earning, or the rigidity of his employer? If we are going to pay everyone who attends court at their full rate, are people OK with the tax increase to pay for that?

In my view it is the court that is keeping me from earning. My employer doesn't have to pay me at all. The gov.uk website states: 'Your employer does not have to pay you for time off work when you appear as a witness' They are effectively paying me the same as jury service as a goodwill gesture. If they had decided not to so, I would be even more out of pocket.

And yes, I do believe the courts should pay people their full rate (indeed before I started looking into all this I thought it was the case). I suspect there is enough wasted revenue within the system to cover the costs of doing this.

[Macadoodle]

WinstonWolf said:

Breadvan72 said:

The criminal courts are run on a shoestring so the money would have to come from elsewhere. Your employer is choosing to be inflexible about swapping shifts, for reasons that aren't clear.

The courts rescheduled for reasons that are not clear.

How is the courts funding his problem?

BV - I didn't mean that the waste was particularly within the criminal courts, more that tax revenue in general gets spent on things it shouldn't, where it could be more wisely allocated.

My employer isn't being particularly inflexible about swapping shifts - it's just the way it works out. There are hard and fast rules about shift work in my terms and conditions and the scope for flexibility just isn't there, unfortunately.

The offence happened back in January, and the original court date was set for July. The court wrote to me in June to say that the trial was unable to take place in July and was rescheduled for October. They didn't give a reason.

LoonR1 said:

No. It will have the impact of 4.5 hours pay less tax on a normal weekly wage of 60 hours, assuming 5 days at 12 hours per day. So it will be 7.5% gross less this week. Over a year it isn't sifgnificiant, over a moth it isnt, over a week, possibly, over a day yes.

In the week in question, I am meant to be working four day shifts (48 hours), so I don't know how that works out as a percentage of that particular week.

WinstonWolf said:

You can probably afford to lose 7.5% unnoticed, to the op it might be the difference between a full and an empty fridge.

I did a very quick rough working out, and it amounts over £120 difference between having to go to court and not having to go to court (before any expenses are claimed for). Coupled with the fact that my wife's car goes for its MOT tomorrow, the tax on my car runs out this month and last night my boiler went kaput, means it has come at the wrong time for me really (not fishing for sympathy, just saying how it is).

[Macadoodle]

Sorry, forgot to add that £120 is before tax etc. Still not peanuts.

[Macadoodle]

Wow - lots of view regarding my income!

Drawweight said:

Let me recap...you're losing £120 for 4 hours off your normal 12 hour shift.

Now by my simple maths this means you earn £360 per shift.

Aww diddums how can you possibly survive.

TooMany2cvs said:

If one third of your daily income is £120, then you're still getting paid £240 for that day. If you work 20 days per month, then you're earning £7,200 per month, £86,400 per year - yes, before tax.

£86k? That would be nice No, I don't earn that. I don't work the number of shifts that you suggested. If you go back on the thread you'll see my income is made up with a shift rate percentage premium because of the long anti-social hours I do as part of my job, its not as simple as you think.

Mound Dawg said:

Any jobs going there?

No, they are making people redundant. I'm one of the lucky ones keeping their job.

walm said:

His boiler's gone so he is a home-owner - the 1% (ex-London) house price inflation over the last year from the government printing money will easily put him quids in relative to this lost £120.

Eh? Your saying that because my house has gone up in value then it's all ok then? What an odd thing to say. How do know I'm not in negative equity?


As it happens, I had the boiler fixed today. The cost?

£120

I think that is known as Sod's Law...

[Macadoodle]

TooMany2cvs said:

Macadoodle said:

If you go back on the thread you'll see my income is made up with a shift rate percentage premium because of the long anti-social hours I do as part of my job

Exactly. And you're not doing those long anti-social hours, so why should you get the premium which is intended to compensate for that?

As I only work that shift pattern, the shift rate is applied to my hourly rate - not each individual shift. I'd like to have the choice of working my normal shift, but that has been taken away from me by the court.

[Macadoodle]

Just thought I'd update this thread for those of you who were on the edge of your seat...

The court date is next week so I decided to have a chat with my shift supervisor. I explained it all about the fact that as I'm a witness, and not doing jury service, the court won't give me a Certificate of Loss of Earnings and I'd only get the thirty odd quid expenses for the time I'd be at court, whilst having to take a whole day off work.

His reply was "Well, that's total bks", and has come to the rescue. I think it appealed to his inner shop steward (he is the staff union rep) as he was annoyed at the combination of red tape and injustice.
The plan now is to go to court and give my evidence, but rather than go home after, I will go into work and do the rest of my shift. He said he will sign my clock card giving me permission to be away from work, and what's more, will ensure that I am paid from my normal start time too! He also said bks to the Welfare dept and managment as well, and that what they dont know wont hurt them. Happy days

[Macadoodle]

hora said:

OP you arent having to slave away for 12hours for once. You are being paid a standard days wage for little time/input in return for doing your civic duty.

Jesus wept

hora, perhaps you missed the post where I said I won't be getting a standard days wage? The court don't issue a Certificate of Loss of Earnings for witnesses, only jury service. The most they give is expenses, which is a lot less. Thankfully my supervisor stepped in to sort things out. As it happens I was in court for about seven hours, so not exactly a five minute job.

As for Jesus, he'd receive more, what with being a self employed carpenter


Anyway, the end result of all this is that the defendant was found guilty of all charges. Careless driving, failing to stop at the scene of an accident and failing to report the accident. Seven points and a fine of £260.
If it wasn't for my statement they would have got off.

Job done