Telling "friend" from "foe".. armed forces on the street.
Discussion
How do SP&L feel about having armed officers on the street, as well as plain clothed undercover armed forces personnel?
In France, armed forces patrol the streets of Paris routinely and openly, ready to combat a Mumbai or Westgate style terrorist attack.
They are easily identifiable, being in regular uniform, and patrol in three man teams.
However the UK undercover soldiers are in plain clothes - so if a MTFA kicks off, how are police officers supposed to tell them from terrorists?
Is this because the UK Govt do not think the public would be reassured by armed forces on the streets, or have they just not thought it through?
I see that a warning was published to police officers, stating that they as individuals could become a target - presumably because of intelligence or chatter - yet only a few MoP seem to have picked up on the fact they could be collateral damage were a better armed Lee Rigby style attack launched against armed forces personnel or police officers... and they COULD be targets in their own right.
In France, armed forces patrol the streets of Paris routinely and openly, ready to combat a Mumbai or Westgate style terrorist attack.
They are easily identifiable, being in regular uniform, and patrol in three man teams.
However the UK undercover soldiers are in plain clothes - so if a MTFA kicks off, how are police officers supposed to tell them from terrorists?
Is this because the UK Govt do not think the public would be reassured by armed forces on the streets, or have they just not thought it through?
I see that a warning was published to police officers, stating that they as individuals could become a target - presumably because of intelligence or chatter - yet only a few MoP seem to have picked up on the fact they could be collateral damage were a better armed Lee Rigby style attack launched against armed forces personnel or police officers... and they COULD be targets in their own right.
walm said:
I don't know about undercover but the capital was chock full of armed police yesterday.
All over both Waterloo and Liverpool Street - which is unusual.
Probably going to shoot anyone with a temperature or sneezing.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/uk-terr...All over both Waterloo and Liverpool Street - which is unusual.
Probably going to shoot anyone with a temperature or sneezing.
The Independent said:
Britain’s 130,000 police officers were urged to be “vigilant for their personal safety” after counter-terror chiefs warned the threat level against them had increased in the past 24 hours.
Mark Rowley, the national lead for counter-terrorism at the Association of Chief Police Officers, refused to discuss specific intelligence but confirmed the threat level against detectives and support staff up and down the country had been “heightened”.
That undisclosed intelligence might well be...Mark Rowley, the national lead for counter-terrorism at the Association of Chief Police Officers, refused to discuss specific intelligence but confirmed the threat level against detectives and support staff up and down the country had been “heightened”.
NBC said:
According to a Joint Intelligence bulletin from the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security sent to U.S. law enforcement officials, an ISIS spokesman recorded an audio message that urged lone offenders in Western countries to attack “soldiers, patrons, and troops … their police, security and intelligence members.” Attackers did not need to “ask for anyone’s advice” prior to striking, said the message, because such actions are legitimate.
An English language translation of the message, which was attributed to ISIS spokesman Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, was posted on a jihadi forum in late September.
plus the fact police have arrested several men in connection with a suspected terrorist plat, and a gun and ammunition were recovered.An English language translation of the message, which was attributed to ISIS spokesman Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, was posted on a jihadi forum in late September.
It would not be the first time that special forces have been used - they were used against an IRA cell operating in Gibraltar, resulting in the deaths of all three suspects.
La Liga said:
Where in the UK do we have armed undercover soldiers?
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/N...The Sunday Times said:
UNDERCOVER soldiers have been deployed at four big shopping centres in London and the West Midlands amid fears of a terrorist gun attack by British jihadists returning from Syria, security sources said yesterday.
Sorry, I thought you all knew. 
Uncle John said:
Uniformed soldiers patrolling the streets on the UK mainland is and always will be a no no, it means you've lost control. Something no ruling party wants on their record.
There are plain clothed armed officers SO19 and there is also a London based SAS detachment.
Curious that UK Gov. thinks uniformed soldiers would be perceived that way. There are plain clothed armed officers SO19 and there is also a London based SAS detachment.
In Paris, nobody gives them a second glance - although of course they do have the Gendarmerie in France which is more military in operation than police, so perhaps they don't find the camo clad soldiers much different.
I'm sure Lewis Collins won't be missed - they'll probably have Sean Bean stand in, or Pierce Brosnan!
The threat in this case is a MTFA in a major shopping mall or city centre from people who in previous cases have simply set out to mow down as many members of the public as possible - not I would have thought the usual threat facing armed police, so I guess that is why special forces have been considered.
They also have access to team members with appropriate language skills.
They also have access to team members with appropriate language skills.
sebhaque said:
I would be very surprised if UK policemen/armed forces are allowed to parade around with the ability to use any concealed weapons.
I would have thought terrorist training 101 would have been to just shout, "Police, hands up" or something similarly authoritative. I certainly wouldn't believe someone in a polo shirt and jeans if they said they were an undercover squaddie.
Precisely.I would have thought terrorist training 101 would have been to just shout, "Police, hands up" or something similarly authoritative. I certainly wouldn't believe someone in a polo shirt and jeans if they said they were an undercover squaddie.
If a MTFA kicked off how would the police react, if there are other agencies with firearms, who are not in uniform or readily identified to them?
The De Menezes case highlighted shortcomings in the police command/communications structure, which in the light of the Duggan shooting, do not seem to have been addressed.
I believe that risk assessment is best undertaken at the point of risk - but this does not yet seem to be the case in the Met.
Perhaps this is why the SF have been brought in?
hora said:
If any ANY armed officer heldback upon hearing gunfire in a UK shopping centre knowing the background of previous and obvious ongoing loss of life I'd like that officer (s) tarred/feathered and flogged. You hold back if its criminal/armed etc as you know standard crims dont indiscriminally shoot women and children. In addition your training goes someway to offset any poorly trained number superiority to a degree.
As I understand his post, I don't think Mel questioned the working of officers on the ground - it was the management structure he was critical of.Mel said:
I have no doubt that the guys on the ground are brave enough but the training is lacking and the management are scared to commit them to risk.
La Liga said:
I still expect in a real scenario that unless the shooter specifically saves ammunition he'll / she'll run out prior to any response in a spontaneous incident.
Shortage of weapons and ammunition does not seem to be a problem!http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2567127/As...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/one-uks-bigge...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10699...
In both the Mumbai and Westgate incidents, large quantities of munitions were used, as well as improvised explosives.
Tactics can be found on the internet, so it does not take a great deal of planning to mount such an attack.
moribund said:
I'd prefer they carried on being trained to do everything they can to not shoot someone. Since the London bombings more unarmed members of the British public have been killed by Police officers than by terrorists, so maintaining a bit of perspective might be good.
Reason to worry if you were an undercover special forces operative with a concealed weapon??http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29662245
Lone wolf may be one or two individuals who operate independently of known persons of interest.
I see these individuals have been "caught" using StreetView to plan their attacks.
Lone wolf may be one or two individuals who operate independently of known persons of interest.
I see these individuals have been "caught" using StreetView to plan their attacks.
emmaT2014 said:
As far as France is concerned, I couldn't give a toss. As long as their police and border control are satisfied in witnessing illegal immigrants helping each other into UK bound transport, the French can be considered as contributing to the current security risk in the UK. I would be happy if the tunnel was concreted up and the ports were shut. Eases the security situation and keeps out a certain African origin virus...oh and the French.
As I understand it, the French blame our attractive benefits and health care system, and are not happy with being saddled with the cost of policing their borders of people who wish to leave... while in our country, we won't let them leave if they don't have a passport!!I got caught up in an anti terrorist exercise in Le havre a few years ago which delayed our ferry.
when I (jokingly) suggested they would be better practicing at Calais, I was told they are so busy they simply don't have time for exercises.
In general, I have found the French are far less tolerant of all manner of anti social behaviour, and even a large number of the general population are not upset if the security forces rough up suspects, or use violence against criminal elements.
They are presently under fire for their attitude towards Gypsies whom they are repatriating with a degree of force not deemed acceptable in the UK.
Perhaps if the UK adopted a similar approach, we would not suffer so many of the activities that blight our streets - at the expense of the loss of a degree of personal freedoms.
grumpy52 said:
Trust me , having weapons pointed at you by police or army is not fun !
Once by armed Special Branch .
Once by German Border Police
Once by police armed response team (training exercise volunteer)
Many times at army checkpoints
I bet you'd be more nervous if you were undercover and actually carrying a weapon!Once by armed Special Branch .
Once by German Border Police
Once by police armed response team (training exercise volunteer)
Many times at army checkpoints
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-29753347
Yet another, this time with an axe.
ISIS have called upon sympathisers in the west to rise up in this manner, against the police and armed forces at home, so this could potentially happen in any western country at any time.
All it takes is one fanatic to listen and heed the call...
Yet another, this time with an axe.
ISIS have called upon sympathisers in the west to rise up in this manner, against the police and armed forces at home, so this could potentially happen in any western country at any time.
All it takes is one fanatic to listen and heed the call...
hora said:
Callous but I rather none of them cameback. Damaged goods doesnt even start to describe such people.
Plenty more to take their place unfortunately.I notice that the recent events in Canada have sharpened attention somewhat.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/111...
Following the Charlie Hebdo attack, there appears to have been a copycat attack which has resulted in the death of a policewoman.
Any chance that some radicalised fundamentalist in the UK might seek his own path to glory?
In December, there were two separate incidences of drivers simply ploughing into pedestrians in France - and as a result 300 additional troops were drafted onto the streets... to no avail as yet.
Any chance that some radicalised fundamentalist in the UK might seek his own path to glory?
In December, there were two separate incidences of drivers simply ploughing into pedestrians in France - and as a result 300 additional troops were drafted onto the streets... to no avail as yet.
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